Least appropriate use of Pacers?

[RTN]

Hello

Where on Northern Rail are the least appropriate regular deployments of Pacers?

I'm guessing Hope Valley and Calder Valley are up there, but I'm interested to know which other lines there are concerns about.

This is to help with campaigning work we're doing - Right Track North is calling on DfT to commit to a timetable for ending the use of Pacers on Northern Rail.

More here if you're interested. http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/b...north-campaigning-better-trains-north-england

Here is summary of what Right Track North is campaigning for:


Better trains: The large majority of Northern Rail's rolling stock is ageing diesels, many of which are nearing 30 years old. These are slow, uncomfortable and very unpopular with passengers. They will also be illegal by 2020 because of the poor access they offer to people with mobility problems. There should be a clear timetable for replacing older rolling stock and to meet basic standards of comfort, reliability and cleanliness, and to tackle overcrowding.

Thanks

 

[northwichcat]

Depends what you mean by 'inappropriate'

Inappropriate because they're too small? because the journey is too long? because of squealing on sharp bends? because of the ride quality (particularly on jointed track)?

I'd suggest both the Southport and Mid-Cheshire lines are less suitable than the Hope Valley stoppers which you've nominated.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I could be sarcastic and say "anywhere", but really it's the longer-distance services that are the real issue. They're a particular problem on the Tyne Valley line services to Carlisle, as they're often seriously overcrowded as well as being chronically uncomfortable for a 90 minute journey.

 

[DarloRich]

Hello

Where on Northern Rail are the least appropriate regular deployments of Pacers?

I'm guessing Hope Valley and Calder Valley are up there, but I'm interested to know which other lines there are concerns about.

This is to help with campaigning work we're doing - Right Track North is calling on DfT to commit to a timetable for ending the use of Pacers on Northern Rail.

More here if you're interested. http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/b...north-campaigning-better-trains-north-england

Thanks

Fine - Can Right Track North send a cheque for c.1bn to:

Rt Hon. Patrick McLoughlin MP
C/O DfT
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR

This kind of thing is tiresome - yes pacers are less good than other train but they are also cheaper to run keeping the costs for Northern passengers down. Perhaps you could nominate from where replacement trains can be extracted or how you wish to pay for the new trains?

If you suggest any variation of "well the south get new trains all the time”/”It is about time money was spent on the north” etc I will scream

 

[Tetchytyke]

This kind of thing is tiresome - yes pacers are less good than other train but they are also cheaper to run keeping the costs for Northern passengers down.

Pacers are many things but one thing they definitely aren't is cheap.

 

[DarloRich]

Pacers are many things but one thing they definitely aren't is cheap.

They were cheap to build, they are cheap (ish now) to maintain, they offer a cheap route for the ROSCO to make a fortune and they help to keep fares down in the north.

 

[tbtc]

It really depends on what you mean by "least appropriate". Expect a lot of "witty" comments about how any service is inapproproate from the usual suspects on here (and some extreme examples where a Pacer has had to deputise for something else to avoid a service being cancelled), but is "least appropriate" about the speed of the service, the speed of the line, the comfort, being able to keep to the timings of that service (tight curves/ steep hills etc)...?

On the Hope Valley route, you have over a dozen intermediate stops in a roughly forty mile journey, which seems "okay" for a 75mph DMU (with decent enough acceleration/ braking), most of the passengers are travelling shorter distances where a Pacer is reasonable (I could cope with one for half an hour or so).

However, you get the problem on the Hope Valley (where the "stopper" isn't intended for long distance passengers, carefully timed betwen them) that a problem to TPE/ EMT mean that a large number of longer distance passengers end up on a Pacer.

For example, at the moment, the next "fast" Manchester service from Sheffield is the 14:11 to Manchester Airport. BUT, that's running late, it's not going to leave until 14:25. This means that the 14:14 "stopper" (timed to leave Sheffield just after the TPE service and arrive at Manchester Piccadilly a minute or two before the next "fast" service between the cities - i.e. not attractive for longer distance travel) is going to be swamped with Manchester passengers.

The Pacer may not cope with that sudden influx of passengers, the Pacer isn't suited to an eighty minute "end to end" journey like this, the Pacer isn't appropriate for those passengers.

BUT, the same could be said of 350s running from Crewe/Birmingham to London - they aren't intended for "end to end" passengers, they'd not be able to cope if passengers from a cancelled Pendolino all boarded this slower service... the difference is that nobody serious is saying that a 350 is inappropriate for the job that it does.

The Calder Valley is a different kettle of fish - a Pacer shouldn't be running the "fast" services on this route (okay on the "via Brighouse" services that obviously aren't intended for Leeds to Manchester travel), there's no alternative better services between Bradford and Manchester (unlike Sheffield to Manchester).

So whilst it's possible to do Liverpool - Manchester and Manchester - Leeds (via Brighouse) and Leeds - Sheffield and Sheffield - Manchester by Pacer, these services are all "local" ones with faster/bigger alternatives for long distance services.

I can't see Pacers being withdrawn in northern England in this decade - I think that keeping some into the early 2020s (when sufficient "local" routes will be electrified) is the least bad option, but appreciate that I am very much in a minority on this Forum.

(stands back to wait for the usual "nodding donkeys"/ "Newton Heath's finest"/ "send them all to London" stuff to start)

 

[northwichcat]

So whilst it's possible to do Liverpool - Manchester and Manchester - Leeds (via Brighouse) and Leeds - Sheffield and Sheffield - Manchester by Pacer, these services are all "local" ones with faster/bigger alternatives for long distance services.

I think one of the issues with Pacers is due to their usage on so many different lines you can finish up making a longish journey with a change on the fastest available services (e.g. Edale-Southport) and finish up making each leg on a Pacer.

 

[thealexweb]

Blackpool North to Huddersfield is usually booked to be a 142. Awful DMU for such a long service.

 

[starrymarkb]

Possibly FGW's attempt at Paignton to Paddington on a 142 (Stopped at Swindon because Control didn't want a 75mph unit clogging the fasts during the am peak!)

 

[GarethJohn]

Inappropriate is probably not the correct term but turning up to a Preserved Railway line with lots of big Steam Engines and finding that this is what your going on would be for some very disappointing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_141

 

[MidnightFlyer]

As I so often do on here, once again I find myself unable to fault tbtc. The thoroughly tedious onslaught on here of 'Nodding Donkeys' or 'They should send them on Uckfield-London Bridge to see how they like it' is frankly immature and serves nothing for a proper discussion into what is a pressing issue.

Blackpool North to Huddersfield is usually booked to be a 142. Awful DMU for such a long service.

How many people would do that journey end-to-end though? If anything it's an operationally-convenient joining of two services, i.e. Blackpool-Manchester and Manchester-Huddersfield; very few will stay onboard for more than an hour or so, especially if assuming most people from Blackpool and Preston will use the faster trains if they time it right.

 

[alwaystouchout]

Must be the Mid Cheshire Line; Knutsford is sizable commuter town with only an hourly service, and every time I've seen it it's been a Pacer.

 

[northwichcat]

How many people would do that journey end-to-end though? If anything it's an operationally-convenient joining of two services, i.e. Blackpool-Manchester and Manchester-Huddersfield; very few will stay onboard for more than an hour or so, especially if assuming most people from Blackpool and Preston will use the faster trains if they time it right.

I don't know the answer but I do know that Journey Planners suggest using the direct service if you are travelling between Blackpool and Huddersfield.

A couple of weeks ago a group of people travelling between Bradford and Chester got a Mid-Cheshire line service between Manchester and Chester. They said the Journey Planner told them to use (not the fast service via Warrington) but they had regretted using it when they realised it was a single Pacer with a loading of around 200.

 

[GarethJohn]

Is there anywhere that they could be a better option than the current Train?
The Cambrian Coast in Winter(prior to the new Signalling) between Mach and Pwllhelli especially the School Train's that stop at every station springs to mind or the 08:15 Mach to Aber.

 

[northwichcat]

Must be the Mid Cheshire Line; Knutsford is sizable commuter town with only an hourly service, and every time I've seen it it's been a Pacer.

Now I worked out the exact proportion of weekday services which were booked as Pacers but I lost the scrap of paper I did it on. I think it was something like 48% class 150s, 44% class 142s and 8% 156s, although it does often feel like the proportion of 142s is higher. The earlier you travel the higher chance you have of getting a Sprinter.

 

[Trainfan344]

Inappropriate is probably not the correct term but turning up to a Preserved Railway line with lots of big Steam Engines and finding that this is what your going on would be for some very disappointing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_141

Not as bad as turning up to a preserved line expecting either a diesel or a steam loco and getting this turn up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_railbuses#mediaviewer/File:Lev1nnr.jpg

 

[deltic08]

Fine - Can Right Track North send a cheque for c.1bn to:

Rt Hon. Patrick McLoughlin MP
C/O DfT
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR

This kind of thing is tiresome - yes pacers are less good than other train but they are also cheaper to run keeping the costs for Northern passengers down. Perhaps you could nominate from where replacement trains can be extracted or how you wish to pay for the new trains?

If you suggest any variation of "well the south get new trains all the time”/”It is about time money was spent on the north” etc I will scream

Go ahead and scream then because there IS inequality between the north and south. The southeast sees 9x more rail investment than Yorkshire and Humberside but rail fares in the south do not reflect this so stop complaining about cheap fares in the north.

Pacers are not cheap to maintain as they are overused for the installed engineering and are now knackered and difficult to keep in service.

Fares on Northern have just been increased for evening peak travel but where are the new trains for these passengers? Nowhere to be seen or even on the horizon.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Stands back to wait for the usual "nodding donkeys"/ "Newton Heath's finest"/ "send them all to London" stuff to start.

I will refrain from making the expected comments of the type that I normally make on this particular subject and would just content myself with asking a comparative question of where would 27-29 year old step-access buses be viewed as being acceptable as a mode of transport.

Just to make matters clear, my views on the Class 142 Pacers are indeed different than my views on the Class 143/144 Pacers.

 

[northwichcat]

Go ahead and scream then because there IS inequality between the north and south.

Yes. I doubt DfT would allow TPE to approach Porterbrook for the 171s which go off lease next year in the same way Chiltern approached Porterbrook for the 170/3s which TPE still need but weren't able to extend a lease for due to the franchise end date.

 

[JamesRowden]

Yes. I doubt DfT would allow TPE to approach Porterbrook for the 171s which go off lease next year in the same way Chiltern approached Porterbrook for the 170/3s which TPE still need but weren't able to extend a lease for due to the franchise end date.

I expect that Chiltern and Southern can make more money through having the Turbostars and can subsequently offer more money for them. All that the leasing companies will care about is how much money they can make.

 

[deltic08]

As I so often do on here, once again I find myself unable to fault tbtc. The thoroughly tedious onslaught on here of 'Nodding Donkeys' or 'They should send them on Uckfield-London Bridge to see how they like it' is frankly immature and serves nothing for a proper discussion into what is a pressing issue.



How many people would do that journey end-to-end though? If anything it's an operationally-convenient joining of two services, i.e. Blackpool-Manchester and Manchester-Huddersfield; very few will stay onboard for more than an hour or so, especially if assuming most people from Blackpool and Preston will use the faster trains if they time it right.

If members of the Cabinet had to use Pacers on a daily basis, Pacers would not exist. The North has suffered Pacers for nearly 30 years because the South wouldn't have them. Regular Pacer users have had enough and that is why they are bitter.

 

[CC 72100]

Go ahead and scream then because there IS inequality between the north and south. The southeast sees 9x more rail investment than Yorkshire and Humberside but rail fares in the south do not reflect this so stop complaining about cheap fares in the north.

Pacers are not cheap to maintain as they are overused for the installed engineering and are now knackered and difficult to keep in service.
.

You have fallen into the trap of using 'South' as a translation of 'London and immediate radius/ South East'.

Come down here to Devon and Cornwall and you'll find just as much as sweating of the assets that you suffer in the North, you'll also find just as much overcrowding on branch lines, and the only new stock that we have is the Voyagers on Intercity services - normally 1 train per hour at the periphery of the XC network.

And we most certainly count as 'the South'.

 

[DarloRich]

Go ahead and scream then because there IS inequality between the north and south. The southeast sees 9x more rail investment than Yorkshire and Humberside but rail fares in the south do not reflect this so stop complaining about cheap fares in the north.

Pacers are not cheap to maintain as they are overused for the installed engineering and are now knackered and difficult to keep in service.

Fares on Northern have just been increased for evening peak travel but where are the new trains for these passengers? Nowhere to be seen or even on the horizon.

That would be the south east where all the money and passengers are? Sadly for me, as an exile, I wish this wasn’t true but unpleasant or not facts are facts.

While Manchester and Leeds are busy they rank somewhere outside of the top 10 busiest stations in the UK. 9 of the top 10 busiest are in London. The other is Birmingham. Of the top 20, 5 are outside London. Of the top 30, 7 are outside of the South East. Does that tell you something? Need we start looking at population figures?

Also to suggest the North isn’t getting investment is a myth: Northern Hub and TP electrification (to name 2) are two vast projects. They will bring better journeys across a wider area and bring newer trains. Will they be brand new trains? No not on day one - but new trains will come on the back of this investment.

As for the fares in the north they are still cheaper than many in the south. An annual standard class + zone 1-6 season ticket from Bletchley to London is £5,028.00. An annual for the same journey but without the tube is £4,128. An annual standard class season ticket, valid by any route between Leeds and Manchester ( a comparable distance) is £2908.00.

Yes. I doubt DfT would allow TPE to approach Porterbrook for the 171s which go off lease next year in the same way Chiltern approached Porterbrook for the 170/3s which TPE still need but weren't able to extend a lease for due to the franchise end date.

Perhaps if the DFT sorted themselves out and decided what to do with TPE the ludicrous position with the 170’s wouldn’t occur! If you were the leasing company and were offered a potential deal with TPE or a solid, cash on the table, ready to exchange today 10 year deal from Chiltern what would you do………..

That isn’t a north v south issue – that is a competence issue!

 

[northwichcat]

I expect that Chiltern and Southern can make more money through having the Turbostars and can subsequently offer more money for them. All that the leasing companies will care about is how much money they can make.

Really? The company who stops 171s at little villages like Winchelsea, Three Oaks, Appledore and Doleham, which combined give significantly less passengers than TPE's lowest usage stations. TPE had 2 services in the most recent 'top 10 overcrowded trains' list, Southern had none.

 

[JamesRowden]

Really? The company who stops 171s at little villages like Winchelsea, Three Oaks, Appledore and Doleham, which combined give significantly less passengers than TPE's lowest usage stations.

Winchelsea: 1tp2h
Three Oaks: 1tp2h
Appledore: 1tph
Doleham: No offpeak service

Also, I thought you were saying that Northern should get the 171s.

 

[PHILIPE]

Nobody has mentioned Leeds to Morecambe yet.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Hello

Where on Northern Rail are the least appropriate regular deployments of Pacers?

I'm guessing Hope Valley and Calder Valley are up there, but I'm interested to know which other lines there are concerns about.

This is to help with campaigning work we're doing - Right Track North is calling on DfT to commit to a timetable for ending the use of Pacers on Northern Rail.

More here if you're interested. http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/b...north-campaigning-better-trains-north-england



Thanks

I nominate Lancaster to Carlisle via Barrow. It got very painful after Whitehaven.

 

[northwichcat]

Winchelsea: 1tp2h
Three Oaks: 1tp2h
Appledore: 1tph
Doleham: No offpeak service

There's no intermediate station which has a high level of usage (at least compared to TPE). To bring things back on topic Marshlink sounds like the kind of route that Pacers were intended for, lots of low usage stations between the origin and destination.

Also, I thought you were saying that Northern should get the 171s.

No TPE as direct replacement for the 170/3s they are losing.

I doubt DfT would allow TPE to approach Porterbrook for the 171s which go off lease next year in the same way Chiltern approached Porterbrook for the 170/3s which TPE still need but weren't able to extend a lease for due to the franchise end date.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for the fares in the north they are still cheaper than many in the south. An annual standard class + zone 1-6 season ticket from Bletchley to London is £5,028.00. An annual for the same journey but without the tube is £4,128. An annual standard class season ticket, valid by any route between Leeds and Manchester ( a comparable distance) is £2908.00.

Remember that London fares are significantly higher on average than fares in the South which don't include travel to or via London.

Manchester-London at peak times is one of the most expensive Intercity fares but at least you get a nice long 125mph capable Intercity train every 20 minutes, unlike what you get between Manchester and Scotland.

 

[JamesRowden]

There's no intermediate station which has a high level of usage (at least compared to TPE). To bring things back on topic Marshlink sounds like the kind of route that Pacers were intended for, lots of low usage stations between the origin and destination.



No TPE as direct replacement for the 170/3s they are losing.

A microfleet of 3 pacers for a Hastings-Ashford service would not be an efficient setup. Rather than getting brand new Pacers/Sprinters in the 80's, the Marshlink had to put up with the class 205/207 trains that were over 40 years old when replaced in 2004. Also: the Sussex RUS showed that splitting the Brighton-Ashford service at Hastings does not have a buiseness case. The 171s are frequently overcrowded off-peak between Brighton and Hastings.