Should passengers be allowed to sit in 1st class when standard class seating runs out

[dk1]

Well said Flamingo. An excellent post.

I'll second that. So many are too lazy to go hunt out a seat. You can't invade 1st class & spoil it for those paying a premium. Should they do this then further 1st class passengers arrive then try moving them on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Mirror do not appear to have any knowledge of why exactly anybody would pay for First Class in the first place.

I am sure that the Daily Mirror feel that we should all travel "Comrade Class" and each journey would feature compulsory singing of "The Internationale"..

 

[Bevan Price]

I think they should get rid of first class on all trains consisting of 4 coaches or less - it is inefficient use of resources on services that often become overloaded with standard class passengers. Just keep a maximum of one first class coach on longer trains serving long-distance routes, and improve the level of comfort in new-build standard class coaches.

I have not been to Ireland for many years, so I don't know if this still applies, but on my last trip, CIE seemed to manage adequately with just a single class.

 

[Flamingo]

On looking at the new set-up, I have to say that six standard class coaches do seem to work on the routes and trains I work. They are adequate numbers-wise, the eternal problem is getting people to walk to a carriage that has seats, and getting rid of the bottle-neck at the bar..

I have heard issues from other routes about the First Class, but from observation I think that a tightening up of the number of First Class Advance tickets should sort it out.

 

[richw]

Just out of interest, was the HST a 2+8 with 1.5 1st class?

It was a 2+7,with 1.5 first class with Pullman service, so the 0.5 first class was Pullman diners only.

I did wonder the logic of putting a 2+7 on a diagram that they would of known already the entirety of coach A, B, C & D are reserved between Reading and Devon, leaving 1 carriage for walk ups, and those without reservations.
The problem would have been having a set with Pullman facilities, which I assume resulted in the 2+7 set being the only option available at the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On looking at the new set-up, I have to say that six standard class coaches do seem to work on the routes and trains I work. They are adequate numbers-wise, the eternal problem is getting people to walk to a carriage that has seats, and getting rid of the bottle-neck at the bar..

I have heard issues from other routes about the First Class, but from observation I think that a tightening up of the number of First Class Advance tickets should sort it out.

I heard a conversation today on my above mentioned journey that a family were only travelling first because it was cheaper than standard. Putting 2&2 together with my above post says they were on first advance tickets.

 

[pembroke]

How many in first class are rail employees, retired or otherwise, plus families? It's normally a rule in the airline world that staff vacate seats for overbooked and paying passengers and they accept the downgrade quietly, without drawing attention to the fact they are staff.

 

[Ash Bridge]

It was a 2+7,with 1.5 first class with Pullman service, so the 0.5 first class was Pullman diners only.

I did wonder the logic of putting a 2+7 on a diagram that they would of known already the entirety of coach A, B, C & D are reserved between Reading and Devon, leaving 1 carriage for walk ups, and those without reservations.
The problem would have been having a set with Pullman facilities, which I assume resulted in the 2+7 set being the only option available at the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The fact that it's schools half term (at least it is up here) wouldn't have helped either, did well to cope being 70+ Standard seats down then!

 

[Flamingo]

How many in first class are rail employees, retired or otherwise, plus families? It's normally a rule in the airline world that staff vacate seats for overbooked and paying passengers and they accept the downgrade quietly, without drawing attention to the fact they are staff.

FGW reduced the entitlement to First Class quite considerably over the last few years. Most First Class passes I see are Network Rail, either active or retired. A lot of old BR were offered a First Class pass as part of the sweetener with redundancy/ early retirement back in the 90's. The myth of Firdt Class being full of off-duty staff is just that, I'm afraid. Many more are on Advance tickets, of various discounts. I'll regularly see Swansea-Bristol Parkway 1st with railcard for under £7, I saw a Port-Talbot to BPW on YP in 1st for £4.95 last week. Theyhad more than that worth of at-seat freebies during the hour journey (and the words "Thank You" or "Please" were not in their vocabulary.)

 

[Starmill]

I took the 1006 today, Paddington to Penzance. From Reading all First Class seats were taken bar two, the Pullman was turning people away, and Standard was standing only.
The 1006 runs fast from Reading to Exeter so a long stand.

Whether this is the norm, I don't know, but I would say no standard class holders shouldn't be allowed in First regardless,

This is a minor concern! I have splashed out not far off £100 (part of a rather longer journey) for this train from Paddington to Penzance in early April in First. I have a reservation and was rather hoping to have the Pullman brunch menu, although I'm not that fussed about that. Wedge express I take it? I thought the non-stop to Exeter might help reduce that!

 

[richw]

This is a minor concern! I have splashed out not far off £100 (part of a rather longer journey) for this train from Paddington to Penzance in early April in First. I have a reservation and was rather hoping to have the Pullman brunch menu, although I'm not that fussed about that. Wedge express I take it? I thought the non-stop to Exeter might help reduce that!

As Ash Bridge pointed out its the first day of half term in most of the country, and it seems everybody was heading to devon. There were a lot of families travelling. The service went quiet quickly once we started stopping through devon. It's also the first off peak service to devon and cornwall, other than the 1000 Paignton which goes via bristol and takes a good hour longer,
On that subject the next school holidays run from around the 1st April for a fortnight, so you may hit the school holidays as well. Avoid Monday's and Fridays is best advise for school holidays,

 

[bnm]

And lest we forget, at least people can get a direct FGW train from London to beyond Exeter this February half term. 12 months ago was very different.

 

[Senex]

I think they should get rid of first class on all trains consisting of 4 coaches or less - it is inefficient use of resources on services that often become overloaded with standard class passengers. Just keep a maximum of one first class coach on longer trains serving long-distance routes, and improve the level of comfort in new-build standard class coaches.

So how do you deal with the short trains doing Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh, Liverpool to Newcastle, Newcastle to Reading, etc? Sure they are the wrong stock for the job, but there is decent business traffic and a need for first-class accommodation.

As far as I can see, in most cases on these routes the shortage of accommodation arises in those sections of the journey where the trains are also being used as commuter services. Would it not be a better solution to use the pricing system to keep commuters off long-distance services?

 

[Greenback]

FGW reduced the entitlement to First Class quite considerably over the last few years. Most First Class passes I see are Network Rail, either active or retired. A lot of old BR were offered a First Class pass as part of the sweetener with redundancy/ early retirement back in the 90's. The myth of Firdt Class being full of off-duty staff is just that, I'm afraid. Many more are on Advance tickets, of various discounts. I'll regularly see Swansea-Bristol Parkway 1st with railcard for under £7, I saw a Port-Talbot to BPW on YP in 1st for £4.95 last week. Theyhad more than that worth of at-seat freebies during the hour journey (and the words "Thank You" or "Please" were not in their vocabulary.)

My experience on cheap first class Advance tickets backs up what you say about there being few staff in first. While you can never be absolutely sure who is railway or ex railway, I'm confident that I can tell in most cases, either due to the dress, manner or what they are talking about, I'd say that I've hardly seen any staff or retired employees at all on the trains I've used.

 

[jimm]

I think they should get rid of first class on all trains consisting of 4 coaches or less - it is inefficient use of resources on services that often become overloaded with standard class passengers. Just keep a maximum of one first class coach on longer trains serving long-distance routes, and improve the level of comfort in new-build standard class coaches.

I have not been to Ireland for many years, so I don't know if this still applies, but on my last trip, CIE seemed to manage adequately with just a single class.

It will come as news to Iarnrod Eireann that it only offers a single class.

http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/first-class-travel-1
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So how do you deal with the short trains doing Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh, Liverpool to Newcastle, Newcastle to Reading, etc? Sure they are the wrong stock for the job, but there is decent business traffic and a need for first-class accommodation.

As far as I can see, in most cases on these routes the shortage of accommodation arises in those sections of the journey where the trains are also being used as commuter services. Would it not be a better solution to use the pricing system to keep commuters off long-distance services?

Don't give XC any more encouragement, their fares for many journeys throughout the day already seem calculated to keep passengers away - and what would you do with the commuters, who may not have any alternative but to use XC trains in the first place, with alternatives either non-existent or less frequent and far slower?

 

[Fincra5]

No they shouldn't. The ticket doesn't give you seat it gives you permission to travel from A-B in the class selected.

 

[Mojo]

This is a minor concern! I have splashed out not far off £100 (part of a rather longer journey) for this train from Paddington to Penzance in early April in First. I have a reservation and was rather hoping to have the Pullman brunch menu, although I'm not that fussed about that. Wedge express I take it? I thought the non-stop to Exeter might help reduce that!

In contrast, I'm on the 1045 from Padd and about to get off in Bristol, and I've been the only customer! I'm totally stuffed though, had to recline the seat to get myself comfortable!

 

[pne]

(Seriously, how often is Standard described as "full" when people actually mean - "I can't get a seat on my own and I'm certainly not sitting next to a stranger")

Or it can mean "the two coaches closest to the barrier at the London end are full and standing and I haven't bothered to check any of the other five."

 

[The Ham]

a campaign has begun to allow 1st class seating when standard is full

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/campaign-starts-turn-first-class-5166605

I agree that if standard is full that you should be able to use first class.

However you should meet the following requirements:
- The guard offers it to you (after asking a few people if they are willing to move for you)
- You are pregnant or have a disability which stops you from standing for a prolonged period of time
- You have not been offered a seat by someone already sitting on one
- You have a valid ticket

I would say that there could be something in the franchise agreements that punishes TOC's from having more than a certain number of services which fail to provide enough seating (and where passengers have to stand for more than 20 minutes) so as to encourage the lengthening of trains (trains at the maximum length would not be counted against the TOC's unless there were available paths for additional services, but would be logged so that infrastructure work could be prioritised).

 

[Flamingo]

Three points:
1. Who decides Standard is full?
2. Define "Full"?
3. When seats come available, should the people on Standard Class tickets move? (And if not,why not?)

 

[Bald Rick]

Three points:
1. Who decides Standard is full?
2. Define "Full"?
3. When seats come available, should the people on Standard Class tickets move? (And if not,why not?)

And point 4

If a standard class ticket holder occupies a first class seat, and a first class ticket holder subsequently boards, should the former be asked to move, if so who should ask him/her, and how would they be identified?

 

[The Ham]

Three points:
1. Who decides Standard is full?
2. Define "Full"?
3. When seats come available, should the people on Standard Class tickets move? (And if not,why not?)

If you are making reference to my list of requirements for when someone could sit in first class when standard was full, I may not have been clear that all the requirements had to be met. Therefore in that case the guard is the one who determines whether someone can use first class. Maybe I needed to add an additional requirement which would be:
- when asked be willing to move back to standard class
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And point 4

If a standard class ticket holder occupies a first class seat, and a first class ticket holder subsequently boards, should the former be asked to move, if so who should ask him/her, and how would they be identified?

Given that we are talking about people who are unable to stand for long periods of time who are offered a seat in first by the guard when standard is full when noone around them is willing to give up their seat when asked by the guard, the overall numbers will be very small and as such are unlikely to materially impact those in first class.

 

[richw]

I agree that if standard is full that you should be able to use first class.

However you should meet the following requirements:
- The guard offers it to you (after asking a few people if they are willing to move for you)
- You are pregnant or have a disability which stops you from standing for a prolonged period of time
- You have not been offered a seat by someone already sitting on one
- You have a valid ticket

I would say that there could be something in the franchise agreements that punishes TOC's from having more than a certain number of services which fail to provide enough seating (and where passengers have to stand for more than 20 minutes) so as to encourage the lengthening of trains (trains at the maximum length would not be counted against the TOC's unless there were available paths for additional services, but would be logged so that infrastructure work could be prioritised).

The DfT cant punish operators for not having enough carriages. The DfT is the one who allocates the carriage numbers.
There is not enough carriages in the UK, again the DfT are responsible for this not the operators.

 

[duffield]

How many in first class are rail employees, retired or otherwise, plus families? It's normally a rule in the airline world that staff vacate seats for overbooked and paying passengers and they accept the downgrade quietly, without drawing attention to the fact they are staff.

This is the general rule for active staff. As a first class pass holder, I keep a watchful eye on how full first class is (although that's difficult when there's more than one coach!) and move if necessary without being asked.

 

[90sWereBetter]

No. Keep the riff-raff out of first class.

 

[The Ham]

The DfT cant punish operators for not having enough carriages. The DfT is the one who allocates the carriage numbers.
There is not enough carriages in the UK, again the DfT are responsible for this not the operators.

Really?:
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...oar-over-ftpe-chiltern-rolling-stock-transfer

“As is usual in the commercial rolling stock market, the lease was offered from that point. The opportunity was taken up by Chiltern Railways, which agreed a new lease earlier this year.”
He added that the DfT knew about the decision in October 2013 and the secretary of state saw a lease in February “the Department was aware of the lease, but we cannot unreasonably withhold consent for it, so it was given”.

 

[me123]

If you are making reference to my list of requirements for when someone could sit in first class when standard was full, I may not have been clear that all the requirements had to be met. Therefore in that case the guard is the one who determines whether someone can use first class. Maybe I needed to add an additional requirement which would be:
- when asked be willing to move back to standard class
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Given that we are talking about people who are unable to stand for long periods of time who are offered a seat in first by the guard when standard is full when noone around them is willing to give up their seat when asked by the guard, the overall numbers will be very small and as such are unlikely to materially impact those in first class.

But should it not be the case that the people you refer to (elderly, pregnant, and so on) should be able to have a seat in standard class by asking SC passengers to move? These stickers are widely visible on trains, and I don't see why SC passengers shouldn't simply be making way for those who are entitled to a seat. Indeed, they tend to have plenty of extra legroom so are already improvements on the SC product.

Furthermore, you suggest that these passengers would move back to SC when asked to do so. Whilst I agree with this in principle, the notion of asking an 85 year old lady with a walking stick to clamber back several carriages because a seat has become available elsewhere on the train (particularly on longer trains like EC and Virgin) is completely unworkable. You're asking people to move around more when, by definition, you're offering them a seat because their mobility is impaired!

I think it'd be a sad reflection on society if those of us who are more able were not standing up to allow those who need it more to get a seat.

 

[The Ham]

But should it not be the case that the people you refer to (elderly, pregnant, and so on) should be able to have a seat in standard class by asking SC passengers to move? These stickers are widely visible on trains, and I don't see why SC passengers shouldn't simply be making way for those who are entitled to a seat. Indeed, they tend to have plenty of extra legroom so are already improvements on the SC product.

Furthermore, you suggest that these passengers would move back to SC when asked to do so. Whilst I agree with this in principle, the notion of asking an 85 year old lady with a walking stick to clamber back several carriages because a seat has become available elsewhere on the train (particularly on longer trains like EC and Virgin) is completely unworkable. You're asking people to move around more when, by definition, you're offering them a seat because their mobility is impaired!

I think it'd be a sad reflection on society if those of us who are more able were not standing up to allow those who need it more to get a seat.

I do not disagree with you, if you look at my conditions then the likelihood of someone being moved into first class by the guard is fairly low, in that people around the person with limited mobility would have been asked by the guard to move. Even those who would not move when asked by an individual are fairly likely to do so when asked to do so by a member of train staff.

 

[aylesbury]

If someone has taken the trouble to buy first class tickets I think they would be pretty miffed if standard class passengers came in the coach. Last November I travelled to Birmingham on LM ,the train was full but another unit was added ,the driver announced plenty of room up front but a group of young people stayed in 1st on standard tickets(they announced this fact proudly) and then proceeded to proclaim their right to be there to the annoyance of many.Travelling ticket inspectors do a difficult job and should be supported as should guards .The other year a train manager on VT asked a group of us if we move around as he had a family coming on board and we said yes and helped the family to settle in and get off.

 

[Bevan Price]

It will come as news to Iarnrod Eireann that it only offers a single class.

As I wrote, it is many years since I was in Ireland, so things have obviously changed.
According to the 1975 CIE timetable, except on the Dublin - Belfast service, "first class" has been replaced by "super standard travel". A £1.50 supplement was charged for each journey in super-standard.

(Dublin - Cork standard class single was shown as £7.00 in 1975.)

However, except for Dublin - Cork, and Dublin - Limerick, the majority of services were shown as "standard class only" .

 

[fowler9]

I agree that if you want a guarantee of better service you should have to pay more, or lets say first class. However, almost half of a 9 car Pendo being first class is idiotic.