Virgin / Stagecoach win East Coast

[lincolnshire]

I'm pretty pleased to see a proposed 2 hourly service from Bradford & Harrogate. If these services go ahead, will they continue to reverse at Leeds and then run through Wakefield or will they start to use the Hambleton Curve once the wires go up I wonder?

I do like your words proposed Bradford & Harrogate sevice and if these services go ahead, like you I will believe it when I see them start along with all the other proposed service improvements.
If it all doesn,t happen what will happen with the franchise then? will they have it removed or will they be running to the courts and publicity machine and crying about been hard done by.
We will just have to wait and see what happens.

 

[Ground Frame]

They might have been more excited if Keolis really had won (bash the French etc).
As it doesn't fan the flames of immigration or devolution, nobody's interested really.
Railways are "too difficult" for most of the media.
It wasn't mentioned at all on the BBC 10 o'clock news.

Totally agree. In my opinion a disgrace that there was zero reporting from the BBC on prime time news slots for one of Britains most lucrative rail franchises.

 

[Clip]

I do like your words proposed Bradford & Harrogate sevice and if these services go ahead, like you I will believe it when I see them start along with all the other proposed service improvements.
If it all doesn,t happen what will happen with the franchise then? will they have it removed or will they be running to the courts and publicity machine and crying about been hard done by.
We will just have to wait and see what happens.

They probably wont have it removed but probably will incur massive fines for not providing what they commited to in the ffranchise.

 

[Deerfold]

Well, it's taken them twenty years to "innovate" a new railcard.

Other than advanced purchase, which admittedly has changed rail travel (albeit at the expense of affordable walk on travel in some cases), the real innovation seems to have come from the opening up of new routes and competition by open access operators, rather than franchising.

BR had started to offer Advance tickets with the Apex and Super Apex products. There's no reason to assume these wouldn't have developed along similar lines to the current advance tickets.

Well others on here were quoting a trolley service or were they guessing that's what would happen.

Standard already has one member of staff with a trolley going through selling drinks and snacks. It's nothing like the at-seat service offered to First Class passenges which have independent runs coming through with complimentary tea, coffee, alcoholic and soft drinks, crisps, sandwiches, taking orders and delivering hot food.

I've seen nothing to suggest either will change substantially.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Notably it was VT who first brought in the singles thing. Before that a given level of Apex had to be available on both out and return. As you might expect this did not provide optimal yield management.

 

[yorksrob]

BR had started to offer Advance tickets with the Apex and Super Apex products. There's no reason to assume these wouldn't have developed along similar lines to the current advance tickets.
.

Indeed. I well remember how useful super apex returns were. Getting rid of them was the sort of "innovation" we could well do without.

 

[ajdunlop]

It has just occurred to me how lucky Virgin where to lose CrossCountry. XC trains took over and pretty much immediately had a bad image of over crowding and high fares. I wander if the Virgin name was still on both WC and XC services if there would have been the same outcry from the public over the WC bidding fiasco.

Also I hope that the number of Advanced tickets on EC doesn't get reduced to make way for MegaTrain tickets as these are only available on their terrible website which I have always found a bit weird as I thought all tickets had to be book able through ticket offices and TOC websites or at least the NR website.

 

[Greenback]

If you ask me, and to be fair no one did, the whole exercise is just a giant game of musical trains. I expect a reshuffle of other routes will follow in due course, so that the major players will remain but running different TOC's to those that they do now.

Ho hum.

 

[Chrism20]

Standard already has one member of staff with a trolley going through selling drinks and snacks. It's nothing like the at-seat service offered to First Class passenges which have independent runs coming through with complimentary tea, coffee, alcoholic and soft drinks, crisps, sandwiches, taking orders and delivering hot food.

I've seen nothing to suggest either will change substantially.

From the Stagecoach press release

Mobile app that allows customers to order a meal at their seat before or during their journey

That suggests much more than a trolley going back and forth to me. Not all services have a trolley at the moment or on some they only run for part of the route.

This suggests you can plonk yourself down in coach A etc and ping an order for a sandwich and coffee down to the buffet car and someone will come running

 

[ainsworth74]

Since when has a 'meal' been a sandwich and a coffee? I think we'll need to see some detail of what this new system actually is first as to me it means ordering something a bit more substantial than just a sandwich.

 

[Greenback]

Me too. I think there's a lot of detail that needs to be brought into the discussion. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these things never materialise anyway.

 

[Chrism20]

Since when has a 'meal' been a sandwich and a coffee? I think we'll need to see some detail of what this new system actually is first as to me it means ordering something a bit more substantial than just a sandwich.

first food item that came into my head tbh but you do get sandwich 'meal deals'

The next bullet point on the stagecoach press release says 'Increased presence in standard class' so it looks like things will change although an increased presence could mean an on-board shop similar to the WCML.

 

[Deerfold]

From the Stagecoach press release

That suggests much more than a trolley going back and forth to me. Not all services have a trolley at the moment or on some they only run for part of the route.

This suggests you can plonk yourself down in coach A etc and ping an order for a sandwich and coffee down to the buffet car and someone will come running

Thanks - I was looking for something that suggested a bit more but wasn't getting anything. That sounds interesting - I wonder if they may have a wider range and be able to accomodate various dietry requirements on pre-ordered food?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I well remember how useful super apex returns were. Getting rid of them was the sort of "innovation" we could well do without.

SuperApex returns were utterly useless unless you booked months in advance, because they had to be available on both trains - I'm not sure I ever successfully obtained one. Modern "Advance" tickets, modelled on the Virgin Value Singles, are much more useful.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It has just occurred to me how lucky Virgin where to lose CrossCountry. XC trains took over and pretty much immediately had a bad image of over crowding and high fares. I wander if the Virgin name was still on both WC and XC services if there would have been the same outcry from the public over the WC bidding fiasco.

Possibly not. And XC's overcrowding issue is the fault of the original VT management for increasing frequencies (therefore attracting a very significant pent-up demand onto the trains) with no significant capacity increase.

It was said at the time, and it wasn't wrong, that if you doubled frequencies you'd need the same amount of capacity x2 as well.

Neil

 

[baza585]

Funny that on North Of London Intercity operators,
Stagecoach will run...
49% on the ICWC, 90% on ICEC and 100% on EMML. I am surprised their has been no outcry of monopoly.

Yes the SNP are normally very vocal on such matters.

However on this occasion, a total silence. I wonder why?

Presumably (political donation) money talks.

 

[D6975]

Leeds is going to be rather a busy place isn't it.
It already has 2tph, looks like it will be 3tph in future. (peaks hours at least)
The Bradford and Harrogate 2 hourly is surely going to be 2x5 splitting at Leeds I would have thought. The Huddersfield/Skipton might go that way too, the direct Bradford will steer some pax away from the Skipton, so 5 should be long enough.

 

[BantamMenace]

So if all these service expansions go ahead to the likes of Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax and Lincoln will they became part of the compulsory franchise invitation to tender in 7-8 years time and the options consist of further extensions?

For example the incoming franchisee for 2022 will have to run services to Lincoln but the option will be to extend them to the lincolnshire coast, Scunthrope and Grimsby.
And they'll have to run services one service a day to Skipton calling at Keighley but the option will be to run a 2-hourly service to Skipton calling at Bingley and Keighley with a 5-car IEP.

Personally i'd like to see Euston to Edinburgh and Kings Cross to Glasgow as regular hourly or 2-hourly service so theres some real competition regardless of the franchise holders.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally i'd like to see Euston to Edinburgh and Kings Cross to Glasgow as regular hourly or 2-hourly service

Euston to Edinburgh does exist 2-hourly as a result of the Euston-Wolves and Brum-Scotland services being joined together at the last timetable change. It's slow but seems to be carrying fairly substantial numbers of through passengers.

Neil

 

[Deerfold]

SuperApex returns were utterly useless unless you booked months in advance, because they had to be available on both trains - I'm not sure I ever successfully obtained one. Modern "Advance" tickets, modelled on the Virgin Value Singles, are much more useful.

Neil

I don't recall any problems getting them a couple of weeks in advance - but there's nothing to say that BR would not have made these same changes.

When I got them (Leeds - London) there was no time restriction on the return half - so rather like having a Virgin Saver Half that made a comeback many years later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I got them (Leeds - London) there was no time restriction on the return half - so rather like having a Virgin Saver Half that made a comeback many years later.

Really? When was that? I remember them on the WCML as a child when they were first introduced (priced at £19 from Liverpool to London I think) and reservations were compulsory both ways.

In about 2000 VT introduced a walk-up Saturday Day Out from Liverpool to London for £20, this soon gained reservations on the outward leg only as a means of implementing a quota. However it is the only ticket I have ever come across where reservations were compulsory on one leg (other than combining an Advance with a VT Saver Half as noted).

Neil

 

[Deerfold]

Really? When was that? I remember them on the WCML as a child when they were first introduced (priced at £19 from Liverpool to London I think) and reservations were compulsory both ways.

Neil

1991. £14 with railcard, valid on the 0505 or 0605 Saturday service from Leeds; any train on the return.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Euston to Edinburgh does exist 2-hourly as a result of the Euston-Wolves and Brum-Scotland services being joined together at the last timetable change. It's slow but seems to be carrying fairly substantial numbers of through passengers.

Neil

Including me - Its speed is made up for by its price in many cases, erp in First where the amazing levels of First seats on the pendos.not only that but out of the London mainline stations KGX is my least favourit

 

[Deerfold]

Leeds is going to be rather a busy place isn't it.
It already has 2tph, looks like it will be 3tph in future. (peaks hours at least)
The Bradford and Harrogate 2 hourly is surely going to be 2x5 splitting at Leeds I would have thought. The Huddersfield/Skipton might go that way too, the direct Bradford will steer some pax away from the Skipton, so 5 should be long enough.

Leeds - London already has 3tph for 1 hour each way.

The DfT site suggests Leeds will get 6 extra EC services a day, but Wakefield will get no more.

 

[The Ham]

So if all these service expansions go ahead to the likes of Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax and Lincoln will they became part of the compulsory franchise invitation to tender in 7-8 years time and the options consist of further extensions?

For example the incoming franchisee for 2022 will have to run services to Lincoln but the option will be to extend them to the lincolnshire coast, Scunthrope and Grimsby.
And they'll have to run services one service a day to Skipton calling at Keighley but the option will be to run a 2-hourly service to Skipton calling at Bingley and Keighley with a 5-car IEP.

Personally i'd like to see Euston to Edinburgh and Kings Cross to Glasgow as regular hourly or 2-hourly service so theres some real competition regardless of the franchise holders.

The 2022 franchise (assuming it also runs for 7/8 years) maybe a bit of an odd one in that it could be overlapping the start of both phases of HS2, which although may result in more destinations served may also result in a lot of longer distance services (at least to London) seeing passengers switch to HS2.

It therefore could be a challenging franchise to work out what is going to happen and how it will be run.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

The problem with this franchise that won't go away is the amount bid.
GNER failed at £1.3bn over 8 years
NXEC failed at £1.4bn over 7 years
DOR succeeded at £1bn over 5 years

Allegedly VTEC will pay £3.3bn over 8 years. More than twice as much as DOR and two previous failures couldn't even manage that.

The *only* way they can do this is via huge fare increases. OK so they will reach more destinations for the last 3 years, but the leasing costs are higher too.

As a regular East Coast passenger I am not viewing this new franchise as a good thing......

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk 2

 

[Bletchleyite]

1991. £14 with railcard, valid on the 0505 or 0605 Saturday service from Leeds; any train on the return.

Ah, a much earlier implementation than I recall (mid 1990s) I expect.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Including me - Its speed is made up for by its price in many cases, erp in First where the amazing levels of First seats on the pendos.not only that but out of the London mainline stations KGX is my least favourit

Even in its new form? I think it was awful but it's now nice.

Will be interesting to see what happens to these fares when the 9-car Pendolinos (most common stock on these services) are changed to 3 first 6 standard as is planned.

Neil

 

[al.currie93]

The problem with this franchise that won't go away is the amount bid.
GNER failed at £1.3bn over 8 years
NXEC failed at £1.4bn over 7 years
DOR succeeded at £1bn over 5 years

Allegedly VTEC will pay £3.3bn over 8 years. More than twice as much as DOR and two previous failures couldn't even manage that.

The *only* way they can do this is via huge fare increases. OK so they will reach more destinations for the last 3 years, but the leasing costs are higher too.

As a regular East Coast passenger I am not viewing this new franchise as a good thing......

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk 2

Hmmm, interesting. I feel the same as you but we'll see. Could seriously harm Virgin's reputation if it does go the same way as the last two private companies to try and run it!

 

[Greenback]

I can remember Super Apex tickets being available of very limited routes in 1991, and perhaps even before that. Am I right in that they first appeared on the Liverpool route and were very much a local initiative in that area?

 

[mirodo]

That suggests much more than a trolley going back and forth to me. Not all services have a trolley at the moment or on some they only run for part of the route.

This suggests you can plonk yourself down in coach A etc and ping an order for a sandwich and coffee down to the buffet car and someone will come running

Note how the press release says "order" and not "have delivered". Burnley FC offer an "iPie" app (run by a company called Preoday) - you place your order at any time, then collect your order from the concession stand without having to queue with the rest of the pie buyers. I wonder if the proposed offering will be something similar.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So if all these service expansions go ahead to the likes of Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax and Lincoln will they became part of the compulsory franchise invitation to tender in 7-8 years time and the options consist of further extensions?

The original ITT did not mandate services to these extra destinations, but did call for options.
We will have to wait till the franchise agreement is published to find out if the DfT has actually contracted for these service, or left it to VTEC to run at commercial risk.
For instance there might be a trial period followed by a review.
Shrewsbury and Blackpool were in that position on ICWC but I gather they are now contracted to VT as part of the franchise agreement.
Meanwhile Wrexham was a VT initiative and is still not in the contract, so could be pulled at any time.