Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Fincra5]

The cycle storage area is the only iffy bit of the layout that I can see if people are already sat in the tip-up seats when someone with a bike wants to board the train or if people have got their luggage there

Probably do what they do now.... leave the bikes in every doorway.

 

[AM9]

The cycle storage area is the only iffy bit of the layout that I can see if people are already sat in the tip-up seats when someone with a bike wants to board the train or if people have got their luggage there

Suitable notices warning space-blockers that they will be required to move if cyclists subsequently board the train. Given that carriage of cycles is only allowed off-peak over the most crowded parts of the line, problems like that shouldn't occur too often.
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But more room for standing.....

Which will be apreciated if passenger numbers continue to rise through the working life of the stock.

 

[physics34]

......

 

[Deepgreen]

Same first class and cycle storage provision in a 12 car as 8 car unit - why the reduced proportion? Also only 1 wheelchair-accessible toilet in a 12 car! Compare with 377s which have 1 for every 4 cars - if I was a wheelchair user I wouldn't fancy wheeling myself through up to 6 cars to get to the single central toilet!

 

[swt_passenger]

...if I was a wheelchair user I wouldn't fancy wheeling myself through up to 6 cars to get to the single central toilet!

That would mean 'as a wheelchair user' you would have disregarded the point that the stations will be adapted to ensure that all wheelchair users get on at the right position with respect to the train, which will be where the platform hump to allow level access is fitted.

If your hypothetical wheelchair user insists on getting on in coach 1 or 12 he'll only have himself to blame.

 

[edwin_m]

That would mean 'as a wheelchair user' you would have disregarded the point that the stations will be adapted to ensure that all wheelchair users get on at the right position with respect to the train, which will be where the platform hump to allow level access is fitted.

If your hypothetical wheelchair user insists on getting on in coach 1 or 12 he'll only have himself to blame.

Will there be a platform hump? I thought this (or at least one that provides level access) was incompatible with the clearances needed on any line that carries freight.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will there be a platform hump? I thought this (or at least one that provides level access) was incompatible with the clearances needed on any line that carries freight.

It's been widely reported that Thameslink stations will get humps of the same style as used on LU, but even if it is in the core only, it would still be a bit daft not to encourage wheelchair passengers to get on where they could easily get off?

 

[Class377/5]

Will there be a platform hump? I thought this (or at least one that provides level access) was incompatible with the clearances needed on any line that carries freight.

On Core stations where dwell times is critical, yes. Other wheelchair arable stations will have staff with ramps as now.

The platform humps will be installed during 2018 as it requires the use of one single fleet.

 

[Hadders]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadders View Post
But more room for standing.....

Which will be apreciated if passenger numbers continue to rise through the working life of the stock.

That's fine for short journeys but at what point does it become unacceptable for passengers to stand during normal journeys (ie. not those adversely affected by one-off events, disruption etc.)

These trains will be used on some long-ish distance services. I wouldn't fancy standing from Cambridge, Peterborough or Brighton to London, for example.

Surely the next major capacity increase would need to be from new signalling allowing more trains to run on the MML, ECML and Brighton Mainlines - potentially back into terminus stations if the core is at capacity, rather than planning to make more people stand.

 

[AM9]

That's fine for short journeys but at what point does it become unacceptable for passengers to stand during normal journeys (ie. not those adversely affected by one-off events, disruption etc.)

These trains will be used on some long-ish distance services. I wouldn't fancy standing from Cambridge, Peterborough or Brighton to London, for example.

Surely the next major capacity increase would need to be from new signalling allowing more trains to run on the MML, ECML and Brighton Mainlines - potentially back into terminus stations if the core is at capacity, rather than planning to make more people stand.

To be honest, we don't know how the loading will pan out over time. As time goes on, the point at which all seats are taken will move away from London. As far as I can see there are limited options for increasing capacity through the core once the maximum rate of 32 tph is reached. The main one would be to ditch the wasteful practice of running the 8-car Sutton Loop trains through the core.They should all be terminated at Blackfriars as originally planned. That would allow their paths to be taken up by 12-car trains using SDO where necessary. I'm not sure if Sevenoaks trains are 8-car, but maybe they could have similar treatment.
There wouldn't be much point in increasing the number of seats on the 700s as that would reduce their total capacity and increase dwell times.
The problem with running more MML trains into STP is that they would take up paths that higher capacity 700s use. They could of course increase all MML trains to 10 or 12-car length to maximisew their capacity. The Corby/Kettering services could be 12-car 387s or similar if the HL platforms 1-4 are long enough.
Increasing capacity from the south is a different kettle of fish as the lines are already intensively worked by SE & Southern.
Maybe a solution for the metro traffic is to feed Crossrail 2 from a spur starting near Tooting or using Wimbledon, running through to Sutton.

 

[Bald Rick]

Will there be a platform hump? I thought this (or at least one that provides level access) was incompatible with the clearances needed on any line that carries freight.

Humps in the core. Also the ramps that will be deployed at all other stations will only fit on the doors of the two coaches that have wheelchair spaces.
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These trains will be used on some long-ish distance services. I wouldn't fancy standing from Cambridge, Peterborough or Brighton to London, for example.

And you wouldn't need to. Turn up early enough for your Thameslink train at these stations and you're guaranteed a seat.

 

[bramling]

Humps in the core. Also the ramps that will be deployed at all other stations will only fit on the doors of the two coaches that have wheelchair spaces.
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And you wouldn't need to. Turn up early enough for your Thameslink train at these stations and you're guaranteed a seat.

Great. Unfortunately same won't apply at the other 14 stations between Cambridge and London. For those passengers, the train will have less seats - which is unacceptable considering most peak-time passengers get seats from these stations today, except on the very busiest services.

 

[Hadders]

Turn up early enough for your Thameslink train at these stations and you're guaranteed a seat.

Ok but what about coming back?

 

[physics34]

And you wouldn't need to. Turn up early enough for your Thameslink train at these stations and you're guaranteed a seat.

its more a problem for people a few stations down the line at say Worthing, Hove, Hassocks, Oxted etc etc, all seats will be taken by the time the train gets to these places.

 

[TimG]

its more a problem for people a few stations down the line at say Worthing, Hove, Hassocks, Oxted etc etc, all seats will be taken by the time the train gets to these places.

Well at present I just sit on the floor if necessary. I'll only stand if sitting results in my face being in someone's crotch.

 

[Bald Rick]

Great. Unfortunately same won't apply at the other 14 stations between Cambridge and London. For those passengers, the train will have less seats - which is unacceptable considering most peak-time passengers get seats from these stations today, except on the very busiest services.

Except there will be more seats throughout the peak, as there will be more services from 2018, and the majority of them will be 12 car. IIRC a 12 car 700 has more seats than an 8 car 365.
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Ok but what about coming back?

Get on at Blackfriars or City TL. Works for me!

 

[AM9]

its more a problem for people a few stations down the line at say Worthing, Hove, Hassocks, Oxted etc etc, all seats will be taken by the time the train gets to these places.

Well they could always fit 2+3 seating in a few years.

 

[Class377/5]

its more a problem for people a few stations down the line at say Worthing, Hove, Hassocks, Oxted etc etc, all seats will be taken by the time the train gets to these places.

More seats than present means better chance. However in high peak when trains are full and standing from Brighton (12 car Thameslink train already suffers this) there is limited benefits of what can be provided by just lengthening trains. However work is under way for a plan to increasing paths to give more services so better chance at getting a seat for stations down the line but the reality is unless you start spending billions and billions then you can't guarantee a seat for everyone people. Especially not in high peak.

 

[Minstral25]

closest thing ive found:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mattbuck007/12837538835/sizes/o/

Thank You - exactly what I needed

 

[Emyr]

Two separate bike storage areas means if you stand where you expect one of them to stop, you might need to walk 6 carriages along the platform to the other space.

 

[whoosh]

Cycle space and disabled space will be in the same
Position on the platform for 8 and 12 coaches (based around the centre of the train stopping in the same place.

The only people who'll need to walk are first class passengers if they are expecting a train of a different length to turn up.
Regular commuters will know what length their train is.

 

[edwin_m]

Cycle space and disabled space will be in the same
Position on the platform for 8 and 12 coaches (based around the centre of the train stopping in the same place.

Not according to the diagram 2 posts above yours! (Edit: I think you are trying to say they are the same places between both train types, but I interpreted that as you saying there would be dual-purpose wheelchair/cycle places as with Turbostars).

Are they providing duplicate sets of DOO equipment so an 8-car can stop two cars short of the 12-car stopping position? If not then the wheelchair and cycle positions will be in a difference place on the platform according to the length of the train.

 

[whoosh]

The centre of the train is the red dotted line. The green box is for cycles - at the inner end of the forth coach from the centre line - the same on 8s and 12s.

DOO cameras will be fitted on the sides of the coaches , with monitors in the cabs. The screens on the left in
this picture.

 

[bramling]

Except there will be more seats throughout the peak, as there will be more services from 2018, and the majority of them will be 12 car. IIRC a 12 car 700 has more seats than an 8 car 365.
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Get on at Blackfriars or City TL. Works for me!

Will stations such as Knebworth and Welwyn North be served by 12-car 700s?

Currently, from the latest timetable, the train I take to London is 2x365, normally there will be no more than 10 people in the carriage, some days less. On my regular return train I can often have a carriage to myself the whole journey from King's Cross to Hitchin. My place of work is within 2 mins of stepping off the train at King's Cross.

So, from 2018, an inferior train, taking me to places I don't want to go, and almost certainly less reliable and punctual than today. See why I am not a fan?

 

[AM9]

Will stations such as Knebworth and Welwyn North be served by 12-car 700s?

Currently, from the latest timetable, the train I take to London is 2x365, normally there will be no more than 10 people in the carriage, some days less. On my regular return train I can often have a carriage to myself the whole journey from King's Cross to Hitchin. My place of work is within 2 mins of stepping off the train at King's Cross.

So, from 2018, an inferior train, taking me to places I don't want to go, and almost certainly less reliable and punctual than today. See why I am not a fan?

Well I'm sure GTR will recast their services at everybody else's cost just so that you aren't inconvenienced, (if you ask them very nicely).

 

[Class377/5]

Well I'm sure GTR will recast their services at everybody else's cost just so that you aren't inconvenienced, (if you ask them very nicely).

Will stations such as Knebworth and Welwyn North be served by 12-car 700s?

Depends on your travelling time and which service as 12 car routes will have 8 cars on them.

Currently, from the latest timetable, the train I take to London is 2x365, normally there will be no more than 10 people in the carriage, some days less. On my regular return train I can often have a carriage to myself the whole journey from King's Cross to Hitchin. My place of work is within 2 mins of stepping off the train at King's Cross.

So an extra couple of minutes walk if you board a Thameslink service then.

So, from 2018, an inferior train,

Opinion

taking me to places I don't want to go,

What? Are you trying to say St Pancras is not the same place as Kinds Cross then? Its across the road from each other and certainly only a few minutes at best difference. Not that you won't have Kings Cross train so if you end up at St Pancras it'll be your own choosing so not actually traking you where you don't want to go!

and almost certain less reliable and punctual than today. See why I am not a fan?

Again opinion based in no fact. Considering Thameslink PPM was last year similar to the GNs on the daily basis can't really see your justification for your view.

Too many people are guessing at what's happening then treating that as fact and wondering why those involved don't share thier opinion.

 

[AM9]

Depends on your travelling time and which service as 12 car routes will have 8 cars on them.



So an extra couple of minutes walk if you board a Thameslink service then.



Opinion



What? Are you trying to say St Pancras is not the same place as Kinds Cross then? Its across the road from each other and certainly only a few minutes at best difference. Not that you won't have Kings Cross train so if you end up at St Pancras it'll be your own choosing so not actually traking you where you don't want to go!



Again opinion based in no fact. Considering Thameslink PPM was last year similar to the GNs on the daily basis can't really see your justification for your view.

Too many people are guessing at what's happening then treating that as fact and wondering why those involved don't share thier opinion.

It's amazing just how self-centred some people's postings are on this forum.

 

[Passenger John]

S what about the stations that only can take 4 carriages, Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton

 

[southern442]

S what about the stations that only can take 4 carriages, Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton

Well then only the front 4 coaches will open their doors there! Problem solved! :roll:

I would be very surprised if the 700's did not have SDO.

 

[Class377/5]

S what about the stations that only can take 4 carriages, Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton

Er Class 377s and 700s do have SDO but villages not ideal for stopping long trains at.