Should passengers be allowed to sit in 1st class when standard class seating runs out

[A-driver]

I've used TPE 1st Class from Liverpool to Manchester a few times recently, and there is ALWAYS one who sits in 1st with a Standard ticket.



Today was no exception. Despite a lengthy pre-departure speech about the First Class coach being only for First Class ticket holders, and being identifiable by notices at both ends of the compartment, also by the seat backs, a young(ish) woman settled herself down in there, spread her laptop and papers over the table, and became oblivious to all around. She was on board when the announcements were made, but obviously decided they didn't apply to her.



The TM came through checking tickets between South Parkway and Warrington, and told her she shouldn't be in 1st, and she asked where should she go then! :roll: The TM was very patient and directed her towards the rest of the train, but she had already had 20 minutes free 1st travel. Had she got off at South Parkway, no-one would have been any the wiser.



Funnily enough, there was also a young (probably teenage) girl in 1st, but obviously her ticket was valid, whereas the woman who gave the appearance of being a business type was chancing her luck.

Why is it funny that there was a teenager with a first class ticket? Anyone who pays for the ticket can travel in there, even babies and toddlers! And you don't have to wear an expensive suit either to sit in there!

 

[trainophile]

Why is it funny that there was a teenager with a first class ticket? Anyone who pays for the ticket can travel in there, even babies and toddlers! And you don't have to wear an expensive suit either to sit in there!

I was expecting that . I wasn't very well dressed myself, but being the wrong side of 60 I probably looked like I'd had time to save up for 1st Class travel! I just thought that if I had been that teenager, and was paying for my own ticket, I'd have probably elected to save the few quid and go Standard as I'd have had better things to spend my money on at that age.

No snobbery intended! .

 

[fowler9]

I was expecting that . I wasn't very well dressed myself, but being the wrong side of 60 I probably looked like I'd had time to save up for 1st Class travel! I just thought that if I had been that teenager, and was paying for my own ticket, I'd have probably elected to save the few quid and go Standard as I'd have had better things to spend my money on at that age.

No snobbery intended! .

Ah well, I understand where you are coming from, however, the last 2 times I was using first class it was because it was cheaper than standard.

 

[me123]

I don't think there should even be 'First Class'.

Veering away from the topic here a bit, but why not? If people are willing to pay extra for the service then why shouldn't it exist? The customer gets the service they want. The vendor usually gets an increased mark-up on FC tickets compared to SC. They potentially get more money off the passenger who would otherwise have paid for a standard ticket. Both the customer (who wants to pay extra) and the train company (who wants to take extra) win here, provided the service is up to scratch of course.

I would agree that many routes have a pointless FC section, where I could never see any benefit to purchasing a First Class ticket (and I'd probably include plenty of the London commuter routes in this), although I suspect that since people do buy the tickets then someone must want them! But I would not agree that FC as a whole should be abolished. If there is demand for the service, then the TOC should be able to provide it.

 

[trainophile]

Totally agree me123. Presumably no-one would argue for the abolition of First (and Business) Class on airlines... or would they?

 

[jon0844]

If they did, their economy ticket would go up a fair bit.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Totally agree me123. Presumably no-one would argue for the abolition of First (and Business) Class on airlines... or would they?

Domestic airlines haven't had business or first class for a very long time, and on short-haul flights within Europe it is hit and miss. Lufthansa's "business class" on short-haul flights involves nothing more than not booking the middle seat of three, and an extra baggage allowance.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, and the use of a lounge that probably isn't all that at many airports or terminals. Oh and perhaps a nicer meal and getting served first.

BA often try and upsell me before flights (and sometimes very cheap) and presumably think it's easy money.

People do still travel in that class though, although I have no idea how many paid in advance or upgraded.

 

[bb21]

Why is it funny that there was a teenager with a first class ticket? Anyone who pays for the ticket can travel in there, even babies and toddlers! And you don't have to wear an expensive suit either to sit in there!

I don't think that was the intention by my reading. I think it is more about pointing out how some of the common stereotypes can be so wrong.

Of course most people on this forum should know by now that appearances can be deceptive, but that doesn't stop many others in the wider world thinking so. In fact, I only had someone tutting at me last month in First Class on Virgin, and I gave him an evil stare back.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I like First Class. At the weekend, coming back from watching Chelsea or Winchester City, it's well worth the £5.

 

[jon0844]

I've had a few looks when sitting in first on a declassified service, especially when I've been with my wife and (now) 3 year old.

Perhaps it hasn't helped that I've said to the wife a bit louder than necessary that 'it's okay to sit in here, it's not actually first class' and made a comment about it's fine as nobody would be mad enough to pay for a first class ticket on that train anyway.

Ultimately, if everyone else is in there with a standard ticket then fine - but if the person(s) looking down on us did have a first class ticket then...

Perhaps they just have a problem with a toddler being in first class, who knows. We do make sure he doesn't make too much noise, doesn't have his feet on the seats and will sit on our lap if someone else needs a seat (that he hasn't paid for).

 

[me123]

Domestic airlines haven't had business or first class for a very long time, and on short-haul flights within Europe it is hit and miss. Lufthansa's "business class" on short-haul flights involves nothing more than not booking the middle seat of three, and an extra baggage allowance.

I suspect Lufthansa's product is primarily aimed at passengers transferring onto their long haul premium products rather than point-to-point traffic, although I'm sure they'll take the business expense account money if they're offering.

 

[ThePannier]

In my personal opinion (don't shoot) - unless you've paid for First Class travel, I don't think you should be allowed to enjoy the benefits of it.

Exceptions could be made to disabled people, pregnant women, basically people who require a seat or special treatment, but you would think in Standard Class someone would have the generosity to give up their seat for them.

 

[Geezertronic]

Exceptions could be made to disabled people, pregnant women, basically people who require a seat or special treatment, but you would think in Standard Class someone would have the generosity to give up their seat for them.

Then you open a massive can of worms by asking the Guard/TM to decide who is disabled enough, who is truly pregnant (and not just overweight), or how to define anyone who requires special treatment to sit in first class etc... which is an impossible task and one the Guard/TM would quite rightly decline to do

 

[CC 72100]

Domestic airlines haven't had business or first class for a very long time, and on short-haul flights within Europe it is hit and miss. Lufthansa's "business class" on short-haul flights involves nothing more than not booking the middle seat of three, and an extra baggage allowance.

People are more likely to pay for first class or want the benefits that it brings if they are likely to be on the train/plane for a long time. If you consider that a domestic flight is 90 minutes tops, then you can also find equivalent train journeys that are also of a similar duration - both of which don't offer first class.

Think of a medium - long haul flight (so let's say over 3 hours 30 for example) then you may well find first class, just like on a train journey of a comparable time, there's a reasonable chance (unless you're on one of the long regional routes) that you'll also find it.

 

[me123]

Then you open a massive can of worms by asking the Guard/TM to decide who is disabled enough, who is truly pregnant (and not just overweight), or how to define anyone who requires special treatment to sit in first class etc... which is an impossible task and one the Guard/TM would quite rightly decline to do

Pregnancy and obesity are completely different.
Obesity (with apologies)

Pregnancy

Although I would whole-heartedly agree that a train guard is not an occupational therapist and cannot/should not be expected to assess disability.

 

[najaB]

Pregnancy and obesity are completely different.
Obesity (with apologies)...

My eyes! My eyes! Ach mein Gott, why can't I unsee that!

 

[Tetchytyke]

People are more likely to pay for first class or want the benefits that it brings if they are likely to be on the train/plane for a long time. If you consider that a domestic flight is 90 minutes tops, then you can also find equivalent train journeys that are also of a similar duration - both of which don't offer first class.

I'd agree with that, but then most London commuter trains have first class.

My point was that plenty of airlines have abolished business/first class.

Pregnancy and obesity are completely different.
Obesity (with apologies)

Hubba hubba :heart:

 

[Flamingo]

I have to try and forget that now!

 

[CC 72100]

I'd agree with that, but then most London commuter trains have first class.

Yeah, London commuter trains break the rule a bit

 

[mrredrunner100]

I don't think there should even be 'First Class'.

Jumping in here, but I agree with the quoted statement because if there were only standard coaches then you wouldn't have all the problems you have now with declassifying and all that. There would be more seats because space isn't being taken up by 1st. I would be fine with it on the long haul trains like kings x to Inverness because that's like an 8 hour trip.

But I think getting rid of first class coaches would be good because it just saves all the hassle, more seats, no arguments and none of the "well you can't afford 1st" and all that mean stuff and basically I'm saying it would be fairer and could make train travel more comfortable for busy trains. I know commuters want to pay for first class but I'm sure they can use cope with standard and if they want quiet time then there is the quiet zones. This is just how I view first class, ok it is more comfortable but personally I would rather have the extra seating space than xxx carriges of spacious 1st class.

 

[iainbhx]

Yes, and the use of a lounge that probably isn't all that at many airports or terminals. Oh and perhaps a nicer meal and getting served first.

BA often try and upsell me before flights (and sometimes very cheap) and presumably think it's easy money.

People do still travel in that class though, although I have no idea how many paid in advance or upgraded.

Lufthansa Senator here, most of the people flying Business on the short haul flights are either connecting passengers, people on fully flexible tickets within Europe where it's bobbins between business and standard or people travelling at the absolute last minute. However, they are mainly connecting pax onto long haul. Very few are upgrades these days, that's a big thing in the US but not in Europe, I've been upgraded twice in six years both times for space reasons and I turned one of them down. No one in their right mind would pay for a miles upgrade within Europe.

Can't speak for other airlines, but Lufthansa group have a lounge or access to a lounge at the vast majority of the airports they serve. Certainly business probably isn't worth it within Europe unless you are going to Istanbul and even then its marginal.

Now long-haul, that is where it is worth it, just like on the train.

 

[trainophile]

Jumping in here, but I agree with the quoted statement because if there were only standard coaches then you wouldn't have all the problems you have now with declassifying and all that. There would be more seats because space isn't being taken up by 1st. I would be fine with it on the long haul trains like kings x to Inverness because that's like an 8 hour trip.

But I think getting rid of first class coaches would be good because it just saves all the hassle, more seats, no arguments and none of the "well you can't afford 1st" and all that mean stuff and basically I'm saying it would be fairer and could make train travel more comfortable for busy trains. I know commuters want to pay for first class but I'm sure they can use cope with standard and if they want quiet time then there is the quiet zones. This is just how I view first class, ok it is more comfortable but personally I would rather have the extra seating space than xxx carriges of spacious 1st class.

So pax on the KGX to INV train should not be allowed to pay for 1st Class seats if they are only going to York, because that's only two hours? Either a train has 1st Class or it doesn't, and where it does then it has to be available for anyone prepared to pay for it.

 

[jimm]

Domestic airlines haven't had business or first class for a very long time, and on short-haul flights within Europe it is hit and miss. Lufthansa's "business class" on short-haul flights involves nothing more than not booking the middle seat of three, and an extra baggage allowance.

Which will come as news to anyone using flybe - which offers tickets between airports around the UK called All In, offering much the same as Lufthansa and BA business class across Europe, with access to lounges, free snacks, etc....

On a rammed flight, some people clearly regard not having someone wedged into the middle seat next to them as a good thing. Same as others regard 2+1 seating on a long-distance train as worth paying for.

If it wasn't worth the while of the airlines and rail firms to offer these facilities, they wouldn't bother. Even Ryanair now offers what it calls Business Plus tickets.

 

[davsarg]

No they should not.

I commute into Manchester every day in standard class and I'm well aware how busy it can get, but would never think about asking to be allowed into 1st class no matter how busy standard was. Although I've never travelled in 1st class in the UK, my family & I have travelled 1st whenever we've holidayed in Switzerland. A large part of the appeal of first class whether in the UK or anywhere else is being able to sit in a nearly empty & peaceful carriage. Why should someone pay the extra for that privilege only for it to be taken away?

If first class does get opened up to standard class passengers on any train, then first class passengers should be compensated in some way as they are no longer getter what they paid extra for.

 

[fowler9]

No they should not.

I commute into Manchester every day in standard class and I'm well aware how busy it can get, but would never think about asking to be allowed into 1st class no matter how busy standard was. Although I've never travelled in 1st class in the UK, my family & I have travelled 1st whenever we've holidayed in Switzerland. A large part of the appeal of first class whether in the UK or anywhere else is being able to sit in a nearly empty & peaceful carriage. Why should someone pay the extra for that privilege only for it to be taken away?

If first class does get opened up to standard class passengers on any train, then first class passengers should be compensated in some way as they are no longer getter what they paid extra for.

You are right that the appeal of first is having more space but surely it makes no sense having almost half of a 9 car Pendolino carrying fresh air at certain times of the day.

 

[Flamingo]

You are right that the appeal of first is having more space but surely it makes no sense having almost half of a 9 car Pendolino carrying fresh air at certain times of the day.

It would not be carrying any more passengers if first was not there, they would just be distributed differently through the train.

 

[fowler9]

It would not be carrying any more passengers if first was not there, they would just be distributed differently through the train.

If people felt that they were more likely to get a seat you could possibly attract more customers. You could of course just end up with the same problem further down the line. How often during the day is first class on the Pendos sold out or at least heavily loaded? I ask because I simply don't know, not because I think it is never. It obviously works as a business model or the Virgin wouldn't have that many first class seats.

 

[backontrack]

Having travelled on one yesterday, I was surprised to notice that Southeastern 375's have first class. It's always empty though.

There's a purple variation of the moquette, antimacassars, and...not much else.

I couldn't see anyone there, but I didn't venture down the next carriage.

Is this ever used?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

First class patronage in the London and South East area has remained (certainly in my railway time) as around 7% of total revenue.

They could do more to market off peak / weekend useage - say a £5 supplement on the longer journeys - maybe £2 on shorter hops. As the "deeply inefficient" BR / NSE used to do .....