What is wrong with Britain's railways?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

This may seem like a naive question, but it is a genuine one. What are the main problem areas affecting the railways of this country? I ask because it seems like there is plenty to be optimistic about - such as new trains, route re-openings and improvements (including electrification) and growing rail freight - yet inevitably some concerns/problems remain. Off the top of my head, several key ones are:

Overcrowding on certain routes/services
Continuing use of old and unsuitable trains (Pacers spring to mind)
Doubts about the construction of HS2

Of course, plenty of people will list hatred of Voyagers or impending retirement of HSTs as their main problem/concern, but I would be interested to hear the serious issues as well as the tongue-in-cheek ones...

 

[PHILIPE]

bureaucracy and dysfunction as a result of privatisation

 

[NicholasNCE]

Such negativity!

Compared to the rest of Europe, I would say the future of Britain's railways is definitely bright.
High frequency clock-face timetables, greatly renewed/refurbished rolling stock, one of the highest rates of stock use in Europe, fare integration despite privatisation, year on year passenger number growth, a good safety record, Crossrail...

Meanwhile in continental Europe, French rural branches and secondary lines are closing at an alarming rate, TGV passenger numbers are dropping and the network is becoming more Paris-centred than ever. In Italy, similar branch closures are occuring. In Germany, delays have become a chronical problem... Belgium and the Netherlands still haven't quite sorted out the Brussels-Amsterdam HS route (heard of the Fyra disaster?). Shall I go on?

No complacency, there definitely are problems that need resolving and the current system certainly is neither the simplest nor the most cost-effective but don't believe it isn't the case elsewhere.

 

[TDK]

Too many people wanting to travel to the same place

Infrastructure that was installed in the 19th century

not enough space on our little island

too many protestors and tree huggers

fragmented franchise system

too much micro management

too much government money being spent in the wrong areas (HS2)

and many many more

 

[cf111]

As someone living in Scotland, I have to say there's very little going wrong locally. Transport Scotland have run a tight ship with First and hopefully that continues with Abellio.

 

[Clip]

10-15 posts before a return to BR to solve everything

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just a few little problems:

1. Railway costs are too high (reflected in the fares)
2. Network Rail's debts are out of control (£34 billion and climbing)
3. Nobody really understands the money-go-round (where all the money goes)
4. Management model uncertainty (centralised/devolved, public/private)

Despite all this business is growing, so it's not all bad.
I don't think any of the political parties have much idea what to do for the better.
The problems are a lot deeper than "renationalisation will solve everything".
The next big issue is local control (of funds, rolling stock, services).
Against these kind of issues, it's not very important what colour your train is.

 

[JamesRowden]

Too many people using cars rather the train along some routes. This causes there to only be 1tph along these routes. This can cause journey times to be extended by 30 minutes due to poor connections.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Too many people using cars rather the train along some routes. This causes there to only be 1tph along these routes. This can cause journey times to be extended by 30 minutes due to poor connections.

Chicken and egg.
If travelling by rail on a particular route is poor (low frequencies, frequent missed connections) then there is no surprise people prefer the car. And that then has no chance of changing unless they see a significant improvement in the railway.

 

[PHILIPE]

Lets mention BR. I think if BR were to come back now that things would be a lot different in the light of experience.

 

[Saint66]

Lets mention BR. I think if BR were to come back now that things would be a lot different in the light of experience.

Probably worse....

 

[stockport1]

pacers

 

[RichmondCommu]

Too many people using cars rather the train along some routes. This causes there to only be 1tph along these routes. This can cause journey times to be extended by 30 minutes due to poor connections.

Two reasons for this. Taking the train can often be more expensive than driving, especially if there is more than one person travelling. Secondly the car will always offer more flexibility. Many of the costs of motoring are fixed which means you might as well use the car that you already own and of course the price of fuel is very cheap at the moment.

 

[Trog]

10-15 posts before a return to BR to solve everything

Its too late for that, you can not put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

 

[stockport1]

Too many people using cars rather the train along some routes. This causes there to only be 1tph along these routes. This can cause journey times to be extended by 30 minutes due to poor connections.

like the mid Cheshire line and the A556!

1tph and its a pacer meanwhile the A556/m56 corridor is creaking.

 

[EM2]

Massive government subsidies to operators (higher than ever before), yet also massive fares. Someone somewhere is pocketing shedloads of cash...

 

[Bald Rick]

10-15 posts before a return to BR to solve everything

Is that a reference to me and my initials

 

[Antman]

Two reasons for this. Taking the train can often be more expensive than driving, especially if there is more than one person travelling. Secondly the car will always offer more flexibility. Many of the costs of motoring are fixed which means you might as well use the car that you already own and of course the price of fuel is very cheap at the moment.

Two very good points, we had a family gathering in the west country last year, the cost of hiring a self drive minibus was a fraction of what the train fare would have been and far more flexibility and as you alluded to if you have a car there is very little incentive to leave it at home and use public transport.

 

[anti-pacer]

Probably nothing in a lot of places, but locally to me, poor rolling stock and the fact that they carry people who think it's acceptable to leave their crap on them.

I've come to the conclusion that Northerners don't do bins!

Oh I'm on one tonight!

 

[alexl92]

Quite simply the fact that it's run as a profit-making organisation rather than a public service.

 

[kermit]

Quite simply the fact that it's run as a profit-making organisation rather than a public service.

Just hit an imaginary "like" button there....

 

[plastictaffy]

Too many chiefs and not enough indians.
Too many people that have never done a job on the operating side of the railway trying to manage something they have no idea about!!
Not enough TOC to TOC communication.
Not enough communication from the ivory towers down to those of us on the coalface.
Not enough communication from Nitwit Rail down to the TOC's.
Too many people on the coalface trying to climb up the greasy pole of management.
Too much of the "jobs for the boys" culture - certainly within my TOC.

 

[Robertj21a]

Lets mention BR. I think if BR were to come back now that things would be a lot different in the light of experience.

Only better for a brief honeymoon period - then steadily downhill, as tends to happen with many organisations that are simply too big to manage effectively.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Only better for a brief honeymoon period - then steadily downhill, as tends to happen with many organisations that are simply too big to manage effectively.

That's what sectorisation was all about, breaking down the parent organisation into manageable business units.

 

[Antman]

Probably nothing in a lot of places, but locally to me, poor rolling stock and the fact that they carry people who think it's acceptable to leave their crap on them.

I've come to the conclusion that Northerners don't do bins!

Oh I'm on one tonight!

Londoners don't do bins either:cry:

 

[anti-pacer]

Londoners don't do bins either:cry:

Are your trains full of lazy peoples litter too at the end of their journeys?

 

[Hadders]

To get back on topic I think we generally have an excellent railway.

Granted it's not always cheap, but frequency and speed are pretty decent.

Compare and contrast to France which is often held up a a beacon of excellence and off the TGV network it's a completely different picture.

 

[Rapidash]

Only peeve I have (other than blahpacersblahblahblah) is the lack of broader interconnectivity with buses and the like. The sheer tedium of pulling into Paignton and seeing a 12 leave just as you get out the front door of the station is rather twitch inducing after the 50th time. Sure the damn things are every 15 mins, but after a long day that feels like aaagggggess

But yeah, apart from that, its mostly good I suppose. For an alleged backwater hinterland we have a good service down here, and its only going to improve.

 

[fairysdad]

Are your trains full of lazy peoples litter too at the end of their journeys?

I currently only travel to London on an occasional basis, but yes. And it's not just passengers: I was once at Paddington station, and having had a Burger King meal - was young and foolish back then - was then looking for somewhere to put the litter. Not finding anything that even resembled a bin (that's a bit unfair: I did see the wheelie bins on the walk up to the H&C line, but they were locked) I asked a member of station staff (or, at least, a member of NR staff) where I could put my rubbish. He then told me to just put it on the floor and somebody else would pick it up... :roll:

That's what sectorisation was all about, breaking down the parent organisation into manageable business units.

I think I said this in a previous post on this subject, but I'm against nationalisation in its fullest sense. But, what I would like to see is a return to something like the Big Four, possibly run by government, possibly (and more realistically if you can say that to a pie-in-the-sky idea by a nobody) by private companies akin to London Overground. Not necessarily sectorisation as it was in the dying days of BR with different areas for different types of traffic, but different regions.

Not necessarily the Big Four as it was back in the day, but something similar - eg, Scotland and Wales having their own region (I understand that Wales was mostly under the Western region). Admittedly, this is similar to how we have it now, but instead of the smaller franchises, having larger ones, plus Cross-Country. Something like:

• Western - pretty much the FGW franchise as is, but including the old LSWR Exeter - Waterloo line, and without the Southampton/Portsmouth/Brighton lines
• Southern - Southern, Southeastern, and South West Trains lines (inc. Isle of Wight) (basically Network SouthEast)
• West Midlands - current LM services and Chiltern services
• East Midlands - current EMT operation plus Anglia services
• Northern - North of Liverpool/Manchester/Sheffield/Hull to the Scotish border
• Scotland - Scotrail
• Wales - Services in Wales
• Cross Country - Intercity services including current XC (Voyager) services, West and East Coast, and the FGW services towards Brighton; maybe the sleeper services to Penzance and to Scotland
• Freight
• London - Overground, Crossrail, Thameslink (though that could be a Southern) plus Underground, Tramlink and DLR (basically all current TfL managed railways)

Okay, this probably isn't a great idea, it's only just been put pen to paper (as it were), and no doubt many here will pick more holes into it than a jumper knitted with huge knitting needles. And, I am fully aware that it will never happen, not in a blue moon! Also, my knowledge of TOCs other than FGW and SWT aren't that good, so there may be some errors there too...

There's also no saying that services will be completely restricted to their areas, particularly near the edge of the areas. It's kind of just a rough idea I had in a fleeting moment.

 

[tbtc]

Such negativity!

Compared to the rest of Europe, I would say the future of Britain's railways is definitely bright.
High frequency clock-face timetables, greatly renewed/refurbished rolling stock, one of the highest rates of stock use in Europe, fare integration despite privatisation, year on year passenger number growth, a good safety record, Crossrail...

Meanwhile in continental Europe, French rural branches and secondary lines are closing at an alarming rate, TGV passenger numbers are dropping and the network is becoming more Paris-centred than ever. In Italy, similar branch closures are occuring. In Germany, delays have become a chronical problem... Belgium and the Netherlands still haven't quite sorted out the Brussels-Amsterdam HS route (heard of the Fyra disaster?). Shall I go on?

No complacency, there definitely are problems that need resolving and the current system certainly is neither the simplest nor the most cost-effective but don't believe it isn't the case elsewhere.

I agree - you could easily argue that we are in a "golden period" - the railway has never had so many passengers (per km of track), the railway has never been as safe (passenger deaths etc), the railway has never had such commitment to longer term investment (HS2 etc), the railway has never been so accessible to so many people...

...yet the glass is permanently "half empty" for most enthusiasts - they'll complain about anything - the most minor grievances get aired on this Forum (or we see complaints that too much money is being spent on the wrong areas of the country!).

If this isn't a "golden period" (which I know some people will argue about) then I don't know when was.

The 1990s were a time of cost cutting (that led to infrastructure problems that led to crashes).

The 1980s were a time of Pacers, closure of Woodhead (and almost S&C) and Serpell.

The 1970s saw more cuts and industrial action.

The 1960s were a time of Beeching and mass closures.

The 1950s were a time of inefficiencies/ barmy management (still building steam despite technology having moved on).

The 1940s were a time of austerity... so when was the "golden age" if not now?

Every decade has had it's problems - this decade is probably about as good as it's got (but we'll complain about things like lack of bins and miss the bigger picture).

We could do with more long term strategy, but we've got agreement on what'll happen in twenty years time (HS2) which is "longer term" than any previous investments I can remember.

The potential for breakdown between Central Government (Df), infrastructure (Network Rail) and local/provincial government (Rail North, WAG etc) concerns me, but this needs to be seen against the CP5 commitments (which are more generous than any equivalent period of investment in my lifetime)

10-15 posts before a return to BR to solve everything

It's traditional

Always amusing to see enthusiasts moan about Government inefficiencies, moan about "DafT" (tee hee hee :roll, moan about interfering civil servants and yet decide that the answer is nationalisation!

Would you want the railways under the yoke of the same austerity that the Civil Service/ Local Government etc are suffering under?

1. Railway costs are too high (reflected in the fares)

Massive government subsidies to operators (higher than ever before), yet also massive fares. Someone somewhere is pocketing shedloads of cash...

This is a tricky one.

Most/all railway costs have gone up by more than the rate of inflation (fuel, infrastructure, staff wages, insurance etc), and I don't think that any "British Rail" would be able to reduce those (other than staff wages, which may end up seeing 1% wage rises and closing the final salary pension scheme in line with Civil Service etc) - so I don't think things would be *that* much cheaper under any "BR".

I certainly agree that costs are higher than I'd like, of course! I just don't see an easy way to cut them (even if you could run the railway as efficiently as today without taking any shareholder profits, and scrapped half the "middle management" then it'd probably only be a few pence difference to the average ticket and be dwarfed by the increases in insurance/ infrastructure/ fuel costs)