Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[notadriver]

They are used on the Scottish highland Mainline between Perth and Inverness so I'm sure they can handle all gradients ?

 

[northwichcat]

Not sure how a 170 would do on the climbs out of Bradford and into Halifax.

Have they not been used via Halifax before? TPE tend to use 170s on overnight North/South TPE services and some overnight services are sent via Wakefield or Halifax for crew knowledge retention purposes.

 

[Anvil1984]

Have they not been used via Halifax before? TPE tend to use 170s on overnight North/South TPE services and some overnight services are sent via Wakefield or Halifax for crew knowledge retention purposes.

I've hardly ever seen a 170 run on a Overnight TPE North service and TPE no longer sign via Bradford or Halifax. They just bypass going through Brighouse it if using the Calder Valley

 

[matchmaker]

Not sure how a 170 would do on the climbs out of Bradford and into Halifax.

They cope with the 1 in 42 out of Queen Street daily - many times!

 

[WatcherZero]

I would say that 170s would be welcomed at Northern for the likes of York Blackpool, Sheffield Leeds semi fasts and Calder Valley? No good for the s and C though given 170s and hills arnt always good befellows. This shuffling of the pack could see Northern 158s with Cummins engines going north and 170s south?

They would be welcome but since the ones Chiltern snatched up the Dft was already secretly planning to give to another southern toc they may ultimately be second in line.

 

[Class172]

Not sure how a 170 would do on the climbs out of Bradford and into Halifax.

They cope with the 1 in 42 out of Queen Street daily - many times!

They also cope with the climb up the Lickey Incline may times a day.

 

[Chrisgr31]

As mentioned elsewhere they only really need the 4 units.

It's intended for the 6 car and 8 car peak diagrams to both be 10 car, and you would expect the 2 car diagram to become 3 or 4, and the 6 car off peak - 16.08 + 19.08 LBG to Uck) diagram to become 8, so that's an increase of 9 coaches approx.

And in theory the 6 car peak diagram may only become an 8 car.

The Ashford line obviously needs more stock but there is no mention of that.

Not sure I ever agreed with the sums on the units required. The franchise requirement is for 3 of the peak hour services to London to be 10, and 2 of the return (not sure how the other passengers get home but never mind)!

Anyway at present from Uckfield you have:-

05:18 4 carriages plenty of space
05:42 2 carriages standing from Crowborough/Eridge
06:30 6 carriages standing from Crowborough/Eridge
07:08 8 carriages standing from Edenbridge
07:34 6 carriages (not sure on loading rarely catch it)
08:04 4 carriages (the 5:18 making its 2nd journey)
08:34 2 carriages (the 05:42 making its 2nd journey)

The reality is that a number of passengers are on the 7.08 as they caanot get seats on the earlier ones. You need at least 14 carriages to make 3 of those trains 10 carriages. However in addition you would want to lengthen the 2 carriage train to at least 4 and probably 6 or 8. My guess is that they will use the 1st 12 to make the trains up tp 8 carriages. They might also of course decide to keep 1 in the depot as a spare as at present I believe the spare is often out making the services up.

Maybe once they get all the units they will use some to add to the Marshlink service, might not be a reqirement but I guess it would win friends and influence people.

 

[northwichcat]

This shuffling of the pack could see Northern 158s with Cummins engines going north and 170s south?

The idea in the winning Abellio Scotrail bid is they will significantly reduce the number of DMUs they operate. The DMUs will be replaced using a combination of cascaded 321s, new Hitachi EMUs and cascaded HSTs. Of course if passenger numbers rise more than expected Scotrail may need to revise the plans but at the moment there aren't plans for Sprinters to be cascaded to Scotland as replacement for Turbostars.

 

[Altnabreac]

The idea in the winning Abellio Scotrail bid is they will significantly reduce the number of DMUs they operate. The DMUs will be replaced using a combination of cascaded 321s, new Hitachi EMUs and cascaded HSTs. Of course if passenger numbers rise more than expected Scotrail may need to revise the plans but at the moment there aren't plans for Sprinters to be cascaded to Scotland as replacement for Turbostars.

Everyone knows that. The point we were discussing was whether 158s could cover all the routes not planned to be served by EMUs, HSTs and 156s.

These are:
Borders,
Far North,
Kyle,
West Highland,
Fife Circle
Perth - Edinburgh
Dundee - Edinburgh Semi Fasts.

We know the first 4 will definitely be 158s refurbished to "Scenic Stock" standards.

The question is are there enough 158s currently with Scotrail to serve Fife Circle, Perth and Dundee and thus send all the 170s off lease?

If not quite enough it might make sense for Abellio to swap a few 170s for some 158s from down south so they only need to operate 2 DMU classes. This would also reduce the number of different stock refurbishments required.

 

[northwichcat]

Everyone knows that.
...
If not quite enough it might make sense for Abellio to swap a few 170s for some 158s from down south so they only need to operate 2 DMU classes. This would also reduce the number of different stock refurbishments required.

Well analysis other posters have done of the figures provided by Abellio gives 185 carriages currently with Scotrail being released.

185 carriages could be 59 x 3 car 170s plus 8 more carriages.

Abellio make no mention of using 170s in their brochure and 9 will be no longer leased by Scotrail from next year, so losing all the 170s with no replacement DMUs is a logical conclusion.

As for the 8 more carriages - it wouldn't seem to make sense for Scotrail to release 2 x 4 car EMUs when they have secured a set of 321s so 4 Sprinters would seem the most likely option. With rumours of the 8 x 158s that were originally intended for Northern (which Scotrail haven't refurbished) going to TPE - maybe Scotrail may lose 8 x 158s but gain 4 x 156s?

 

[physics34]

Not sure I ever agreed with the sums on the units required. The franchise requirement is for 3 of the peak hour services to London to be 10, and 2 of the return (not sure how the other passengers get home but never mind)!

Anyway at present from Uckfield you have:-

05:18 4 carriages plenty of space
05:42 2 carriages standing from Crowborough/Eridge
06:30 6 carriages standing from Crowborough/Eridge
07:08 8 carriages standing from Edenbridge
07:34 6 carriages (not sure on loading rarely catch it)
08:04 4 carriages (the 5:18 making its 2nd journey)
08:34 2 carriages (the 05:42 making its 2nd journey)

The reality is that a number of passengers are on the 7.08 as they caanot get seats on the earlier ones. You need at least 14 carriages to make 3 of those trains 10 carriages. However in addition you would want to lengthen the 2 carriage train to at least 4 and probably 6 or 8. My guess is that they will use the 1st 12 to make the trains up tp 8 carriages. They might also of course decide to keep 1 in the depot as a spare as at present I believe the spare is often out making the services up.

Maybe once they get all the units they will use some to add to the Marshlink service, might not be a reqirement but I guess it would win friends and influence people.

Agree with you mate, its just that there has been nothing official about more than 4 units. The platform extension work is likely to start soon.

 

[Altnabreac]

Yes, post #144 gave the public confirmation:

Well analysis other posters have done of the figures provided by Abellio gives 185 carriages currently with Scotrail being released.

185 carriages could be 59 x 3 car 170s plus 8 more carriages.

Abellio make no mention of using 170s in their brochure and 9 will be no longer leased by Scotrail from next year, so losing all the 170s with no replacement DMUs is a logical conclusion.

As for the 8 more carriages - it wouldn't seem to make sense for Scotrail to release 2 x 4 car EMUs when they have secured a set of 321s so 4 Sprinters would seem the most likely option. With rumours of the 8 x 158s that were originally intended for Northern (which Scotrail haven't refurbished) going to TPE - maybe Scotrail may lose 8 x 158s but gain 4 x 156s?

I agree it will only be DMUs being released by Scotrail. Analysis of numbers does suggest releasing lots by the end of the Franchise but I still don't think there are enough 158s for all those services.

Once EGIP is done the other lines to be electrified - Shotts, EK etc are freeing up 156s while Borders, Dundee and Perth need the faster top speeds of 158s.

I guess it's possible that Fife Circle could be run with 156s?

 

[northwichcat]

but I still don't think there are enough 158s for all those services.

It's been reported that the National Express bid required a lower subsidy but Transport Scotland wanted the best bid not the cheapest bid so I'm sure they will have made sure the numbers provided by Abellio added up. Apparently Scotrail DMUs are the least intensively used DMUs in Britain so it's possible with revised diagramming that less units can cover the same number of services without any capacity reduction.

 

[Chris125]

Everyone knows that. The point we were discussing was whether 158s could cover all the routes not planned to be served by EMUs, HSTs and 156s.

Someone presumably well connected posted the following info on RMweb, which suggests there are:

The Class 156 units will be the first to be overhauled and completed by December 2017
Of the current fleet of 48, 32 will be overhauled, 16 will be refreshed and then returned to RoSCo (on completion of electrification)

The Class 158 units will be overhauled, all to meet the same specification as the current Inverness based units (14F and 110S) and completed by December 2017
Of the current fleet of 48, 15 will be overhauled, 8 will be returned to RoSCo (on completion of electrification)

The Class 170 units will be returned to RoSCo on completion of electrification

Chris

 

[northwichcat]

Someone presumably well connected posted the following info on RMweb, which suggests there are:

The Class 156 units will be the first to be overhauled and completed by December 2017
Of the current fleet of 48, 32 will be overhauled, 16 will be refreshed and then returned to RoSCo (on completion of electrification)

The Class 158 units will be overhauled, all to meet the same specification as the current Inverness based units (14F and 110S) and completed by December 2017
Of the current fleet of 48, 15 will be overhauled, 8 will be returned to RoSCo (on completion of electrification)

The Class 170 units will be returned to RoSCo on completion of electrification

Chris

There's an option for an add-on order for 40 additional EMU carriages, so I'm guessing this person made the presumption that would go ahead when saying Scotrail would return 16 x 156s and 8 x 158s.

 

[Altnabreac]

Someone presumably well connected posted the following info on RMweb, which suggests there are:

The Class 156 units will be the first to be overhauled and completed by December 2017
Of the current fleet of 48, 32 will be overhauled, 16 will be refreshed and then returned to RoSCo (on completion of electrification)

The Class 158 units will be overhauled, all to meet the same specification as the current Inverness based units (14F and 110S) and completed by December 2017
Of the current fleet of 48, 15 will be overhauled, 8 will be returned to RoSCo (on completion of electrification)

The Class 170 units will be returned to RoSCo on completion of electrification

Chris

That's really interesting stuff and makes a lot of sense. The only question is what do they mean by "completion of electrification".

From the numbers it can't be just EGIP but does it mean post Shotts in 2019, EK in 2020 or Fife Circle in early 2020s? That would likely be the last electrification in the Franchise period.

32 156s is certainly more than you need for just Dumfries, Kilmarnock and Stranraer so I wonder if the plan is for 156s on Fife Circle and all these numbers are based on around 2020 post Shotts/EK/Barrhead/Maryhill electrification.

 

[Starmill]

I'm very confused about this whole thing. Why have 170s up for grabs ended up being signed off for by Southern and not plugging the 'gap' on TPE as their stock got poached?

 

[WatcherZero]

I'm very confused about this whole thing. Why have 170s up for grabs ended up being signed off for by Southern and not plugging the 'gap' on TPE as their stock got poached?

Its emerged recently, and even more damaging for government mismanagement, that they had already secretly promised the TPE 170's to Southern before Chiltern poached them. Presumably why they didn't attempt to block the move or put up much of a fight.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm very confused about this whole thing. Why have 170s up for grabs ended up being signed off for by Southern and not plugging the 'gap' on TPE as their stock got poached?

The practical answer is that Southern (Govia), like Chiltern, has a long franchise and FTPE hasn't.
The Roscos will go for the best deal for them.

 

[northwichcat]

The practical answer is that Southern (Govia), like Chiltern, has a long franchise and FTPE hasn't.
The Roscos will go for the best deal for them.

If TPE had a long term franchise they would have probably signed a lease for the 170/3s ending in December 2018 which was when Network Rail proposed North TPE electrification would be complete. However, that would have still allowed Chiltern/Southern to agree a lease for them starting in December 2018 and if, as expected, North TPE electrification won't be done by then the same problem would have occurred, although there would have been more time to resolve it.

 

[158722]

Having busied myself for an hour at 'work' - there are 23 diagrams required to cover Glasgow Central to Stranraer, Carlisle, Newcastle (9 units) , Kilmarnock, Barrhead, East Kilbride (8 units) and Edinburgh via Shotts (6 units). Several turns are pairs of units at peak times, plus at least one triple set to EK, so it looks like something like 30-32 units are required to cover, with a couple of units used only at peak times or inter-worked with West Highland diagrams.

32x 156s would seem tight, so perhaps Shotts might continue to see 158s or Abellio's plans assume that Shotts will be electrified?

Now, what can 40 158s cover?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The West Highland currently requires 6 diagrams, as do the Far North and Kyle. Edinburgh to Perth and semi-fasts to Dundee, plus the few extra Glasgow-Perth, Dundee/Arbroath and Glasgow-Kirkcaldy seem to require 12 diagrams, but these are well interworked with other services, whilst the Fife circle has a further 7. The Borders line will require a minimum of 4 diagrams to run the expected 30min frequency at peak times. That gives a total of 35 diagrams.

That total of 35 doesn't include any pairs (several of which operate to Fife at peak times, along with at least one triple 158 set) or replacement of the loco hauled set and currently, many of these workings are 3 or 6-car 170s, so using just 158s would either need more units to run as 4 or 6 car sets or a reduction from 3 to 2 on some services.

Conclusion? 15 'scenic' 158s to cover the Far North and West Highland looks spot on, but 25 units to cover the other services looks adventurous, especially as the 156 fleet has no slack either, as noted. Perhaps some HSTs to cover Dundee and Perth turns? I've also assumed that Anniesland will get wired or be covered by 158s in between West Highland/Perth/Dundee turns.

 

[northwichcat]

Conclusion? 15 'scenic' 158s to cover the Far North and West Highland looks spot on, but 25 units to cover the other services looks adventurous, especially as the 156 fleet has no slack either, as noted. Perhaps some HSTs to cover Dundee and Perth turns? I've also assumed that Anniesland will get wired or be covered by 158s in between West Highland/Perth/Dundee turns.

Expanding on what I said earlier in the thread.

Scotrail will get:
7 x 4 car 321s
46 x 3 car Hitachi AT200 trains
24 x 4 car Hitachi AT200 trains

However, there is also the option to add on another 10 x 4 car Hitachi AT200 trains if the option to extend the franchise to 2025 is undertaken. It's possible that up to 20 of the Sprinters will only be released if those 10 EMUs are delivered.

 

[158722]

Expanding on what I said earlier in the thread.

Scotrail will get:
7 x 4 car 321s
46 x 3 car Hitachi AT200 trains
24 x 4 car Hitachi AT200 trains

However, there is also the option to add on another 10 x 4 car Hitachi AT200 trains if the option to extend the franchise to 2025 is undertaken. It's possible that up to 20 of the Sprinters will only be released if those 10 EMUs are delivered.

Which sort of backs up the line that something other than just E&G/Dunblane/Alloa has to be wired to allow them to operate with just the 156s & 158s mentioned.

Any note of where the 321s are coming from/destined for and when as yet?

 

[Chris125]

32x 156s would seem tight, so perhaps Shotts might continue to see 158s or Abellio's plans assume that Shotts will be electrified?

I don't see why they wouldn't assume Shotts is being electrified, IIRC it's part part of the same programme of CP5 works as Dunblane/Alloa.

Chris

 

[Altnabreac]

I don't see why they wouldn't they assume Shotts is being electrified, IIRC it's part part of the same programme of CP5 works as Dunblane/Alloa.

Chris

Indeed Shotts electrification is confirmed and has a December 2019 completion date. Civils work starts on bridges next year.

I suspect the EMUs needed for Shotts will be included in the main Hitachi order or covered by the 321s.

The optional 40 carriages will be for the lines planned for electrification after the Franchise break decision which are not necessarily 100% confirmed yet. This will be the remaining DMU operated Glasgow suburban routes:
Maryhill,
East Kilbride,
Barrhead,
Kilmarnock.

As I said all these free up 156s not 158s so it may be that some 156s will be needed on the Fife Circle.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The West Highland currently requires 6 diagrams.

Diagrams, yes, but more than six units; each train off Queen Street for the West Highland is two units in winter and three units in summer.

 

[northwichcat]

Any note of where the 321s are coming from/destined for and when as yet?

Modern Railways said it could be the LM 321s but Tony Miles later said the only reason for printing that is it was logical (as LM have 7 x 321s) and they had a publishing deadline and hadn't received information on a definite source. More reason publications have said it will be 7 of the 321s currently used on Great Northern services.

 

[158722]

Modern Railways said it could be the LM 321s but Tony Miles later said the only reason for printing that is it was logical (as LM have 7 x 321s) and they had a publishing deadline and hadn't received information on a definite source. More reason publications have said it will be 7 of the 321s currently used on Great Northern services.

Indeed, that was the last reported position on the subject - no updates?

 

[paul1609]

The practical answer is that Southern (Govia), like Chiltern, has a long franchise and FTPE hasn't.
The Roscos will go for the best deal for them.

Isn't the reality that Southern are a premium paying franchise and that the stock will make more money on the Uckfield line that the heavily subsidised TPE routes?

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't the reality that Southern are a premium paying franchise and that the stock will make more money on the Uckfield line that the heavily subsidised TPE routes?

They'll be on a management contract by the time any more 170s arrive though...