What is wrong with Britain's railways?

[67018]

Is that a reference to me and my initials

Yes. I couldn't work out why so many people were calling for the 'return of BR' until I realised that they weren't in favour of nationalisation, they just couldn't get enough of your posts!

 

[yorksrob]

There ain't enough of em !

 

[TheEdge]

The 1940s were a time of austerity... so when was the "golden age" if not now?

1920s and early to mid 1930s.

Whats wrong with the railways today?

1. Running what is essentially a utility as a private company.
2. Hilarious levels of under-investment.
3. Bus companies trying to be train companies.
4. Too many mid and high level managers are not proper railwaymen (or women). I'd like to imagine that if having actual proper railway experience on the coal face was a pre-requisite to being in railway management we may be in a far better situation.

 

[cjmillsnun]

1920s and early to mid 1930s.

Whats wrong with the railways today?

1. Running what is essentially a utility as a private company.

?? It's a transport network, not a utility. Is National Express a Utility, no - it's a transport company.

2. Hilarious levels of under-investment.

The amount of investment going into the railways is more than it has been in living memory.

3. Bus companies trying to be train companies.

Oh FFS this one?
Those bus companies (Stagecoach and First) actually do a reasonable job of running train operating companies.

My local TOC SWT has been Stagecoach from the start (it was one of the first franchises to be awarded), and has high standards. It runs more trains than BR did, has refurbished some trains (158/9s, 455s, 456s and its first privatisation stock, the 458s) to a high standard, leased some of the most reliable and comfortable multiple units (Siemens Desiros), and embarked on an alliance with Network rail to try and re-link the wheel rail interface that was severed by John Major's government.

EMT also have refurbished all of its trains to a high standard and run a punctual and efficient railway.

4. Too many mid and high level managers are not proper railwaymen (or women). I'd like to imagine that if having actual proper railway experience on the coal face was a pre-requisite to being in railway management we may be in a far better situation.

That could be said about many, many industries, and my experience (as someone at the coalface), was when we had a coalface guy promoted as a manager, he was good at understanding people and some day to day issues, but went to pieces when it came to strategy.
In all fairness BR had it right, it got manager grade graduates and then trained them to be railwaymen/women.

Chris Green was a product of that.

IMO what is wrong with Britain's railways?

They're neither public, nor private, but a hideously complicated lash up of the two, with the Government specifying almost everything, but hiding behind private companies. It should be one or the other.

A severed wheel rail interface - madness

 

[EM2]

Quite simply the fact that it's run as a profit-making organisation rather than a public service.

But when were they?
They were built with private money, for profit. When they were grouped, they were still in private ownership.
When they were nationalised? Maybe, but Government still expected them to make a profit.
The root cause, in my opinion, is that Government has always been too slow to react to things like growing car ownership and growing lorry freight, and then when they do, they go about it cack-handedly and spend a fortune that never brings the solutions that they desire (e.g. Modernisation Plan diesels that lasted less than ten years, huge marshalling yards that were never fully utilised).

 

[Bertie the bus]

Too little interest or effort when things go wrong or something slightly out of the ordinary happens. Things normally tick along OK but when there are problems there are far too many communications saying don’t bother trying to travel because you won’t get there or their first instinct is to get the yellow pages out and look up bus companies.

 

[muddythefish]

??

IMO what is wrong with Britain's railways?

They're neither public, nor private, but a hideously complicated lash up of the two, with the Government specifying almost everything, but hiding behind private companies. It should be one or the other.

A severed wheel rail interface - madness

Just about sums it up. The whole thing is a mess.

Disagree about the investment though. Money spent in recent years doesn't make up for the decades of under-investment from the 1970s onwards.

There's so much more still to do to make the network as a whole fit for the 21st century.

 

[WestCoast]

Bizarre ticketing and lack of integration between TOCs and with urban transport.

 

[scarby]

The rigidity of rolling stock provision and timetabling, running the same timetables and train sizes year-round with no recognition of big spikes in traffic such as to holiday resorts in summer.

When they manage to put on a couple of extra trains or slightly increase capacity you'd think they'd split the atom. 40 years ago they would have just gone down to the depot and whistled up some more stock.

 

[Robertj21a]

That's what sectorisation was all about, breaking down the parent organisation into manageable business units.

Did that also break down the pay, Terms and Conditions etc so that each sector could negotiate everything 'locally' ?

 

[NSEFAN]

Disagree about the investment though. Money spent in recent years doesn't make up for the decades of under-investment from the 1970s onwards.

There's so much more still to do to make the network as a whole fit for the 21st century.

That damage is slowly being undone, but there's neither the money nor the man power to undo every BR false economy overnight.

 

[Senex]

The root cause, in my opinion, is that Government has always been too slow to react to things like growing car ownership and growing lorry freight,...

Slow to react, as you say, but nevertheless wanting to interfere continually at every level, and, except for a very short period towards the end, never allowing the competent railway manager just to get on and run the business. Also, of course, after the fiasco of the Modernisation Plan never allowing sufficient investment money and never allowing a steady investment programme to be sustained.

 

[muddythefish]

That damage is slowly being undone, but there's neither the money nor the man power to undo every BR false economy overnight.

The money is there all right - the govt recently announced a £15bn road building programme for instance - but it needs political willpower and a change of thinking within the DfT.

 

[NSEFAN]

The money is there all right - the govt recently announced a £15bn road building programme for instance - but it needs political willpower and a change of thinking within the DfT.

It still takes time to fix the problems, though. I'll bet that that £15bn is not to be spent in one go, as there's simply not the work force to do the job. The fragmentation of our rail industry has led to the same problem, where a lot of knowledgeable people have left and taken their skills with them. Certain people like to whine about immigration, but fail to realise that we have let the "native" population become unable to do the jobs we need them to. That problem simply cannot be fixed overnight, but needs decades of sustained effort.

 

[NLC1072]

Whats wrong;

It's privatized and profits are skimmed off the top of franchises rather than reinvested.

New trains cost too much.

Too many rules built upon more rules, which some are then changed leaving the second set of rules not matching the first.

Ticketing is too complex, then it is "simplified", then they realise they needed the other tickets the got rid of as it left a hole gap to target in the market so reintroduce them gradually, then they're too complex so they're simplified... so on and so forth.

 

[Clip]

Is that a reference to me and my initials

You wish!!

But it was bang on post 10 so at least I got something right yesterday

 

[strowger]

This may seem like a naive question, but it is a genuine one. What are the main problem areas affecting the railways of this country?

There are 2 broad "problems"

1 - Costs completely out of control.

2 - Structure of industry is wrong.

The points are linked, in that costs are not restrained because the industry is fragmented.

Point 1 - lots of factors at work here. To pick a few out of the air - Roger Ford's well-chosen phrase "safety nazis and disability taliban"; the railways are held to far higher standards of safety (in terms of casualties per pax mile) than roads, the industry failed to lobby & control disabled-access-related costs because it was fragmented and too many players have short time horizons. Too many staff, not enough DOO, staff paid too much - especially in pensions.

Point 2 - TOCs+ROSCOs+Infrastructure model is crazy, embodies high costs, prevents the industry from realizing efficiencies and having effective lobbying & PR. Too many players incentivized to fight each other, too many players with time horizons too short for investment - or even for sorting out their operational issues. Lots of organisations exist for short-term political reasons; ROSCOs to take borrowing off the government balance sheet (economic insanity), TOCs to deflect blame for poor services from government.

 

[Clip]

not restrained because the industry is fragmented.

Point 1 - lots of factors at work here. To pick a few out of the air - Roger Ford's well-chosen phrase "safety nazis and disability taliban"; the railways are held to far higher standards of safety (in terms of casualties per pax mile) than roads, the industry failed to lobby & control disabled-access-related costs because it was fragmented and too many players have short time horizons. Too many staff, not enough DOO, staff paid too much - especially in pensions.
.

Roger Ford is wrong - Id prefer a safe railway than not and why shouldnt disabled passengers not enjoy the same level of accessibility than those who are not enjoy?

Well there we have it. This will run for 10 pages now. But you are quite wrong in that assumption of yours.

Out of interest what is your wage and what sector do you work in, for comparison of course?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Thoroughly agree. Speaking from a passenger's perspective, it can be frustrating waiting for safety checks and the like, but our safety record is proof of their importance. I wouldn't want anyone exposed to unnecessary risks just so we could move off a minute or two sooner.

As for wages and pensions, it's not the public's concern. I think most proponents of that concern are driven by jealousy. I admit I'm a little jealous.

An aside, if Roger Ford did seriously say "safety nazis and disability taliban", he's a tw@. Pardonnez mon français.

 

[plymothian]

I think it's obvious what is wrong with Britain's railways.

- They're in the UK, not Spain/France/Germany/Netherlands etc, where there are NEVER delays, or broken infrastructure or wrong type of snow etc
- They cost more than £1 to travel anyway
- In fact they make you pay for travel full stop
- And you have to buy before you get on the train
- They make you turn up at the station ages before departure, rather than being able to board exactly at the time stated in the timetable
- They employ people; surely everything should be automated by now?
- And they actually pay those people! With a pension as well! Golly.
- Things are always breaking down
- But they always try to fix them when people want to travel
- The trains are always overcrowded or not long enough
- There aren't any spare trains/carriages, bit if there are they cannot be pacers or voyagers or sprinters or pendolinos.
- They take too long to get anywhere
- But we don't want HS2 to provide more capacity or shorten journeys, or to miss out MY stop
- They never tell us what's going on
- They never put up posters that I didn't read, or make announcements that I couldn't hear because I wasn't listening, or read the website/twitter etc; why should I?
- They're not British Rail

(have I covered everything?)

 

[455driver]

(have I covered everything?)

You missed off over-paid, rude, jobsworth staff!

 

[londiscape]

I think it's obvious what is wrong with Britain's railways.

- They're in the UK, not Spain/France/Germany/Netherlands etc, where there are NEVER delays, or broken infrastructure or wrong type of snow etc
- They cost more than £1 to travel anyway
- In fact they make you pay for travel full stop
- And you have to buy before you get on the train
- They make you turn up at the station ages before departure, rather than being able to board exactly at the time stated in the timetable
- They employ people; surely everything should be automated by now?
- And they actually pay those people! With a pension as well! Golly.
- Things are always breaking down
- But they always try to fix them when people want to travel
- The trains are always overcrowded or not long enough
- There aren't any spare trains/carriages, bit if there are they cannot be pacers or voyagers or sprinters or pendolinos.
- They take too long to get anywhere
- But we don't want HS2 to provide more capacity or shorten journeys, or to miss out MY stop
- They never tell us what's going on
- They never put up posters that I didn't read, or make announcements that I couldn't hear because I wasn't listening, or read the website/twitter etc; why should I?
- They're not British Rail

(have I covered everything?)

You are 455driver in disguise and I claim my 5 pounds!

EDIT - dammit, beaten to it by the man himself!

 

[sarahj]

You are 455driver in disguise and I claim my 5 pounds!

EDIT - dammit, beaten to it by the man himself!

You missed:

Every seat should be a full leather recliner with both heated and cooling options with leg room that would put first class on a A380 to shame and each train should provide a full at seat service of anything I desire for £1
Each train should be fully steam cleaned at each station so the banana skin I leave on the seat is removed as soon as possible.
However, unless there at least 7 open ticket counters manned 24 hours a day at my local station (southease) offering each time I ask the full range of ticket options, including every split ticket possibility, then penalty fares should never be allowed. This transaction should take less than 30 seconds so I can arrive for the 17.30 train at 17.29.

 

[dysonsphere]

Too many laywers and accountants and not enought track workers/investment a pound paid to a laywer is a pound wasted.

 

[Busaholic]

Eversholt Rail is being sold to the Chinese as the next stage in their plan for world domination. Must dig out my copy of the Little Red Book from the 1970s.

 

[455driver]

You are 455driver in disguise and I claim my 5 pounds!

EDIT - dammit, beaten to it by the man himself!

Nice try!

 

[Bevan Price]

There are some good features, and some bad. The main problems are:
1. DfT
2. Treasury
Both the above are to blame for inadequate investment in the past, and insufficient numbers of trains to meet current passenger loadings.
3. Fiendishly complicated fares "system".
4. Deriving from 3, the assumption that everybody who has the wrong ticket, or can't buy a ticket (due to lack of sufficient staff in ticket office / or inadequate ticket machines) is a criminal trying to defraud the railway. (No - I am not defending those who deliberately try to avoid paying the correct fare.)
5. Fragmentation of the passenger network, often leading to a "couldn't care less" attitude about connections between different TOCs.
6. Passenger charters and compensation payments for late running, etc. That just leads to more administration costs, diverting money that could be more usefully spent on improving services. Also, it led to slower journeys due to addition of "charter time" to lessen the chances of late running.

In contrast, many front-line staff are decent, hard-working people, who do their best to provide a safe, reliable service. Unfortunately, some of them may get blamed for problems created by others, and inevitably there are a minority of obnoxious jobsworth types who should never be let loose near a consumer environment.

 

[The Ham]

Lack of common sense (I think that covers it)!

 

[sarahj]

There are some good features, and some bad. The main problems are:
1. DfT
2. Treasury
Both the above are to blame for inadequate investment in the past, and insufficient numbers of trains to meet current passenger loadings.
3. Fiendishly complicated fares "system".
4. Deriving from 3, the assumption that everybody who has the wrong ticket, or can't buy a ticket (due to lack of sufficient staff in ticket office / or inadequate ticket machines) is a criminal trying to defraud the railway. (No - I am not defending those who deliberately try to avoid paying the correct fare.)
5. Fragmentation of the passenger network, often leading to a "couldn't care less" attitude about connections between different TOCs.
6. Passenger charters and compensation payments for late running, etc. That just leads to more administration costs, diverting money that could be more usefully spent on improving services. Also, it led to slower journeys due to addition of "charter time" to lessen the chances of late running.

In contrast, many front-line staff are decent, hard-working people, who do their best to provide a safe, reliable service. Unfortunately, some of them may get blamed for problems created by others, and inevitably there are a minority of obnoxious jobsworth types who should never be let loose near a consumer environment.

I'm always interested in this phrase. I've been called a jobsworth for throwing folks out of first class, selling an upgrade when the person is on the wrong train for their ticket etc etc. What does it mean, someone who wont look the other way when your doing something naughty?

 

[DelayRepay]

.
However, unless there at least 7 open ticket counters manned 24 hours a day at my local station (southease) offering each time I ask the full range of ticket options, including every split ticket possibility, then penalty fares should never be allowed. This transaction should take less than 30 seconds so I can arrive for the 17.30 train at 17.29.

You forgot to mention Railcard discounts - which should be available even if the railcard has been left at home, expired or even never existed in the first place.

And loyalty points :roll: