LM Cross City Revenue Blocks

[FenMan]

To my mind, lines that have stations that close together should be completely barriered, which makes sense as they are likely to be commuter/urban services.

By this definition all North Downs Line stations between Wokingham and Ash and then Shalford to Redhill would need to be manned and barriered.

But there again, perhaps not.

 

[najaB]

By this definition all North Downs Line stations between Wokingham and Ash and then Shalford to Redhill would need to be manned and barriered.

I'm not from that part of the world, but there's an obvious difference in calling patterns along the route (some stations get 2tph, some get 1 train every two hours) - so how about if I modify my suggestion "stations that close together which have frequent services should be completely barriered"?

 

[FenMan]

I'm not from that part of the world, but there's an obvious difference in calling patterns along the route (some stations get 2tph, some get 1 train every two hours) - so how about if I modify my suggestion "stations that close together which have frequent services should be completely barriered"?

Well, for the North Downs stations with half-hourly service, that would mean FGW shelling out a significant amount at Blackwater and Dorking Deepdene (both unstaffed) and North Camp. Wokingham isn't barriered either, despite a new station building being opened last year and a regular pattern of 8 trains an hour.

Also, on the Ascot - Guildford branch, which has a half-hourly service and overlaps with the North Downs, SWT would incur a large sum to barrier (and staff appropriately) Bagshot, Camberley, Frimley, Ash Vale, Ash and Wanborough.

The cost/benefit equation doesn't work I'm afraid.

 

[the sniper]

Speaking of Aston a TVM on the Birmingham platform would be a good idea.

There is a TVM on the Birmingham platform, it's in the shelter. It's one of the newer card only ones though.

 

[najaB]

The cost/benefit equation doesn't work I'm afraid.

I defer to the honourable gentleman and withdraw my submission.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a TVM on the Birmingham platform, it's in the shelter. It's one of the newer card only ones though.

As cash is the biggest cost in operating a TVM, I wonder when we will get to (or near) the point where cash is so little used in society it's reasonable not to accept it any more?

10 years maybe?

Neil

 

[Greenback]

Neil, I wonder if it might be better if you could post your ideas in a separate thread so that they can be scrutinised and discussed in one place, rather than appearing to be introduced on threads that are meant to be dealing with specific issues related to particular incidents?

When a discussion goes off on a tangent it can be unhelpful and maybe even irritating to the OP. I for one don't want to stifle discussion, or to prevent suggestions being made, but there's a time and a place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Neil, I wonder if it might be better if you could post your ideas in a separate thread so that they can be scrutinised and discussed in one place, rather than appearing to be introduced on threads that are meant to be dealing with specific issues related to particular incidents?

When a discussion goes off on a tangent it can be unhelpful and maybe even irritating to the OP. I for one don't want to stifle discussion, or to prevent suggestions being made, but there's a time and a place.

Yes, fair point. There was another one that was sort-of more fitting, though perhaps a new one would make sense. May well start it later on.

That way I suppose all the proposals/ideas could be collected together (and those who aren't interested can just ignore it).

Neil

 

[Greenback]

That way I suppose all the proposals/ideas could be collected together (and those who aren't interested can just ignore it).

Neil

Yes, exactly. It's better to keep threads on topic, as members will come and read it based on the subject, not what may crop up when a discussion develops.

Similarly, people who may be interested in something you suggest may not think such a discussion would even be taking place if they choose not to visit a thread based on the title.

 

[SS4]

There is a TVM on the Birmingham platform, it's in the shelter. It's one of the newer card only ones though.

Shows how long it's been since I last passed through (if I go to town these days I get the bus).

As cash is the biggest cost in operating a TVM, I wonder when we will get to (or near) the point where cash is so little used in society it's reasonable not to accept it any more?

10 years maybe?

Neil

Cash will always have a place in society as long as banks issue online-only cards and especially if they don't tell customers that they've done so. Accepting contactless payment would be a start especially for cheaper fares such as on the X-City line

 

[infobleep]

Well, for the North Downs stations with half-hourly service, that would mean FGW shelling out a significant amount at Blackwater and Dorking Deepdene (both unstaffed) and North Camp. Wokingham isn't barriered either, despite a new station building being opened last year and a regular pattern of 8 trains an hour.

Also, on the Ascot - Guildford branch, which has a half-hourly service and overlaps with the North Downs, SWT would incur a large sum to barrier (and staff appropriately) Bagshot, Camberley, Frimley, Ash Vale, Ash and Wanborough.

The cost/benefit equation doesn't work I'm afraid.

Interesting that Wokingham is ungated yet has 8 trains an hour yet Aldershot has 8 trains and an hour and is gated.

Portsmouth and Southsea is gated, where as Portsmouth Harbour isn't. Clearly Southsea has more trains but still you'd think they'd gate the other anyway as it still has 12 services and 2 ships arriving and departing. As for Lewes that has 14 services and an ungated side entrance.

Haywards Heath has both entrances gated and they use video monitors to open the back entrance barriers. Guildford has two entrances but they don't use video mentors to open the barriers at the back, preferring to leave the back entrance barriers open when only staffed at the front entrance.

 

[bussnapperwm]

What they should have done is S5 prosecutions, made them go to court with no acceptance of a Out of Court settlement and push for maximum sentences.

The way I see it is if I have to buy a VALID ticket for my journey then they should too...

We need to be tough on this kind of crime because otherwise it will get worse.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I believe that our new Revenue chap has been told to crack down on the Cross-City, but it brings in so little revenue, I don't see the point.

I think the idea on the Cross-City is more to do with the "broken windows" idea than anything else. Having regular checks on the Cross-City will cut down on anti-social behaviour as much as increase revenue.

There is a PR issue too, as if tickets are never checked then the 'honest' passengers will get angry that they're paying whilst the anti-social passengers are getting a free ride. It doesn't take that anger to go too far before the 'honest' passengers decide they don't want to pay after all.

That said, proper barriers at New Street would have been a good solution, as most people are going to New Street. I'm surprised there isn't a proper barrier at New Street station, they had the perfect opportunity with the new concourse.

Hemel Hempstead has barriers but it's the only station that does. I think LM's attitude with the southern WCML is that they believe that most people going to London will get stopped and pay at Euston, if not before. It would explain a lot about their attitude to ticket office staffing on the southern WCML, with the ticket offices at even the bigger stations like Berkhamsted shutting surprisingly early.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think LM's attitude with the southern WCML is that they believe that most people going to London will get stopped and pay at Euston, if not before.

As outside the peak most trains go into barriered platforms 8-11, and the vast majority of journeys are to/from Euston (probably second most MK, Hemel or Watford, all of which are barriered), I imagine they are probably right. In the peak, almost everyone is on a season ticket. In the evening, almost everyone is on a return half or season ticket. So that leaves very small amounts of fare dodging between other intermediate stations, which might genuinely not be worth their while[1] bothering about.

As for the ticket offices, most people travelling to London do so for a full day, or at least a morning or afternoon. So very few tickets are going to be sold in the late afternoon/evening, unless they are for tomorrow.

[1] Morally it might be desirable if they did pursue all fare dodging, as honest passengers are paying for it, but train companies do not exist for moral reasons, they exist to make a profit.

Neil

 

[CharlieSpotted]

That said, proper barriers at New Street would have been a good solution, as most people are going to New Street. I'm surprised there isn't a proper barrier at New Street station, they had the perfect opportunity with the new concourse.

I understand automatic barriers are coming when the station as a whole is finished in the Autumn. Possibly to coincide with a wider rollout of LM's "The Key" smartcard and Centro's "Swift" card.

 

[Ostrich]

Perhaps a problem with rolling out barriers at suburban stations on the Cross City line is that the Senior Citizens bus pass is valid for Centro rail services. The card doesn't work the barriers, so they have to be permanently manned when in operation. Which I suspect would mean an increase in staffing levels at many of those stations?

 

[dvboy]

I understand automatic barriers are coming when the station as a whole is finished in the Autumn. Possibly to coincide with a wider rollout of LM's "The Key" smartcard and Centro's "Swift" card.

Don't get me started on smartcards - the station will be finished and the barriers in place long before you see The Key and Swift being used at New Street.

LM used to barrier every access to the main concourse at New Street - now in the peaks they usually only barrier one of them. Get off a peak time train at New Street and I guarantee you'll see at least five people do an about turn the moment they see the barrier - they're heading back to the platform to come up the other side.

If they're going to revenue protect Cross City, they want to do it on Coventry, Walsall and Wolverhampton stoppers also, and perhaps not tell the bloody media when they're doing it either.

Off the top of my head, here in Centroland we have automatic barriers at LM stations Snow Hill, University and Five Ways and Chiltern's Moor Street (installed by LM when they managed the station). In my opinion that's a poor effort when you consider the size of the conurbation but that's Centro for you.
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Perhaps a problem with rolling out barriers at suburban stations on the Cross City line is that the Senior Citizens bus pass is valid for Centro rail services. The card doesn't work the barriers, so they have to be permanently manned when in operation. Which I suspect would mean an increase in staffing levels at many of those stations?

They'd need to have smart card readers, which I assume they would anyway for futureproofing.

 

[island]

Perhaps a problem with rolling out barriers at suburban stations on the Cross City line is that the Senior Citizens bus pass is valid for Centro rail services. The card doesn't work the barriers, so they have to be permanently manned when in operation. Which I suspect would mean an increase in staffing levels at many of those stations?

All barriers everywhere must be attended whilst in operation (in certain limited cases this can be done remotely from another part of the station).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Whose fault is it that fare evasion is so high?

At a simplistic (and legal) level, it is generally the fault of the passenger – if they have passed an opportunity to pay, then they should have done so. Usual caveats apply such as staff gone AWOL, TVM broken, only have cash, only have card etc.

However, an individual’s behaviour in any specific circumstance will be determined by a number of factors, including;
1) The price of the ticket (in relation to income, alternatives and the cost of living generally),
2) The ease of opportunity to pay,
3) The level of enforcement,
4) The impact of not paying (from just ‘pay on the day what you would have paid anyway’ through to a prison sentence),
5) Previous knowledge / experience (their own, that of friends and colleagues, and observation of others).

Of those five points, all are within the control of the rail industry rather than the individual passenger.

1) Rail tickets are the price they are, you can either afford it or you can’t. If you can’t afford it you can’t travel by train. Move house, change jobs, shop more locally, go by bus, get a lift, buy a bike / moped / car.

2) The rail industry (in which I include the DfT and PTA’s as funders) is responsible for the location and opening hours of ticket offices, it is responsible for the provision of TVM’s, it is responsible for devising pre-purchase products (season tickets / smart cards etc), all of which determine the ease of opportunity to pay.

3) The rail industry is responsible for the extent and type of revenue enforcement carried out. It is responsible for providing / managing staff on trains and at stations. It chooses the frequency / extent of enforcement campaigns. It chose to make virtually all stations ‘open’ – it is not that long since all main stations had staffed ticket barriers so the opportunity to (easily) board a train without a ticket simply didn’t exist.

4) The rail industry is responsible for the complete mess that is ‘remedial’ activity. Across the national network the range of options presented to the ticketless (or wrongly ticketed) traveller is bewildering. To a regular traveller within a narrow geographical area (e.g. a single TOC) it may well be clear and obvious what the rules are within that area, and people can be expected to comply or face the penalty. But, travel outside your comfort zone, and you could be mistaken for thinking you are travelling on a completely different railway network. Pity the poor traveller who does a tour of the country: rural Cumbria one day (pay on train, normal fares with all discounts apply), urban Greater Manchester the next (civil ‘failure to pay’ scheme), urban West Midlands the next (formal Penalty Fare scheme) and then into Network land (gates at every station). Now, if you were to meet all those on a single day or even a single journey, which regime should / would the transgressing passenger be subjected to – I’m looking here at a Virgin West Coast Glasgow to London via Birmingham service with connections! On Virgin, of course, the whole range of fares from Full Standard Single to full range of discounted tickets is, seemingly, randomly applied.

5) If all ones friends and colleagues are saying “oh, I never pay”, “I’ve never had my ticket checked”. If ones personal experience confirms that to be the case and it is always the case that you can get on the train, travel, and get off the train without sight of any railway staff, is it really such a surprise that a large number of people have stopped paying for their journeys? Is it a question of honesty or integrity, or is it a question of stupidity i.e. you are stupid to pay for something when you don’t have to and no-one else does?

For a given 100 people, 10 (say) will always pay, come what may, even going well out of their way to ensure they have a ticket. At the other end of the spectrum, 10 (say) will never pay, come what may, going well out of their way to avoid payment by climbing fences, hiding in toilets or walking off down the track to exit the station through a hole in the fence. It is the 80 in between that revenue protection is about; the easier it is to pay, the higher the level of enforcement, the stiffer the penalty, then the lower the amount of fare evasion. As you reduce the first three, the latter will increase. Virtually abandon the first three and hardly anyone will bother to pay.

Obvious really, but some TOC’s seem to live in a world where they feel that they need make no effort themselves to sell tickets to people, ‘naively’ expect every traveller to pro-actively seek out an opportunity to pay, and then express outrage when fare evasion become endemic. Of course, with strict liability and criminal sanctions, they don’t have to make any effort do they!

People tend not to like retailing analogies, but you can have one anyway.

As a means of increasing efficiency / reducing losses, a major supermarket chain removes all of the payment kiosks at its petrol forecourts. Instead offering people the opportunity to buy in advance, pay at pump, or pay at an alternative location – the supermarket itself. At the same time it displays prominent signs ‘you must pay for your petrol at the first opportunity’ and ‘if no payment facilities are available you may pay at any point during or at the end of your shopping trip’. Would the number of people leaving without paying for some, or all, of their petrol;
a) stay the same,
b) increase,
c) decrease.

Bringing it back to context, I was for a good while in the late 1980’s a student in Birmingham, using the cross-city line on frequent basis. Then, at the stations I regularly used, (Perry Barr, New Street and Five Ways), there were staff at the entrance to stations checking tickets. At Perry Barr, the person came out of the ticket office and stood in the entranceway, at New Street there were permanently staffed plastic booths, at Five Ways there was a plastic booth (staffed peak hours only) at the top of the stairs along with ticket office staff. If I remember correctly, all other stations had similar arrangements. Who decided to cut those staff/ change those arrangements, on what basis, and what consequences did they expect? What increase in fare evasion was expected and what has panned out in practice?

The posts upthread seem to suggest that the cross-city line (and LM generally) has become some lawless wildwest where payment is an optional extra! Whose fault is that? Having said that, LM staff on the Crewe – London and Liverpool – Birmingham routes generally come through the train after each stop, which is how it should be.

You do not need to staff every station in the land 24/7/365, merely have intelligent, targeted revenue protection – of sufficiently frequent use to change attitudes and behaviours, appropriate to the location. Heavily used urban services with frequent stops needs a different approach to Berney Arms! It is unreasonable to expect a guard to do his duties dispatching the train whilst at the same time checking all tickets on a 3 or 4 car unit e.g. Cross City Line or Leeds – Skipton. One answer is DOO, releasing the guard to carry out revenue functions. Another is frequent but random ‘spot’ blocks at stations, another is roving packs of revenue inspectors on board most trains. The higher the profile, the higher the chance of being caught.

 

[Hazlehead]

Have to say quite a good sensible post there. Fair comments and solutions. Of course you do realise that Railway Management aren't interested in common sense

 

[Kite159]

Heavily used urban services with frequent stops needs to be either Glasgow style DOO with a guard going up and down the train checking tickets, or having 2 guards on board, one to stay in the back to do the doors etc, the other to check tickets.

Revenue blocks at certain stations will work if they post lookouts to catch passengers doubling back if they see the block.

 

[plastictaffy]

You do get a fair bit of late-night fare dodging to/from Euston, but the vast majority are on season tickets in the peak, and most trains off-peak operate to/from 8-11 at Euston which are barriered. And most people by far are going to/from London, so are likely to hit barriers at one end.



Neil

Sure?? The xx46 usually goes off 7, and the xx49 almost always goes off 17. The amount of fare dodging that goes on is incredible. The punters know where we need to be and when, and know that they will get away with dodging the fare most days. They only ever buy singles to/from Leighton Buzzard when challenged. If that's once a week, they're still saving a hell of a lot of money.

A few weeks ago, my colleague was booked to work the 0739 off Bletchley in the morning, but it failed on prep, so she was told to travel to London on the next available, which was mine, calling all stations. We decided to split the revenue. She did the rear 6, I did the front 6. Usually, the front 4-6 would be done anyway, not often the rear 4. She took nearly three times what I did, and apparently the punters were very surprised to see her - and told her so.
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The posts upthread seem to suggest that the cross-city line (and LM generally) has become some lawless wildwest where payment is an optional extra! Whose fault is that? Having said that, LM staff on the Crewe – London and Liverpool – Birmingham routes generally come through the train after each stop, which is how it should be.

It is on the Cross City, and will remain so for as long as the Shareholders demand a ridiculous return on their money, and therefore make it nearly impossible to employ more RPI's. Until then, fare dodging WILL remain rife. Thank god I don't sign the Cross City...........

 

[jon0844]

Whose fault is it that fare evasion is so high?

That post should be made a sticky. It's spot on and could be mentioned in so many threads on here!

One thing to add is that if you don't do effective enforcement, with random spot checks (often with the assistance of police that will do their own checks to catch wanted people, those carrying drugs etc) and with tough punishments is that you run the risk of people starting to think that only a mug buys a ticket.

You then create a mindset that everyone else is getting away without paying, so why are you one of those 10 in a 100 that goes out of their way to pay? Why are you being 'punished' for doing the right thing? Why are you walking all over a station to find a member of staff to sell you a ticket, or queuing up at your destination when others just hop on and off and get to where they're going quicker than you?

I am hardly the only one that gets frustrated. Now, I'm never going to say 'sod it' and stop doing the right thing, but I can fully understand why others do.