Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[jopsuk]

I'm still unclear what the plan for the Cambridgeshire villages is, given they're confirmed as being served by the Tattenham Corner services (8-car 700). Stopping with the train trailing across the A10 crossing at Foxton would presumably go poorly in the morning rush hour!

 

[bramling]

It's amazing just how self-centred some people's postings are on this forum.

If that is aimed at me, at the end of the day I know that given the times I normally travel, I am fairly well assured of a seat come 2018 -- albeit less comfortable than a 365 (or a 317).

Come 2018 I'm not so sure peak-time commuters will be so pleased to find a train which is currently 3x365 turns up with considerably fewer seats. As if this isn't bad enough, there are also guaranteed to be 8-car class 700 formations floating about in the peaks as given the number of them and the cross-London nature of the route it simply won't be possible to diagram them so they all avoid the busiest services between 0700-0900.

The attitude displayed earlier of "it'll be ok if you're boarding at Cambridge" will hardly benefit those elsewhere on the route commuting from stations further towards London, who currently have no difficulty getting a seat on most services.

Meanwhile, those travelling northbound towards the branches north of Hitchin will also not be pleased if their service is delayed coming off the Southern region. Not so much an issue with today's Thameslink which offers 4tph (or more) to most destinations north of London. Delays on a 2tph service will be much less acceptable, especially when it will mean spending the time standing on a crowded platform.

 

[AM9]

Er Class 377s and 700s do have SDO but villages not ideal for stopping long trains at.

Shepreth and Foxton appear to have crossings at the end of platforms, Meldreth doesn't though. Are the presence of crossings the reason why villages aren't favoured for SDO or are there other reasons?

 

[RobShipway]

Personally I think it is going to be one of the situations when it comes to the introduction of the Class 700 trains as to how the services pan out and what available space is available on the trains.

You cannot please everyone all of the time.

 

[Bald Rick]

For the villages, it will be either:

SDO, with the trains stopping forward of the platform to be clear the crossing where necessary

Platform extensions
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If that is aimed at me, at the end of the day I know that given the times I normally travel, I am fairly well assured of a seat come 2018 -- albeit less comfortable than a 365 (or a 317).

Come 2018 I'm not so sure peak-time commuters will be so pleased to find a train which is currently 3x365 turns up with considerably fewer seats. As if this isn't bad enough, there are also guaranteed to be 8-car class 700 formations floating about in the peaks as given the number of them and the cross-London nature of the route it simply won't be possible to diagram them so they all avoid the busiest services between 0700-0900.

The attitude displayed earlier of "it'll be ok if you're boarding at Cambridge" will hardly benefit those elsewhere on the route commuting from stations further towards London, who currently have no difficulty getting a seat on most services.

Meanwhile, those travelling northbound towards the branches north of Hitchin will also not be pleased if their service is delayed coming off the Southern region. Not so much an issue with today's Thameslink which offers 4tph (or more) to most destinations north of London. Delays on a 2tph service will be much less acceptable, especially when it will mean spending the time standing on a crowded platform.

Just to reiterate, there will be more services come 2018, so whilst some trains may have fewer seats, there will be more services to choose from.

Also, I have sat in first and standard on the 700s, and in my opinion they are more comfortable than the equivalents in 317s and 365s. As the 387 thread demonstrated, seating is definitely a matter of opinion.

On the last point, northbound trains will, naturally, be susceptible to delays earlier in the journey on the route from south of the river. However they won't be susceptible to delays southbound on the ECML as they are today, or more strictly speaking yesterday, with the shopping trolley at Welwyn.

 

[cyclebytrain]

For the villages, it will be either:

SDO, with the trains stopping forward of the platform to be clear the crossing where necessary

Platform extensions

Presumably the limiting factor on the SDO here will be getting the wheelchair accessible door platformed?

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably the limiting factor on the SDO here will be getting the wheelchair accessible door platformed?

It will only be 8 cars calling there, and an 8 car on a 4 car platform will always have at least one accessible door on the platform, regardless of where it stops.

 

[edwin_m]

It will only be 8 cars calling there, and an 8 car on a 4 car platform will always have at least one accessible door on the platform, regardless of where it stops.

It needs to be a bit more than 4 cars so that all the accessible doors (around the midpoint of the train) are on the platform. Otherwise there is a risk that a wheelchair user for one of these stations, who happens to use the wrong door at their origin station, will not be able to get off the train.

 

[swt_passenger]

It needs to be a bit more than 4 cars so that all the accessible doors (around the midpoint of the train) are on the platform. Otherwise there is a risk that a wheelchair user for one of these stations, who happens to use the wrong door at their origin station, will not be able to get off the train.

The pictures in the various posts about the interior layout (almost all taken at the midpoint of the train), suggest that the idea is that the wide inter-vehicle gangways allow the two accessible areas to be treated as one.

 

[edwin_m]

The pictures in the various posts about the interior layout (almost all taken at the midpoint of the train), suggest that the idea is that the wide inter-vehicle gangways allow the two accessible areas to be treated as one.

That's a possibility, though it may be interesting expecting a wheelchair user to do that in a crowded train.

 

[Class377/5]

The pictures in the various posts about the interior layout (almost all taken at the midpoint of the train), suggest that the idea is that the wide inter-vehicle gangways allow the two accessible areas to be treated as one.

Correct.

That's a possibility, though it may be interesting expecting a wheelchair user to do that in a crowded train.

That requires some operator action on the CIS/PIS to ensure its not so much an issue. In regards the example given, the passenger has a better chance on an 8 car than the current 4 cars.

 

[bramling]

For the villages, it will be either:

SDO, with the trains stopping forward of the platform to be clear the crossing where necessary

Platform extensions
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Just to reiterate, there will be more services come 2018, so whilst some trains may have fewer seats, there will be more services to choose from.

Also, I have sat in first and standard on the 700s, and in my opinion they are more comfortable than the equivalents in 317s and 365s. As the 387 thread demonstrated, seating is definitely a matter of opinion.

On the last point, northbound trains will, naturally, be susceptible to delays earlier in the journey on the route from south of the river. However they won't be susceptible to delays southbound on the ECML as they are today, or more strictly speaking yesterday, with the shopping trolley at Welwyn.

The difference of course being that trains and crews at King's Cross have a layover time, which quite often absorbs any incoming delays.

Limited opportunity to make any time up in the core due to following other trains, so apart from some padding between St Pancras and Finsbury Park I can't see how this will improve punctuality. And of course, when running on time any padding in this section will simply mean an increased journey time compared to today.

Can anyone provide a list of proposed southbound services from both Peterborough and Cambridge, arriving in London between 0730 and 0930, and what formations these services are likely to be? (in particular, which services will be formed of the 8-car class 700s). At least then it shouldn't be too hard to compare the difference in seating capacity. Likewise same for heading north from St Pancras between 1600 and 1900.

 

[AM9]

Can anyone provide a list of proposed southbound services from both Peterborough and Cambridge, arriving in London between 0730 and 0930, and what formations these services are likely to be? (in particular, which services will be formed of the 8-car class 700s). At least then it shouldn't be too hard to compare the difference in seating capacity. Likewise same for heading north from St Pancras between 1600 and 1900.

Wasn't there a thread about the planned timetable last year?

 

[physics34]

For the villages, it will be either:

SDO, with the trains stopping forward of the platform to be clear the crossing where necessary

Platform extensions
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Just to reiterate, there will be more services come 2018, so whilst some trains may have fewer seats, there will be more services to choose from.

this won't be the case for the Littlehampton, East Grinstead services and the Sutton loop?

 

[bramling]

Wasn't there a thread about the planned timetable last year?

We've seen what the off-peak service pattern will look like, however as far as I can tell nothing has been released officially about what the peak service will look like, and there has been nothing definite said about which services will be formed of 12 cars and which will be 8 cars.

If this is all supposed to be so wonderful, it would be good to see the evidence to support this. In the meantime, it's hard to see how more services can reliably be accommodated on the same congested infrastructure north of Finsbury Park, so it's concerning to know that the replacement trains will have roughly 125-150 less seats than comparable formations today, as well as mixing three service groups who are consistently among the worst performers in the country.

 

[AM9]

We've seen what the off-peak service pattern will look like, however as far as I can tell nothing has been released officially about what the peak service will look like, and there has been nothing definite said about which services will be formed of 12 cars and which will be 8 cars.

If this is all supposed to be so wonderful, it would be good to see the evidence to support this. In the meantime, it's hard to see how more services can reliably be accommodated on the same congested infrastructure north of Finsbury Park, so it's concerning to know that the replacement trains will have roughly 125-150 less seats than comparable formations today, as well as mixing three service groups who are consistently among the worst performers in the country.

It would be much more concerning if the net result of a £6Bn5 programme with all the delay and disruption that accompanies it gives us a service that within 10 years cannot cope with the peak passenger load, (based on projections of growth), because somebody decided that passengers who currently get seats should continue to get them at the expense of total capacity nearer the core. This programme is all about capacity.

Didn't somebody once say "the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many" - maybe it was said in the future.

 

[Class377/5]

We've seen what the off-peak service pattern will look like, however as far as I can tell nothing has been released officially about what the peak service will look like, and there has been nothing definite said about which services will be formed of 12 cars and which will be 8 cars.

If this is all supposed to be so wonderful, it would be good to see the evidence to support this. In the meantime, it's hard to see how more services can reliably be accommodated on the same congested infrastructure north of Finsbury Park, so it's concerning to know that the replacement trains will have roughly 125-150 less seats than comparable formations today, as well as mixing three service groups who are consistently among the worst performers in the country.

Actually of you read the map released by it shows both peak and of peak. The solid lines means all day service with the dotted lines a peak only service.

Expecting detailed info on the timetable at this point is stupid as it's a way off. The December 2015 timetable doesn't exist with they level of detail, expecting from the 2018 is unreasonable.

What I have said multiple times is 12 car routes will always be a mix. However the 8 car only services are easily worked out as many limited to 8 cars.

But as you seem unable to understand said diagrams heres the run down

8 car 'service groups'

* Luton^ /St Albans to Sutton
* Luton^ /Kentish Town to Sevenoaks
* Luton to Maidstone East^
* Tattenham Corner to Cambridge
* Caterham to Welwyn Garden City^

12 car capable 'service groups'

* Bedford to Brighton
* Bedford to Littlehampton^
* Bedford to East Grinstead^
* Bedford to Gatwick Airport/The Bridges^
* Peterborough to Horsham
* Cambridge to Brighton

^ means peak only

By Service groups I mean services linked together. For example of this the Bedford to Littlehampton service is actually Bedford to Three Bridges and Littlehampton to West Hampstead in the AM peak with the reverse in PM peak.

The release map had one curious feature which is a Bedford to London Bridge peak service. This is an error as there isn't time to terminate trains at London Bridge. There are also likely to be class 700 on non Thameslink branded services of peak but it's still not set and won't be until 2018.

 

[jopsuk]

The thing the maps don't show is the "Great Northern" service into Kings Cross. Cambridge will have the Express service half hourly using 377s, but as far as is known a number of 365s will be retained for peak time- it's unclear if this might include some "stopping" services

 

[Class377/5]

The thing the maps don't show is the "Great Northern" service into Kings Cross. Cambridge will have the Express service half hourly using 377s, but as far as is known a number of 365s will be retained for peak time- it's unclear if this might include some "stopping" services

365 for 12 car 2tph Kings Cross to Peterborough peak only service. It was worked out how many were staying on the other thread about Govia getting the franchise from the agreement.

 

[Bald Rick]

In the morning peak, everything out of Cambridge and Peterborough will be 12 cars, except the Cambridge trains to Tattenham which will call at the villages, which will be 8s. This includes the peak extras and the Kings Lynn starters (which will be made up to 12 at Cambridge).

Same in reverse pm peak.

 

[petersi]

It is also worth remembering that the southern end of the ecml will be ertms level 2 in the 2018-2020 time frame so once settled in would in theory provide a better service.
This may well lead to a more stable service.
Sorry for being off topic but does need to be thought about when talking about service reliability

 

[Yabbadabba]

We've got one coming over soon to Three Bridges Depot for signal sighting test, special Intructions for how to get the train into and out of the depot have just been written but not issued yet.

 

[Class377/5]

We've got one coming over soon to Three Bridges Depot for signal sighting test, special Intructions for how to get the train into and out of the depot have just been written but not issued yet.

You mean the 387 not the 700 (which is what this thread is all about).

 

[bramling]

Actually of you read the map released by it shows both peak and of peak. The solid lines means all day service with the dotted lines a peak only service.

Expecting detailed info on the timetable at this point is stupid as it's a way off. The December 2015 timetable doesn't exist with they level of detail, expecting from the 2018 is unreasonable.

What I have said multiple times is 12 car routes will always be a mix. However the 8 car only services are easily worked out as many limited to 8 cars.

But as you seem unable to understand said diagrams heres the run down

8 car 'service groups'

* Luton^ /St Albans to Sutton
* Luton^ /Kentish Town to Sevenoaks
* Luton to Maidstone East^
* Tattenham Corner to Cambridge
* Caterham to Welwyn Garden City^

12 car capable 'service groups'

* Bedford to Brighton
* Bedford to Littlehampton^
* Bedford to East Grinstead^
* Bedford to Gatwick Airport/The Bridges^
* Peterborough to Horsham
* Cambridge to Brighton

^ means peak only

By Service groups I mean services linked together. For example of this the Bedford to Littlehampton service is actually Bedford to Three Bridges and Littlehampton to West Hampstead in the AM peak with the reverse in PM peak.

The release map had one curious feature which is a Bedford to London Bridge peak service. This is an error as there isn't time to terminate trains at London Bridge. There are also likely to be class 700 on non Thameslink branded services of peak but it's still not set and won't be until 2018.

I am fully able to understand what the service patterns are, however unless I've missed something you have written nothing about frequency.

If these are going to be 2tph through the peaks, this will represent a decline in frequency coming off the Cambridge branch through the morning peak.

So a simple question, how many trains are planned to arrive in London, from north of Stevenage, between 0730 and 0900?

If this is not yet finalised, all the promises that this will all work out allright in the end, are unfounded. We've already established that at least some of these services will be only 8 cars.

 

[Class377/5]

I am fully able to understand what the service patterns are, however unless I've missed something you have written nothing about frequency.

If these are going to be 2tph through the peaks, this will represent a decline in frequency coming off the Cambridge branch through the morning peak.

So a simple question, how many trains are planned to arrive in London, from north of Stevenage, between 0730 and 0900?

If this is not yet finalised, all the promises that this will all work out allright in the end, are unfounded. We've already established that at least some of these services will be only 8 cars.

Your confusing Thameslink service plan is the only service plan. Not quite sure how valid your dig of some services being 8 cars. Seeing as some stations are only four cars, it seems your trying to pick at everything and anything because you haven't personally been given a full run down of something that's not fully set yet.

Demanding details like how many trains etc is pointless on your behalf as if the timetable hasn't been fully written then you cant be told.

As for your belief that's that promises will be unfulfilled, what tosh. With more carriages running more trains, anyone claiming a lack of capacity is silly.

Quite frankly you're derailing a thread about the trains so you can have a stoop because you are demanded to know have the full workings of something that doesn't exist yet. You have continued to drive home your obsession for detail knowledge of the December 2018 timetable yet cant understand why is isn't possible when the December 2015 is written down on this detail, ley alone one three years later!

 

[bramling]

Your confusing Thameslink service plan is the only service plan. Not quite sure how valid your dig of some services being 8 cars. Seeing as some stations are only four cars, it seems your trying to pick at everything and anything because you haven't personally been given a full run down of something that's not fully set yet.

Demanding details like how many trains etc is pointless on your behalf as if the timetable hasn't been fully written then you cant be told.

As for your belief that's that promises will be unfulfilled, what tosh. With more carriages running more trains, anyone claiming a lack of capacity is silly.

Quite frankly you're derailing a thread about the trains so you can have a stoop because you are demanded to know have the full workings of something that doesn't exist yet. You have continued to drive home your obsession for detail knowledge of the December 2018 timetable yet cant understand why is isn't possible when the December 2015 is written down on this detail, ley alone one three years later!

So, you're saying there will be more services and more carriages, but you can't provide any evidence to prove it.

Regarding the 8 car trains, it's not picking, we've established through posts to this thread that these trains will (under current plans) be forming part of the peak service at busy stations such as Hitchin and Stevenage, with around 125 seats less per train than a comparable service today. So the specification of the train is very relevant if, come 2018, you have to use one of these services.

 

[RobShipway]

So, you're saying there will be more services and more carriages, but you can't provide any evidence to prove it.

Regarding the 8 car trains, it's not picking, we've established through posts to this thread that these trains will (under current plans) be forming part of the peak service at busy stations such as Hitchin and Stevenage, with around 125 seats less per train than a comparable service today. So the specification of the train is very relevant if, come 2018, you have to use one of these services.

Have you used the link http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/about-us/ to see how the changes that come into place in 2018 will effect you at all?

You may also want to look at http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_page_media/1273/Proposed 2018 Thameslink service pattern.pdf

Both of the above items I believe have been discussed in this thread already?

 

[67018]

So, you're saying there will be more services and more carriages, but you can't provide any evidence to prove it.

Regarding the 8 car trains, it's not picking, we've established through posts to this thread that these trains will (under current plans) be forming part of the peak service at busy stations such as Hitchin and Stevenage, with around 125 seats less per train than a comparable service today. So the specification of the train is very relevant if, come 2018, you have to use one of these services.

Well, if there aren't going to be more services and more carriages, they are going to need an awful lot of sidings to store all those trains they are building.

And unless I've missed something, those 8 car trains are going to be on services that are currently 4 car.

 

[Bedpan]

Sorry, wrong thread!

 

[jon0844]

There may (will) be less seats on an 8-car 700 compared to other trains in use today, but that's because it's 2+2 seating and with more room for standing.

Thus, you'll be able to move crowds around much easier. The open gangways will be a huge benefit too, as - hopefully - people will move down. If the trains also know which bits are busy, those huge LCD displays should also help distribute people around the carriages more effectively.

Sure, some people just won't budge. On Thursday, I once again saw that when a 4-car train was cancelled out of KGX so the next one I was waiting for at FPK was already very busy when it arrived. Despite everyone wanting to get on the previous train now forced to squeeze on, there were people refusing to move down the aisle of the 321. Sure, it's not that easy to do - but I stood to Welwyn Garden City and saw seats in the middle of the country end carriage, and a seat nearest the cab!

For the most part, despite the many concerns I have about timekeeping, I do think the new trains will have loads more capacity - even if you might be standing for more of the journey than before.