Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[Aictos]

Pardon for asking the obvious but what needs to be done apart from changing the couplers and updating the PIS etc with Southern material before Southern put them into passenger service?

 

[87015]

Pardon for asking the obvious but what needs to be done apart from changing the couplers and updating the PIS etc with Southern material before Southern put them into passenger service?

As its Govia might not even bother with the CIS just leave it dumb and unloaded like the 319s...

 

[physics34]

Pardon for asking the obvious but what needs to be done apart from changing the couplers and updating the PIS etc with Southern material before Southern put them into passenger service?

Re-liveried or vinyled, Mini buffet removal and changing to a southern decor id presume.

Technically there may be other alterations needed too for them to work with 171s.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Re-liveried or vinyled, Mini buffet removal and changing to a southern decor id presume.

Technically there may be other alterations needed too for them to work with 171s.

How much space does the mini buffet take up (how many seats could fit in in the place of it)?

 

[170401]

All four units still in daily operation. 393 was on fifes today.

How much space does the mini buffet take up (how many seats could fit in in the place of it)?

There are no mini buffets in the sets that are going to Southern.

170393-6 are not going off lease. The sets that are going off lease (and transferring to Southern) are 170416-424. 4 sets from that batch will transfer in the spring with the remainder going when EGIP is complete.

 

[Scotrail84]

There are no mini buffets in the sets that are going to Southern.

170393-6 are not going off lease. The sets that are going off lease (and transferring to Southern) are 170416-424. 4 sets from that batch will transfer in the spring with the remainder going when EGIP is complete.

Well that's completely different to what I've been told by folk who work at Haymaket TMD.

 

[170401]

Well that's completely different to what I've been told by folk who work at Haymaket TMD.

I'd seriously consider the quality of your sources then, their counterparts at Eastfield are running about telling everyone that'll listen that Cadder yard is currently being rebuilt to accommodate AT200 stock because ED can't be electrified and will close post EGIP. The actual truth is that it's being rebuilt as the main base for the EGIP electrification works.

Their's so much rubbish getting thrown about the bothies just now it's becoming almost laughable at what people are listening to and believing!

It's well documented elsewhere (in this thread possibly but I can't find it right now) that the 170's going off lease are owned by Eversholt. The only 170's owned by Eversholt anywhere are 170416-424, all others are owned by Porterbrook. All 9 go off lease at the change of franchise, transferring to Southern. Southern will immediately take delivery of 4 of them with 5 being subleased back to Scotrail until EMU's start running between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The only reason folk at Haymarket are saying 393-6 are leaving is because of the coincidence that there are 4 of them and 4 units are initially leaving, not a very intelligent conclusion given there is nothing based in fact, only hearsay and bothy talk.

 

[Steve childs]

Hi 170401. Yeh the stories flying about are so scare mongering its laughable. The truth with the Scotrail depots (as you know) are at full capacity for maintenance. Where I am we are really struggling to meet the exam deadlines, but the guys work hard. The story tellers should be in the office with 6 of the belt see how much more they will put round, lol Have a nice xmas

 

[Class 170101]

I would be very surprised if 418 left Scotrail as it has been vinyled into Saltaire blue as noted by Todays Railways December issue. It is apparently also the only one of forementioned in this livery.

 

[Aictos]

I would be very surprised if 418 left Scotrail as it has been vinyled into Saltaire blue as noted by Todays Railways December issue. It is apparently also the only one of forementioned in this livery.

That doesn't mean anything, it could be one of the 5 that Southern will be subleasing back to Scotrail hence makes economic sense to put the Saltire livery on it as it might not leave until 2016 with the 5 that will be subleased to Scotrail unlike the other 4 in the batch leaving in 2015.

 

[170401]

I would be very surprised if 418 left Scotrail as it has been vinyled into Saltaire blue as noted by Todays Railways December issue. It is apparently also the only one of forementioned in this livery.

170418 was revinyled as part of the Wifi launch 2 years ago. It's current livery will be irrelevant to the leasing companies, TOCs and their contracts.

Edited to add: I would imagine the decision on which 4 go first would be based on the heaviest need for repair/refurbishment, mileage and engine hours.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Edited to add: I would imagine the decision on which 4 go first would be based on the heaviest need for repair/refurbishment, mileage and engine hours.

As a matter of interest who decides that? Presumably Scotrail will want to keep the ones with the lowest need for repair/refurbishment, mileage and engine hours and Govia/Southern will also want the same units!

Are trains like buildings were you have to return them in the same condition you got them? ie generally professionally cleaned, well maintained, serviced, no outstanding repairs etc, or do they come ogg the last job and go straight back to the lease company?

 

[northwichcat]

As a matter of interest who decides that? Presumably Scotrail will want to keep the ones with the lowest need for repair/refurbishment, mileage and engine hours and Govia/Southern will also want the same units!

Depends on what agreements are in place.

If Govia have signed a lease for the Eversholt 170s and are subleasing some back to Scotrail (as rumoured) then Govia will be in control of which units they take. If Govia are planning to take all 9 eventually they might even chose to take the worse ones first as they're going to have to do work to them all at one point or another.

 

[Wolfie]

As a matter of interest who decides that? Presumably Scotrail will want to keep the ones with the lowest need for repair/refurbishment, mileage and engine hours and Govia/Southern will also want the same units!

Are trains like buildings were you have to return them in the same condition you got them? ie generally professionally cleaned, well maintained, serviced, no outstanding repairs etc, or do they come ogg the last job and go straight back to the lease company?

More the former. There were, for example, strong rumours of heavy financial penalties having been levied on Northern for the state they returned 180s in.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Appologies if already covered but I wasnt aware we had the ammount of fleat slack at present to let 4 go? What if anything will be changed, shortened, scrapped etc to allow for this?

 

[swt_passenger]

Appologies if already covered but I wasnt aware we had the ammount of fleat slack at present to let 4 go? What if anything will be changed, shortened, scrapped etc to allow for this?

Electrification releases the DMUs, basically. I think there's more detail of specific routes (Whifflet?) earlier in the thread.

 

[170401]

The Paisley Canal, Whifflet and Cumbernauld electrification schemes have all released additional slack in the fleet.

What's not clear yet is if the rumours of the additional 8 class 158's moving South is happening or not. Not seen anything official on this

 

[edwin_m]

Post #337 suggests they will be displaced by Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification.

 

[170401]

Hehe fair point Edwin although their's a difference between commenting on rumour and stating them as fact

The additional 8 staying for the time being does tie in with everything else that's going on though.

 

[Starmill]

The Paisley Canal, Whifflet and Cumbernauld electrification schemes have all released additional slack in the fleet.

What's not clear yet is if the rumours of the additional 8 class 158's moving South is happening or not. Not seen anything official on this

Further use of the Locomotive Hauled train is also a potential option, or a second diagram.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Makes sense Re addi ional loco hauled turns etc, I was purely wondering as EGEP is late and wasnt sure how much slack the other 2 projects created in the DMU Fleat. Would be nice to see the 158s eventually head to Northern or EMT too.

 

[northwichcat]

Makes sense Re addi ional loco hauled turns etc, I was purely wondering as EGEP is late and wasnt sure how much slack the other 2 projects created in the DMU Fleat. Would be nice to see the 158s eventually head to Northern or EMT too.

Abellio have plans to keep most of the 156s and 158s at Scotrail but their plans seem to suggest once they get the HSTs currently with FGW they will release the Porterbrook 170s (which are the 50 which Southern haven't signed a lease for.)

 

[physics34]

Not doubting what is being said here, but where has the info about Southern leasing more than 4 units come from, as Southern themselves have said just the 4. No mention of any more.

 

[Altnabreac]

Abellio have plans to keep most of the 156s and 158s at Scotrail but their plans seem to suggest once they get the HSTs currently with FGW they will release the Porterbrook 170s (which are the 50 which Southern haven't signed a lease for.)

I'm still not entirely convinced Scotrail have enough 158s to run Fife Circle, Borders, Far North, Kyle, West Highland, Stranraer, Perth - Edinburgh and the Dundee - Edinburgh Semi Fasts.

I'd like to see a calculation of how many vehicles you need to cover all those turns and I think it will exceed the 158s available.

Maybe some of the 170s could be swapped for additional 158s to reduce the number of DMU types in use?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Not doubting what is being said here, but where has the info about Southern leasing more than 4 units come from, as Southern themselves have said just the 4. No mention of any more.

Not sure, but Southern need more than 4 eventually. At the moment 4 will enable them to increase the length of the peak services to 8 cars, but the platforms are due to be extended to 10 cars in the next 12/24 months. So they'll need more. Would seem better to take a single batch from one ROSCO at once and sub-lease some back rather than have to look for more in a little while. However I do appreciate that this is the railway so doing the obvious thing is unlikely!

Incidentally will it make a difference to Southern having most of its 171's from Porterbrook and a small number from Eversholt (assuming the new ones are reclassed)

 

[physics34]

Not sure, but Southern need more than 4 eventually. At the moment 4 will enable them to increase the length of the peak services to 8 cars, but the platforms are due to be extended to 10 cars in the next 12/24 months. So they'll need more. Would seem better to take a single batch from one ROSCO at once and sub-lease some back rather than have to look for more in a little while. However I do appreciate that this is the railway so doing the obvious thing is unlikely!

Incidentally will it make a difference to Southern having most of its 171's from Porterbrook and a small number from Eversholt (assuming the new ones are reclassed)

As mentioned elsewhere they only really need the 4 units.

It's intended for the 6 car and 8 car peak diagrams to both be 10 car, and you would expect the 2 car diagram to become 3 or 4, and the 6 car off peak - 16.08 + 19.08 LBG to Uck) diagram to become 8, so that's an increase of 9 coaches approx.

And in theory the 6 car peak diagram may only become an 8 car.

The Ashford line obviously needs more stock but there is no mention of that.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm still not entirely convinced Scotrail have enough 158s to run Fife Circle, Borders, Far North, Kyle, West Highland, Stranraer, Perth - Edinburgh and the Dundee - Edinburgh Semi Fasts.

I know it doesn't account for a great many units, but the Stranrear and Carlisle G&SW services will continue to use class 156s. I agree that it does still seem like a lot of 158s to source to cover all of those services.

 

[Altnabreac]

I know it doesn't account for a great many units, but the Stranrear and Carlisle G&SW services will continue to use class 156s. I agree that it does still seem like a lot of 158s to source to cover all of those services.

I thought I had remembered it was just the Dumfries route (plus Shotts and Glasgow suburban) that was planned for 156s and Stranraer was going to be 158s but you're entirely correct.

As you say it's still quite a large 158 requirement if you want to entirely displace 170s.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would say that 170s would be welcomed at Northern for the likes of York Blackpool, Sheffield Leeds semi fasts and Calder Valley? No good for the s and C though given 170s and hills arnt always good befellows. This shuffling of the pack could see Northern 158s with Cummins engines going north and 170s south?

 

[edwin_m]

I would say that 170s would be welcomed at Northern for the likes of York Blackpool, Sheffield Leeds semi fasts and Calder Valley? No good for the s and C though given 170s and hills arnt always good befellows. This shuffling of the pack could see Northern 158s with Cummins engines going north and 170s south?

Not sure how a 170 would do on the climbs out of Bradford and into Halifax.