Notice of Prosecution

[bubblelife]

It would appear that all the documents have been served on you correctly, therefore you have no defence against them there.

It appears that you did not purchase a ticket before you got on the train, or whilst on the train.

It appears that due to a long queue you choose to ignore the last chance to purchase a ticket at Crewe.

It appears that you were then apprehended by an Inspector.

You now appear to be clutching at straws to get out of your mess, despite numerous people explaining why you broke the Law.

Enjoy your day in Court because it looks like it might be expensive!

Well excuse me for asking for advice. I am quite well aware of the fact I broke the law thank you very much - and I won't be attending court, but I will very much enjoy my day at work, as I won't be travelling by train.

 

[Agent_c]

Well excuse me for asking for advice. I am quite well aware of the fact I broke the law thank you very much - and I won't be attending court, but I will very much enjoy my day at work, as I won't be travelling by train.

The advice that can be given is limited by the facts. You won't find people advising you to lie or do anything unethical.

The rules are what they are. If all the boxes are ticked, then all the boxes are ticked.

It strikes me that not being there is a bad idea. If you have any plea, even in mitigation, you should be there to make it. There is also the chance of having a quiet word to the prosecutor beforehand that prevents the black mark going on your record.

 

[al.currie93]

I see that you're nervous, I would be too if I were in that situation, so I'll try to advise as best I can - my advice only comes from reading other threads, so you may wish to check others too!

From reading through this entire thread, what it sounds like is that you were unable to pay the train fare due to not being able to use the machine and not having the opportunity to pay the guard. However you then left the station without paying and were caught, which was a mistake and is what brought about the charges.

It now seems like you've been summoned to court, which I would definitely recommend attending, otherwise the charges will only increase and you will probably end up in deeper trouble.

From reading other similar threads about court summons, it seems that you may be able to negotiate an out-of-court settlement with the TOC representative on the day - it will likely mean a hefty fine, but will avoid potentially getting a criminal record. Other than that, dress smart, be polite, apologetic and admit to your mistake.

As I say, I'm no expert on this, but that is the best advice I can give based on reading other threads. Good luck

 

[bubblelife]

I see that you're nervous, I would be too if I were in that situation, so I'll try to advise as best I can - my advice only comes from reading other threads, so you may wish to check others too!

From reading through this entire thread, what it sounds like is that you were unable to pay the train fare due to not being able to use the machine and not having the opportunity to pay the guard. However you then left the station without paying and were caught, which was a mistake and is what brought about the charges.

It now seems like you've been summoned to court, which I would definitely recommend attending, otherwise the charges will only increase and you will probably end up in deeper trouble.

From reading other similar threads about court summons, it seems that you may be able to negotiate an out-of-court settlement with the TOC representative on the day - it will likely mean a hefty fine, but will avoid potentially getting a criminal record. Other than that, dress smart, be polite, apologetic and admit to your mistake.

As I say, I'm no expert on this, but that is the best advice I can give based on reading other threads. Good luck

Thanks to you and Agent C. I've just been to Crewe to drop off my paperwork saying I won't attend, so thats that I suppose. How can you negotiate an out of court settlement, once you're in court? The legal system is beyond me.
It is also beyond me that an issue of £6.60 should result in a court case. But, then, I just seem to have a bad attitude.

 

[DaleCooper]

Thanks to you and Agent C. I've just been to Crewe to drop off my paperwork saying I won't attend, so thats that I suppose. How can you negotiate an out of court settlement, once you're in court? The legal system is beyond me.
It is also beyond me that an issue of £6.60 should result in a court case. But, then, I just seem to have a bad attitude.

Yes, you do seem to have a bad attitude. Just to be clear at what monetary value should a crime be considered serious enough for a court case, £10, £100, £1000 or what?

 

[Agent_c]

Thanks to you and Agent C. I've just been to Crewe to drop off my paperwork saying I won't attend, so thats that I suppose. How can you negotiate an out of court settlement, once you're in court? The legal system is beyond me.

An out of court settlement just means that the court didn't decide the outcome, you came to it between the two parties. Having a quiet word with the prosecutor and deciding a way forward is still an out of court settlement, even if you are standing within the court building at the time. I understand with big commercial cases its quite common to be talking to the other side between courtroom bouts.

It is also beyond me that an issue of £6.60 should result in a court case. But, then, I just seem to have a bad attitude.

It generally only does if the options to avoid that have gone past without action.

 

[Llanigraham]

Well excuse me for asking for advice. I am quite well aware of the fact I broke the law thank you very much - and I won't be attending court, but I will very much enjoy my day at work, as I won't be travelling by train.

I listed the facts as we know them on this Forum, and as an ex-Court Presenting Officer in a way they may typically be put to you in Court. I would ask a direct question where the only answer was Yes or No, and any further comment could be picked up on and was invariably damning to the accused.
Sorry you don't like that, but that is the way it often works in Court.

Thanks to you and Agent C. I've just been to Crewe to drop off my paperwork saying I won't attend, so thats that I suppose. How can you negotiate an out of court settlement, once you're in court? The legal system is beyond me.
It is also beyond me that an issue of £6.60 should result in a court case. But, then, I just seem to have a bad attitude.

I presume you have submitted a Plea with Mitigating Circumstances.
At least attending Court gives you a chance to speak to the Prosecutor before the Hearing and negotiate before hand. Once in front of the Bench is too late.
The amount of the unpaid fare is immaterial, it is the fact that a Law is broken that matters. I have seen theft (shoplifting) cases for much less than that.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Yes, you do seem to have a bad attitude. Just to be clear at what monetary value should a crime be considered serious enough for a court case, £10, £100, £1000 or what?

Agreed. IMO the OP's attitude stinks.

Couldn't be bothered to pay because of a queue, now moaning that it's gone to court.

Absolutely no remorse whatsoever.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

How can you negotiate an out of court settlement, once you're in court? The legal system is beyond me.

That's a good question!
The phrase "Out-of-Court" doesn't necessarily mean the same as 'not inside the Court buildings'. It means 'not in front of the Magistrates / Judge(s) during the hearing of a claim or a prosecution.

The best way to reach an "Out-of-Court" settlement is to arrive early and make contact with the Railway Company's Prosecutor. You can ask to have a brief discussion with them - most Courts have several small conference rooms and the staff will give you access on request if they are locked.

You can use that opportunity to explain that you wish to make an offer and to ask what scope the Company has given them (the Prosecutor) to negotiate. Some will have been given more flexibility to negotiate than others. Perhaps you can swiftly reach an agreement, but if not, then just let it drop and don't detain them any longer.

 

[Llanigraham]

Dave,
It would appear from the comments of the OP earlier today that she has submitted a Plea with Mitigating Circumstances and does not intend to go to Court. Therefore her options are now somewhat limited, unless she decides to change her tune and get to the Court before they sit.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree.
My comment was confined to provding an answer to specific bubblelife's specific question (which I hoped might assist others, too), but which failed to take into account their decision not to attent.
Thanks.

 

[bubblelife]

Thanks Dave, Llanigraham, I wasn't aware that I could change my mind about attending? Are you sure it's an option, it seemed quite cut and dried on that piece of paper you have to sign - which is why i put it off until the last moment.

For the other comments - my remorse is immaterial. Intentions are not a consideration under law so I can't see how feelings would be. Personally i consider repentance to be more appropriate as that is a question of action not words. My repentance will be bourne out by my actions rather than effusive apologies, which you may find more palatable, but really achieve nothing.

And yes I am annoyed that I am going to court over £6.60, I'm annoyed that I made a stupid decision, I'm annoyed now that I have never made any claims against any network regarding all the delayed and cancelled trains I have suffered, and the one time I did complain about a train service (i fell running for a train that left the station early) and received a voucher of about £6, I never used it. I'm annoyed about all those times I got back off the train with my bike after being told by the guard there was no room and had to wait an hour for the next one, and because I like being a compliant passenger and now feel like becoming a contentious one. Particularly annoyed about the time I got on the wrong London train from Crewe (before the helpful signs about the two trains within a few minutes of each other) and had to pay the massive ticket uplift in order to be abandoned at Stafford and somehow find my way over to Watford. I could go on but I have an essay to write.

 

[jon0844]

On the plus side, now you're not going to use trains again most or all of your problems with the railway disappear.

 

[timbo58]

Intentions are not a consideration under law?

I think you'll find that they are, very much so.
After all if you were to be prosecuted for many offences then intent needs to be proven within reasonable doubt, but I think I see your point -your intention cannot be proven on that day, only your actions.
Unfortunately your actions make it extremely easy to 'prove' to most magistrates you didn't intend to pay in the normal manner of which prosecutions are errrrr 'prosecuted'.

There are often annoyances on a daily basis with using any form of transport, the key difference with public transport however is that it is very easy to find someone other than one self to blame and many times this will be entirely fair.

Certainly a train leaving early is a very serious offence and is extremely rare because of it, so if that did happen (in my 15 years in a previous rail career I was accused of 'leaving early' so many times I cannot even begin to count it, I don't genuinely believe it ever happened however and I had a radio controlled watch to ensure I knew the time to the second) then I would be taking the matter further, particularly if a slip/trip occurred as a result.

If a train leaves early then usually there is more than one passenger left behind -always worth gathering names/contact details as these certainly provide evidence an 'early departure' was likely, CCTV can also confirm this and the TOC can confirm this from their own records.

A train can carry 'X' number of cycles -thats the law, it's not the guards 'discretion' as some will argue ad nauseam, unfortunately it is inevitable that if unable to reserve a bike on a train you will have to wait for a space on the next.

Delays are always annoying, and if a compensation scheme exists it should always be used, I know I certainly would if it applied to road delays!

I am sure you know that you'll get no result in picking up the railway as a whole or individual TOCs on their 'faults' either on a rail forum or in court, although a general consumer forum might ellicit more sympathy (although no useful advice IMHO), as it merely sounds like 'sour grapes' given your situation.

I can understand your 'compliant' attitude becoming more hardened in future however, that's human nature, however irrelevant if you are now to boycott trains.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Thanks Dave, Llanigraham, I wasn't aware that I could change my mind about attending? Are you sure it's an option, it seemed quite cut and dried on that piece of paper you have to sign - which is why i put it off until the last moment.

Yes. The principle is that you can't be denied audience in your own defence.

But in practice, now that you have already informed the Court of your intentions, you should make your change of position clear in writing to both the Court and to the Prosecution, and should do so as soon as possible. In that statement you could helpfully indicate, for clarity, whether you wish to change your plea or not (which I'm assuming you do not), whether you intend introducing any evidence or witnesses (which I assume you do not but maybe you do), and whether you wish to speak in respect of your circumstances in mitigation of the sentence (which I expect you do).

More to the point, by attending, you have the opportunity to speak with the Prosecutor before your case is mentioned, and attempt that 'Out-of-Court settlement', if that is what you wish to achieve.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

More to the point, by attending, you have the opportunity to speak with the Prosecutor before your case is mentioned, and attempt that 'Out-of-Court settlement', if that is what you wish to achieve.

You should put aside any annoyance/anger issues and heed the above good advice.

This is not about you, it is about the TOC that has lost revenue because of your actions (or lack thereof)