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XC enforcing invisible reservations
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RailAleFan
Member
The obvious solution would be unable to distinguish between a seat occupied by a someone and a seat "occupied" by someone's bag
I used to think I was the only person that used TMR but was never comfortable with the idea of having to ask somebody to move who had settled into a seat that wasn't reserved at the time they boarded.
It's never actually come to having to do that anyway, since whenever TMR has worked there has always been plenty of room on the train anyway.
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That's one of the difficulties that means that we aren't in a position to have TMR yet. Just my opinion, of course.
I've never tried TMR, but I'd hope that the system wouldn't allow anyone to book a last minute seat reservation on a train which already had a majority of seats reserved on it. If I'm wrong about that then it's even more reason to criticise the feature!
I've never tried TMR, but I'd hope that the system wouldn't allow anyone to book a last minute seat reservation on a train which already had a majority of seats reserved on it. If I'm wrong about that then it's even more reason to criticise the feature!
andrewkeith5
Member
I know the same day reservations/TMR aren't the original subject of this thread but they sort of have become it!
My thoughts on the matter are as such:
Why is there an area of the train dedicated to TMR? What should happen, in my opinion, is that the unreserved area should remain unreserved, and TMR should be used only to fill in gaps where reservable seats aren't reserved for part of the route. That way, there is still a fully unreserved area of the train and the likelihood is lowered of somebody sitting in the partly-reserved seat. If all the reservable seats are reserved for the journey you want to take, you'll have to go without a reservation.
However, that doesn't override my opinion that it shouldn't be possible to reserve a seat with an Advance ticket, which shall be discussed in another thread when I get around to starting it!
Another thing that's just come to mind - if seat reservations are going to be enforced, how about we ban people with a reserved seat from sitting in a dedicated unreserved area of the train to give those who need flexibility in their travel arrangements a change?
My thoughts on the matter are as such:
Why is there an area of the train dedicated to TMR? What should happen, in my opinion, is that the unreserved area should remain unreserved, and TMR should be used only to fill in gaps where reservable seats aren't reserved for part of the route. That way, there is still a fully unreserved area of the train and the likelihood is lowered of somebody sitting in the partly-reserved seat. If all the reservable seats are reserved for the journey you want to take, you'll have to go without a reservation.
However, that doesn't override my opinion that it shouldn't be possible to reserve a seat with an Advance ticket, which shall be discussed in another thread when I get around to starting it!
Another thing that's just come to mind - if seat reservations are going to be enforced, how about we ban people with a reserved seat from sitting in a dedicated unreserved area of the train to give those who need flexibility in their travel arrangements a change?
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Jonfun
Established Member
The unreserved area does remain unreserved. It is physically impossible to book the unreservable seats on a 4 coach voyager (most don't have seat numbers or screens!), and on a 5 coach train where B is unreserved, the system specifically doesn't allocate seat reservations in that carriage.
The TMR system sets aside any seats in coach C, that could be reserved, but haven't yet been so, for anyone who wishes to reserve one as the train goes about it's journey. If theoretically the train's busy and more people want to reserve seats in the traditional fashion, then as I understand it the reservation system will (once it's allocated all available seats in F and D) then begin to allocate seats in C, thus you could have all reservable seats reserved anyway - without even considering TMR.
The TMR system sets aside any seats in coach C, that could be reserved, but haven't yet been so, for anyone who wishes to reserve one as the train goes about it's journey. If theoretically the train's busy and more people want to reserve seats in the traditional fashion, then as I understand it the reservation system will (once it's allocated all available seats in F and D) then begin to allocate seats in C, thus you could have all reservable seats reserved anyway - without even considering TMR.
Justin Smith
Established Member
This is how I see it, there are only a certain number of seats on a train, seat reservations allow people to jump the queue (effectively) for a seat. Now if it`s clear on the seats exactly when they`re reserved from the point any particular passenger gets on the service then being able to reserve a seat is acceptable because they`ve effectively been in teh queue from the time they booked their seat, I`m not against seat reservations of this type provided a significant proportion of the seats are unreservable.
But as for short notice reservations that really is patently jumping the queue. Now I can think of various groups for which that would be acceptable (families with kids, frail elderly folk, pregnant mothers etc etc) but not, repeat not, for someone who has a smartphone and knows how to play the system.
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So tickets booked on a short notice reservation would ersult in all the income going to XC ? That`s what I mean about a conflict of interest.
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Jonfun
Established Member
If you deem advance tickets a conflict of interest because they include a reserved seats and all the revenue goes to one TOC (excluding +connections ones, but broadly same principle applies) then that's an issue across the wider railway industry and not with TMR.
pne
Member
You seem to be confusing tickets with reservations.
A ten-minute reservation reserves a seat; it's not buying a ticket. You already have to have a ticket.
Advance tickets require you to travel on a specific train and include a reservation; an Advance ticket for an XC train will give money to XC since you can't use any other TOC's train for that stretch of journey.
But you can't make a TMR on an Advance ticket; it would be pointless anyway since you already have a mandatory reservation.
pne
Member
I thought you could only by Advance tickets till 2359 of the previous day? (With some operators having an even earlier cut-off, e.g.1800 or so.)
XC are rebels! Advance tickets are available via their website on the day of travel: Advance Tickets info on the Cross Country website.
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Generally, I agree with you on this issue. I don't regard using TMR's as jumping the queue, though. It's simply taking advantage of a facility that the company has decided to offer part of its business plan. As much as I don't like it myself, and have no interest in trying it, I can't agree that it's in some way morally wrong to use it.
I bought an XC ONLY Advance a couple of hours before my train was due to depart recently. It was about half the cost of an Off-Peak Day Single. Of course, I got a 10minute reservation, but when I joined the train the reservation system had failed and as such I had to stand.
CC 72100
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Did you have to text in to get the reservation yourself?
I thought it would have allocated a reservation when the ticket was purchased - advance ticket holders are not permitted to use the 10 minute reservation system.
I think there is some confusion here. CrossCountry Trains allow you to purchase an Advance ticket up to 15 Min before the train departs your station, if you use their website or Smartphone App. This gives you a reservation straight away, so will reserve you in the same manner as the TMR system.
pne
Member
Well I'll be! Thanks for pointing to that.
ValleyLines142
Established Member
I've only just seen this, thanks for singling me out....
CC 72100
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That's how I understood it, it was just from the way the OP was worded, I thought that after purchasing the advance ticket they then also did a 10-minute reservation, as if the original purchase hadn't 'triggered' one.
That is exactly how it works, if you buy it through the app you are randomly allocated a seat, if you buy it online you can use the train plans to pick a free seat.
I've purchased an XC 1st advance around 20 minutes before the train was set to depart as I was walking to the station - in peak time they offer (or used to offer) 1st advances charged at the same price as the anytime fare (presumably to allow you to purchase it through the app), but you get rail card discount.
When I boarded I was pleasantly surprised to find the display indicating that the seat was reserved between Sheffield and York.
Justin Smith
Established Member
Just to clarify this, if one was travelling on a day return ticket bought at a station (or a rail rover) one could still get a 10 minute seat reservation ? Not that I think short notice seat reservations are acceptable anyway I hasten to add. They`re only acceptable if you`re not asking someone else (who may well have been in seat before you even reserved it ! ) to move. But, of course, that the whole point of a seat reservation !
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Is it a reserved seat ? If not I`ve no problem with it. If it is a reserved seat (sold and reserved after the train has left its initial departure station) then I do have a problem with it and would be totally sympathetic with any passenger who refused to move for someone who`d very possibly reserved that seat after they`d sat in it. In fact I don`t think I`d move, it`d need a BT policeman to get me to move. A few of the earlier posts seem to hint that in reality there`s precious little the guard (or train manager or whatever they call them these days) could do to force you to move, is that right ?
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So let`s put this into figures. You get on a train at 13.30 for a two hour journey. Someone else then reserves that seat at 14.10. They get on at 14.30 and expect you to move. By what definition of fair does that correspond ?
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I've said I don't like it and I don't agree with it in principle, but it's not unfair provided that the seat you've taken is marked as possibly being reserved later in the journey.
What would be unfair is if the passenger had no way of knowing, or that the same passenger had been prevented in some way from getting a TMR themselves. And by that I don't mean choosing not to use the facility, like I choose not to use it, or choosing not to have a smartphone.
If I was in that position, I'd probably choose to sit elsewhere, but if there was no choice I'd happily surrender my seat. More likely though, I'd avoid XC altogether or have a seat reservation in the first place.
No, I'm talking about a train that had departed Plymouth several hours earlier. I purchased a 1st advance whilst walking to the station (I wasn't sure which train I was going to get because I was taking an exam).
It used to be made clear on the displays that this seat *may* be reserved, making clear that it was may be reserved between Birmingham to York for example, with the seat being reserved past that location.
Jonfun
Established Member
At the end of the day, it's clear that the seating is reserved for users of the TMR system which anyone can of course make use of if they so wish - and plenty of people do, and appreciate the convenience.
Shocked of Sheffield would find his time is much better spent taking a couple of seconds to do a TMR himself rather than staging a one man protest, which is going to get him a lot more stressed - and, potentially inconvenienced, should he come across a member of staff rather picky about the rules - than the traincrew or indeed the seat's rightful occupant.
Shocked of Sheffield would find his time is much better spent taking a couple of seconds to do a TMR himself rather than staging a one man protest, which is going to get him a lot more stressed - and, potentially inconvenienced, should he come across a member of staff rather picky about the rules - than the traincrew or indeed the seat's rightful occupant.
Yes, of course it is a reserved seat, or else what would be the point? If you don't like it, take it up with XC. But they have wan an award for this system, so don't expect them to just get rid of it because you won't move out of a seat that someone else has reserved! If you want a seat, reserve your own or run the risk of standing, it's that simple, and it applies to every TOC.
Well having read all of the tooing and froing I maintain my opinion that it's a stupid system to install on stupid little toy trains like Voyagers. If there were a decent number of seats in the first place the problem would be mitigated but as there aren't, it isn't.
The whole line taken towards reservations by the TOC is illogical. If they aren't displayed, can them, and don't leave people playing a lottery with a train with 2 and a bit standard class coaches that they may be on for hours without fully understanding the crack.
Make sure everyone knows where they stand.
The whole line taken towards reservations by the TOC is illogical. If they aren't displayed, can them, and don't leave people playing a lottery with a train with 2 and a bit standard class coaches that they may be on for hours without fully understanding the crack.
Make sure everyone knows where they stand.
I also think it's as stupid system, and the real problem here is that the Voyagers aren't fir for purpose.
Having said that, my opinion doesn't count for much. It's clear that some passengers like it, and it's very clear that XC likes it, so despite what anyone thinks about it, it appears to be here to stay.
I wouldn't stage a protest myself, though, I see no point in aggravating a situation with a refusal to give up a seat. What will it achieve? Bad feeling all around, and all involved, including someone who has just taken advantage of a feature offered by the TOC and done nothing wrong, would end up upset and inconvenienced.
As I said, I'd much prefer to avoid XC, but if I do travel with them I'd expect to play by their rules.
Having said that, my opinion doesn't count for much. It's clear that some passengers like it, and it's very clear that XC likes it, so despite what anyone thinks about it, it appears to be here to stay.
I wouldn't stage a protest myself, though, I see no point in aggravating a situation with a refusal to give up a seat. What will it achieve? Bad feeling all around, and all involved, including someone who has just taken advantage of a feature offered by the TOC and done nothing wrong, would end up upset and inconvenienced.
As I said, I'd much prefer to avoid XC, but if I do travel with them I'd expect to play by their rules.
CC 72100
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I don't think it's an inherently bad system, in fact, quite the opposite, I totally get the advantages that it brings.
However - and this is where the problem lies for me - how can the main unreserved coach on some trains have all seats (or at least those with numbers/screens) on this system (the whole of coach C). Are the numberless seats in coach D (which seems to one of the two heavily or completely reserved coaches) which comes to no more than 20 seats the only seats on the train that cannot be reserved and so you can sit in without fear of eviction?
I'm sure there's more than 20 people on the standard 4-car voyager who are completely oblivious to this system, would be rather confused at the idea that their seat is no longer their seat and would think that an unreserved seat is theirs for the journey.
I find it interesting that Virgin haven't adopted a similar scheme, despite the fact that their longer trains would actually be more appropriate.
However - and this is where the problem lies for me - how can the main unreserved coach on some trains have all seats (or at least those with numbers/screens) on this system (the whole of coach C). Are the numberless seats in coach D (which seems to one of the two heavily or completely reserved coaches) which comes to no more than 20 seats the only seats on the train that cannot be reserved and so you can sit in without fear of eviction?
I'm sure there's more than 20 people on the standard 4-car voyager who are completely oblivious to this system, would be rather confused at the idea that their seat is no longer their seat and would think that an unreserved seat is theirs for the journey.
I find it interesting that Virgin haven't adopted a similar scheme, despite the fact that their longer trains would actually be more appropriate.
Marton
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Given the pricing structure of XC it's no wonder. I usually try to split and using start bs finish places off XC but any permitted can give remarkable open savings if the route is priced by a more reasonable TOC.
My last journey in 1st was half the price of the XC priced route by using 2 splits and and not completing one journey.
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