XC enforcing invisible reservations

[Justin Smith]

At the end of the day, it's clear that the seating is reserved for users of the TMR system which anyone can of course make use of if they so wish - and plenty of people do, and appreciate the convenience.

Shocked of Sheffield would find his time is much better spent taking a couple of seconds to do a TMR himself rather than staging a one man protest, which is going to get him a lot more stressed - and, potentially inconvenienced, should he come across a member of staff rather picky about the rules - than the traincrew or indeed the seat's rightful occupant.

Let`s get back to basics, why is any train company reserving seats so that some people can reserve at the last moment over anyone else ? Take this theoretical example. I get on at Sheff to travel to Edinburgh, someone gets on at Donc and there`s no seat. What`s to stop him then using his phone to "reserve" my seat at York then kicking me out ? Well trying to kick me out anyway......
Is that how it could work or have I missed something ?
If it is how it could work far from me being "shocked from Sheffield", I`m only surprised at anyone who isn`t shocked by it ! It`s so blatantly unreasonable.
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I don't think it's an inherently bad system, in fact, quite the opposite, I totally get the advantages that it brings.
However - and this is where the problem lies for me - how can the main unreserved coach on some trains have all seats (or at least those with numbers/screens) on this system (the whole of coach C). Are the numberless seats in coach D (which seems to one of the two heavily or completely reserved coaches) which comes to no more than 20 seats the only seats on the train that cannot be reserved and so you can sit in without fear of eviction?

I'm sure there's more than 20 people on the standard 4-car voyager who are completely oblivious to this system, would be rather confused at the idea that their seat is no longer their seat and would think that an unreserved seat is theirs for the journey.

I find it interesting that Virgin haven't adopted a similar scheme, despite the fact that their longer trains would actually be more appropriate.

Question : by reserving some seats on a crowded train* so that those who are "in the know" can jump the queue who is this being advantageous for ? For those "in the know" (who don`t want to think too closely about how they`ve gained a seat on a crowded train) yes it is. But for the rest, the great majority, it`s an emphatic no.
It rather reminds me of the fact that (apparently) most people are in favour of grammar schools, rather forgetting that under that under that system most kids actually go to a secondary modern, but you never hear that most people are in favour of secondary moderns, because they aren`t. The explanation ? Many (most ? ) people don`t actually think about things that much !

* if the train isn`t crowded the issue doesn`t arise, but then again, there`s no point in using a short notice reservation on it, so either way I`m not in favour of short notice seat reservations.
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I think it's interesting that none of the other operators at all have introduced a similar scheme.

And long may that continue !

 

[yorksrob]

Generally I think that anything that can force people to vacate seats mid journey which were unreserved when that person sat down, is a bad thing.

 

[Jonfun]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree Justin. Leaving morals and ethics etc aside, I think it's perfectly clear that the seats are reserved for the users of the TMR system - which, of course, anyone (in the majority) can use.

I'm also guessing you don't agree with grammar schooling, but for the sake of keeping this thread on track, I'll keep my opinions to myself...

 

[Greenback]

Generally I think that anything that can force people to vacate seats mid journey which were unreserved when that person sat down, is a bad thing.

I quite agree. I think that the entire concept is flawed. However, as long as the reservation display is clear that the seat may be reserved during the journey, then it's reasonable to expect those seats to be vacated if necessary.

I do think there are areas where improvements need to be made if this feature is to continue. From my limited experience with XC many people simply don't understand the concept, and find it difficult to read and understand the displays. At least,. that's what they claim!

 

[me123]

One thing about ten minute reservations: what's to stop you reserving your seat mid-journey? As far as I can see, nothing.

Let's say I was hypothetically travelling Edinburgh to Leeds, and sit in the TMR coach. I may not have a reservation when I get on the train at Edinburgh, but having realised what ten-minute reservations are, what is there to stop me reserving a seat from Berwick-upon-Tweed (or wherever the next stop may be)? OK, I'll almost certainly need to move seats, but then you can enjoy the rest of your journey with the assurance that no-one can remove you from your seat.

Or, of course, before you get on the train? I can't imagine that many people travelling with XC don't know what train they're catching 10 minutes before it arrives!

 

[backontrack]

Even worse are the people that refuse to move when the reservations are enforced...when there are paper reservations. That happened to me once on a HML service, when the person there refused to move because 'they were there first'.

 

[Greenback]

I have ways of encouraging those occupying my seat to move if I'm confronted with an attitude. These range form telling them I'm going to sit in my reserved seat whether they are there still there or not, to certain other tactics which I'm deliberately going to keep to myself!

 

[backontrack]

Oo-er.

 

[ag51ruk]

Re the issue of invisible reservations, it's not just XC that do this - I'm on a very busy VT 11 coach Pendolino heading north from Birmingham where the reservations are not working due to a computer problem, but at every station the train manager is announcing that you must sit in the reserved seat allocated to you and that anyone without a reservation must only sit in coaches F or U. This is causing a lot of arguments, there appear to be enough seats to go round so she should just announce that there are no reservations available IMO

 

[fairysdad]

. . . and that anyone without a reservation must only sit in coaches F or U. . . .

... which is probably the response of some of the people who are about to be seat-evicted...

 

[yorksrob]

I do think there are areas where improvements need to be made if this feature is to continue. From my limited experience with XC many people simply don't understand the concept, and find it difficult to read and understand the displays. At least,. that's what they claim!

I suppose that if it were just half a carriage, and there were plenty of other seats available, then it wouldn't be such a bad thing. But this is Cross Country we're talking about, afterall !
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One thing about ten minute reservations: what's to stop you reserving your seat mid-journey? As far as I can see, nothing.

Let's say I was hypothetically travelling Edinburgh to Leeds, and sit in the TMR coach. I may not have a reservation when I get on the train at Edinburgh, but having realised what ten-minute reservations are, what is there to stop me reserving a seat from Berwick-upon-Tweed (or wherever the next stop may be)? OK, I'll almost certainly need to move seats, but then you can enjoy the rest of your journey with the assurance that no-one can remove you from your seat.

Or, of course, before you get on the train? I can't imagine that many people travelling with XC don't know what train they're catching 10 minutes before it arrives!

I already have a perfectly good way of reserving an unreserved seat when I get on the train, which works splendidly on every other TOC - parking my behind in it ! Why do we need some arty farty technological system which will inevitably involve the annoyance of logging onto websites on dodgy mobile phone connections etc.

For travelling distances such as York - Leeds, Leeds - Sheffield, it's quite possible not to be aware of which train one will be travelling on until less than ten minutes to go !

 

[Senex]

For travelling distances such as York - Leeds, Leeds - Sheffield, it's quite possible not to be aware of which train one will be travelling on until less than ten minutes to go !

Precisely so. If you're dealing with long non-stop runs, like London-York as part of an Edinburgh run or London-Crewe as part of a Manchester run, then you can work an "all reservable all the time" policy reasonably well (though I still really dislike it). But XC and TPE are both organised to cater for both short-distance and long-distance travel, and many short-distance passengers on routes such as those you mention won't know in advance which train they are going to be on.

If the system is to work fairly for all, doesn't the guard have to go through the train after each stop and feed into the system details of all occupied seats, so that the system can't then allocate already-occupied seats to those turning up later in the journey?

And can anyone say how the XC system works for the holders of season tickets (and, I suppose, passes too)? Such people have valid tickets allowing them to turn up and travel at any time. But can they make reservations only by going to a ticket-office first (as certainly was the case), or can they too make mobile phone / on-line reservations (and if so, how is it policed)?

 

[najaB]

If the system is to work fairly for all, doesn't the guard have to go through the train after each stop and feed into the system details of all occupied seats, so that the system can't then allocate already-occupied seats to those turning up later in the journey?

I don't believe that is the case. As I understand it, only a portion of the seats are available for ten-minute reservations. Assuming that all of them are unreserved at the start of the journey, the system only needs to keep track of which ones have been reserved. The rest will show 'Possibly reserved' (or whatever it is they say) rather than 'Available' on the displays.

And can anyone say how the XC system works for the holders of season tickets (and, I suppose, passes too)?

It only works for Anytime and Off-Peak tickets, not for Advance or season tickets.

 

[Justin Smith]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree Justin. Leaving morals and ethics etc aside, I think it's perfectly clear that the seats are reserved for the users of the TMR system - which, of course, anyone (in the majority) can use.

We will have to agree to disagree, but we were all talking about it in the shop today. My two staff don't use the train that often so can be considered unbiased in this regard, neither of them could understand why any train company would bring in such a system or how they could possible think it fair. They both said, without me prompting them, that a sticker on the seat saying it "may become reserved" during the journey is an irrelevance.

I don`t understand how one can leave morals and ethics aside in any sphere of life.....
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Even worse are the people that refuse to move when the reservations are enforced...when there are paper reservations. That happened to me once on a HML service, when the person there refused to move because 'they were there first'.

In this case I would have no sympathy with them, you were in the queue (so to speak) from the time you made your reservation. Short notice seat reservations are completely different in that someone could reserve a seat after you`ve sat in it, i.e. they were behind you in the queue and then jumped in front of it.
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I suppose that if it were just half a carriage, and there were plenty of other seats available, then it wouldn't be such a bad thing. But this is Cross Country we're talking about, afterall !

You`re absolutely correct, but if there were plenty of other seats available short notice seat reservations, or indeed any seat reservations, would be an irrelevance !

 

[Bletchleyite]

It only works for Anytime and Off-Peak tickets, not for Advance or season tickets.

It works for any ticket you like, as when you do it you don't have to specify the ticket type nor any details - it would even work if no ticket was held. It might be that the guard will not help you remove someone if you hold the wrong ticket type, but that won't be needed in most cases.

Neil

 

[najaB]

It works for any ticket you like, as when you do it you don't have to specify the ticket type nor any details - it would even work if no ticket was held.

I'll rephrase then, it's only supposed to work with Anytime and Off-Peak tickets according to the Terms and Conditions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll rephrase then, it's only supposed to work with Anytime and Off-Peak tickets according to the Terms and Conditions.

The wording is:

You may only use Anytime and Off Peak tickets in conjunction with a Ten minute reservation. You may not use Advance purchase ticket types that specify the date and train on which you must travel.

Which is oddly ambiguous, in that it first says what you can use it with, then highlights only one case where it can't be used, which is an unlikely case as such ticketholders will have a reservation anyway!

I'd be interested to know their intention with regard to season tickets. Perhaps it didn't occur to them.

Neil

 

[najaB]

Which is oddly ambiguous, in that it first says what you can use it with, then highlights only one case where it can't be used, which is an unlikely case as such ticketholders will have a reservation anyway!

I think they specifically mention Advance tickets because a lot of people might think that getting a TMR is the same thing as rebooking their travel onto a different train: "I had a reservation on the 1700 train, now I've got a reservation on the 1800 train, what do you mean my ticket is invalid?!"

I'd be interested to know their intention with regard to season tickets. Perhaps it didn't occur to them.

Given the routes that XC operate, I suspect that season tickets are a very small portion of their passengers. It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have any intention one way or the other.

 

[Tetchytyke]

neither of them could understand why any train company would bring in such a system or how they could possible think it fair. They both said, without me prompting them, that a sticker on the seat saying it "may become reserved" during the journey is an irrelevance.

It's one of those things that you either love or hate.

I don't see the TMR sticker- "this seat may become reserved" as anything different to a paper sticker saying that a seat is reserved later on. If you sit in it you're taking the risk that you will be booted out of your seat. On XC you often don't have a choice but to take that risk, but that doesn't change the fact you are taking a risk.

As for "enforcing invisible reservations", it's a tough one. Encouraging people to sit in their booked seat where possible is perfectly fine, but if someone doesn't have a reservation then they're a bit stuck. It's not fair to keep moving them.

It's a problem with the electronic displays generally.

 

[Justin Smith]

It [short notice seat reservations] works for any ticket you like, as when you do it you don't have to specify the ticket type nor any details - it would even work if no ticket was held. It might be that the guard will not help you remove someone if you hold the wrong ticket type, but that won't be needed in most cases.

Neil

So, if it makes no difference to how much income they get, why did they ever think it was a good idea ? ! ?
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It's one of those things that you either love or hate.

I don't see the TMR sticker- "this seat may become reserved" as anything different to a paper sticker saying that a seat is reserved later on. If you sit in it you're taking the risk that you will be booted out of your seat. On XC you often don't have a choice but to take that risk, but that doesn't change the fact you are taking a risk.

As for "enforcing invisible reservations", it's a tough one. Encouraging people to sit in their booked seat where possible is perfectly fine, but if someone doesn't have a reservation then they're a bit stuck. It's not fair to keep moving them.

It's a problem with the electronic displays generally.

But it`s completely different ! Not only is it completely unfair (that someone who may well have "reserved" that seat after I`d already sat in it gets to take it off me) but with a paper reservation you can usually see in advance of you sitting in the seat at what point in the journey the seat will be occupied.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But it`s completely different ! Not only is it completely unfair (that someone who may well have "reserved" that seat after I`d already sat in it gets to take it off me) but with a paper reservation you can usually see in advance of you sitting in the seat at what point in the journey the seat will be occupied.

Why is it unfair? The seat is marked as (potentially) reserved, it doesn't matter when it is reserved. Leaving aside the fact, of course, that you can do a TMR yourself when you're actually on the train; I've done that before.

If you sit in the seat you are taking the risk that someone may reserve it. The sign explains the risk. If you're not prepared to take that risk then sit in an unreserved or unreservable seat.

 

[Justin Smith]

Why is it unfair? The seat is marked as (potentially) reserved, it doesn't matter when it is reserved. Leaving aside the fact, of course, that you can do a TMR yourself when you're actually on the train; I've done that before.

If you sit in the seat you are taking the risk that someone may reserve it. The sign explains the risk. If you're not prepared to take that risk then sit in an unreserved or unreservable seat.

Why is it unfair ? ! ? It matters 100% when it was reserved.
When you used the system how did you feel about possibly evicting someone who may have sat in the seat before you even got on the train ? Did you even think about it ? Just answering "that`s the system so I just used it" is no excuse, as I remember it there were quite a few Germans saying similar stuff in the early/mid 1940s.....
If there are unreservable seats free, and the passenger(s) know about how complicated the seating in XC trains is, then I`m sure they would have done so.

 

[yorksrob]

If you're not prepared to take that risk then sit in an unreserved or unreservable seat.

In the event that such a thing exists, which given it's XC and likely to be rammed anyway, is unlikely.

It's a ridiculous system, however much it's apologists might like to exclaim otherwise. If you can't arrange a reservation before the train's left, it should be first come, first served.

 

[Justin Smith]

In the event that such a thing exists, which given it's XC and likely to be rammed anyway, is unlikely.

It's a ridiculous system, however much it's apologists might like to exclaim otherwise. If you can't arrange a reservation before the train's left, it should be first come, first served.

Absolutely, couldn`t agree more. The only thing I don`t understand is how anyone could argue differently......

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, if it makes no difference to how much income they get, why did they ever think it was a good idea ? ! ?

It might, because people might choose XC rather than a different TOC, e.g via London. It isn't intended to make people pay higher fares - why would it be?

Neil

 

[Jonny]

I'll try and explain further. Everyone has a choice whether they have a smart phone or not, and everyone has a choice over whether to use the TMR feature. or, indeed, whether to book a seat a day, or a week, or further ahead than that.

I'd call it unfair if there was any barrier to someone exercising that choice. Making your own choice and then living with the consequences isn't the same thing. It's not realistic to say I have chosen not to own something or do something, but because others have made a different choice it's not fair.

Smartphones are often pretty pricey - hardly worthwhile for one TOC's systems, and even taking money out of the equation they also often come with embedded tracking devices that are also unattractive as they can be used to measure speed in road traffic cases.

The whole system is a recipe for train rage IMO. I blame Arriva and if I was caught up in such an incident the resultant ill-will would extend to the whole of Arriva group.

 

[Tetchytyke]

When you used the system how did you feel about possibly evicting someone who may have sat in the seat before you even got on the train ? Did you even think about it ?

I didn't care. If they can't read a sign properly that's their lookout not mine.

Just answering "that`s the system so I just used it" is no excuse, as I remember it there were quite a few Germans saying similar stuff in the early/mid 1940s.....

In the event that such a thing exists, which given it's XC and likely to be rammed anyway, is unlikely.

There are plenty of unreservable seats in XC- these are identifiable because they don't have an electronic display above them. They're usually at one end of each carriage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Smartphones are often pretty pricey - hardly worthwhile for one TOC's systems

It's SMS based, you can use *any* mobile phone.

Neil
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they also often come with embedded tracking devices that are also unattractive as they can be used to measure speed in road traffic cases.

There is a very easy answer to that, it's an answer that ensures I don't get speeding tickets even if I'm not looking out for cameras...

The whole system is a recipe for train rage IMO. I blame Arriva and if I was caught up in such an incident the resultant ill-will would extend to the whole of Arriva group.

Seems to work OK on Deutsche Bahn services.

Neil

 

[ValleyLines142]

Please ask your friend to complain, as this is a problem apparently unique to XC.

There is no point complaining to XC about a system that has been a huge success. What will they do? It's like complaining if you get two things for the price of one.

The simple answer is thus, if XC advertised the TMR system more, such as on board trains and on stations, then it'd be fine. I'm sorry but if people can't be bothered to reserve a seat then they sacrifice having a seat on board. Simple as.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A logical continuation of this kind of system is to add station and on-train kiosks allowing things like seat selection (and maybe an app), then do away with marking seat reservations, and instead have reserved coaches and unreserved coaches, perhaps? Want a seat in the reserved coach? Wander along to the machine or get your phone out and select one, or risk losing it later.

Would avoid the boarding crush, which airlines have realised people don't like, while not removing the flexbility of walk-up tickets.

Neil