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Unavailability of toilets on TPE

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Moonshot

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What a ridiculous post. It would be quite simple wouldn't it "we're now having a 5 minute stop to allow people to use the toilet facilities at this station"

And that's it, you go on 5 minutes.

I don't care whether they do or they don't by the way but your whole post was just ridiculous, talking about personal needs breaks and walking time.

Who on earth checks whether their train has functioning toilets before making a journey? And yet you say it as though they're somehow at fault for not bothering. How about a party of 25 men on the real ale trail?

You think they're going to stop mid session and say "hang on lads I'm just going to check if the next train has a working toilet"

No of course they're not and they're also not going to take kindly to being told there's no provision for them to have a wee.

Customers deserve a level of service, I know from your posts on here that you're in love with shareholders and think everybody whether staff or customer should take whatever they're given and thank the almighty shareholder but it's a basic human requirement and the bare minimum a customer should be provided with.

If they can't provide it on board then they should provide it elsewhere and if that costs them delays then tough

Just in case you are not aware , I actually work in this industry on the front line. As I made clear, I applied how the railway industry would apply their logic and ways of working to this situation.

So by your logic, if a provision was made for a 5 minute stop, how would you ( if you had to make a decision ) deal with a customer who said to you they needed more than 5 minutes? What if the nearest facility was more than 2.5 minutes walking time away ?

"Who on earth checks if a train has functioning toilets " as you posted.......well if you are implying that such people are a bit sad, you might want to discuss your reasoning with the OP, who brought this issue to the attention of the forum.

You also mention " basic human requirements ".....maybe you should do some research into this whole topic of toilet provision in the rail industry - start by finding out just how many there are in stations and on trains. Start with the bigger stations first run by Network Rail ( who dont have shareholders by the way ) - its a good starting point because 70% of rail journeys either start or end there. Bear also in mind that the average journey time spent by a passenger on a train is 45 minutes.

Come back to us when you have some decent detail, it would be interesting to see as I do like hard facts to back up an argument.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Come back to us when you have some decent detail, it would be interesting to see as I do like hard facts to back up an argument.

How many public toilets are there on Dewsbury station again?

If TPE don't have a single spare unit then fair enough, but otherwise that unit should not be out in public service.
 

Moonshot

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How many public toilets are there on Dewsbury station again?

If TPE don't have a single spare unit then fair enough, but otherwise that unit should not be out in public service.

And by the same token, how many at Piccadilly , Leeds , Huddersfield, Liverpool and Newcastle?

Very easy to quote facts in isolation etc to try and make a point.

If TPE did have a spare unit , do you think that a service should be delayed for an hour so as to enable a swap if the spare unit was sat some miles away?
 

northwichcat

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The reasons I suggested Leeds for an extended break is because TPE usually stop there for a few minutes anyway, quite often change crews there and the fact the toilets platform side are free. It's also around the mid-point of Liverpool-Scarborough, including a toilet break at Warrington would be of no benefit to someone doing Manchester-Scarborough.

If someone was doing Llandudno-Scarborough and the service from Llandudno was late arriving in Manchester then the fact the station has toilet facilities is irrelevant as the passenger would add an hour to their journey by using them.

If an elderly passenger complained about lack of toilet facilities on a 3 hour journey and customer relations quoted 'average journey time is 45 minutes' then the person who quoted that would need to be disciplined.
 

Moonshot

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Its also worth pointing out that conductors will fix faulty loos en route if they possibly can, this hasnt been mentioned at all, but certainly faulty loo door issues can be remedied in service by guards.
 

Moonshot

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The reasons I suggested Leeds for an extended break is because TPE usually stop there for a few minutes anyway, quite often change crews there and the fact the toilets platform side are free. It's also around the mid-point of Liverpool-Scarborough, including a toilet break at Warrington would be of no benefit to someone doing Manchester-Scarborough.

If someone was doing Llandudno-Scarborough and the service from Llandudno was late arriving in Manchester then the fact the station has toilet facilities is irrelevant as the passenger would add an hour to their journey by using them.

If an elderly passenger complained about lack of toilet facilities on a 3 hour journey and customer relations quoted 'average journey time is 45 minutes' then the person who quoted that would need to be disciplined.


Just out of interest, if you were intending to travel and you were aware that the train you wanted to catch had toilets that were out of service, would you travel on that train?
 

bb21

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If an elderly passenger complained about lack of toilet facilities on a 3 hour journey and customer relations quoted 'average journey time is 45 minutes' then the person who quoted that would need to be disciplined.

Then they will probably be sent some RTVs.

As seen in this thread, if possible, toilets breaks do get incorporated. If not, then tough. Life is not perfect sometimes. If you know you can get caught short, try and get yourself sorted before leaving.

If you are caught short mid-journey, I am sure staff will try and do their best to help but it is not always possible to do exactly what you want.
 

Moonshot

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Then they will probably be sent some RTVs.

As seen in this thread, if possible, toilets breaks do get incorporated. If not, then tough. Life is not perfect sometimes. If you know you can get caught short, try and get yourself sorted before leaving.

If you are caught short mid-journey, I am sure staff will try and do their best to help but it is not always possible to do exactly what you want.

I assume RTVs means Redeemable Toilet Vouchers :D
 

northwichcat

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Just out of interest, if you were intending to travel and you were aware that the train you wanted to catch had toilets that were out of service, would you travel on that train?

What journey am I making? It's makes a bit of a difference if your doing Scarborough-Manchester compared to Stockport-Manchester.

When I did Scarborough-Knutsford a couple of months back the train was delayed at York due to a track defect which meant it added an hour to my total journey time (to make it around 4 hours 10) and I did use the toilet on the TPE train. As I was travelling on an Advance ticket for part of the journey I had to use the booked TPE train as far as Huddersfield so if the toilets had both been out-of-order my options would have been:
1. Alight at Huddersfield and use the toilet facilities there and board the next train.
2. Waited longer to use the toilets at Piccadilly for a charge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I assume RTVs means Redeemable Toilet Vouchers :D

Maybe suggest that to Network Rail so paying rail passengers can use station facilities for free but others have to pay?
 

Moonshot

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What journey am I making? It's makes a bit of a difference if your doing Scarborough-Manchester compared to Stockport-Manchester.

When I did Scarborough-Knutsford a couple of months back the train was delayed at York due to a track defect which meant it added an hour to my total journey time (to make it around 4 hours 10) and I did use the toilet on the TPE train. As I was travelling on an Advance ticket for part of the journey I had to use the booked TPE train as far as Huddersfield so if the toilets had both been out-of-order my options would have been:
1. Alight at Huddersfield and use the toilet facilities there and board the next train.
2. Waited longer to use the toilets at Piccadilly for a charge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Maybe suggest that to Network Rail so paying rail passengers can use station facilities for free but others have to pay?



I ll just repeat what I asked .....

Just out of interest, if you were intending to travel and you were aware that the train you wanted to catch had toilets that were out of service, would you travel on that train?

Just a simple yes or no please ....
 

northwichcat

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i ll just repeat what i asked .....

Just out of interest, if you were intending to travel and you were aware that the train you wanted to catch had toilets that were out of service, would you travel on that train?

Just a simple yes or no please ....

Clarify your generic question. For what journey? Or can you not understand that very simple request?
 
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yorksrob

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I am sure staff will try and do their best to help but it is not always possible to do exactly what you want.

Depends on the staff.

On one occasion, the last train from Leeds to Wakefield Westgate was replaced by a rather long (standing room only) coach journey. Cue long rush of people to the toilet at the end, only to find that although the gents was physically open, the staff member at Wakefield refused entry to all the passengers on account of the fact that he was about to close up and " he needed to get home too".
 

Moonshot

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So the answer has to be the same for Edinburgh-London as for Stalybridge-Manchester? Try asking a sensible question.

Ok ....so if you were aware that a longer distance train you intended to travel on had no functioning toilet, would you travel on that train, yes or no?
 
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Ok ....so if you were aware that a longer distance train you intended to travel on had no functioning toilet, would you travel on that train, yes or no?


Personally yes I would travel on the train, I rarely use the toilet on a train. Not after I was coming home on an East Coast HST the same night as the York Races. It put me off.
 

Albatross

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Just in case you are not aware , I actually work in this industry on the front line. As I made clear, I applied how the railway industry would apply their logic and ways of working to this situation.

So by your logic, if a provision was made for a 5 minute stop, how would you ( if you had to make a decision ) deal with a customer who said to you they needed more than 5 minutes? What if the nearest facility was more than 2.5 minutes walking time away ?

"Who on earth checks if a train has functioning toilets " as you posted.......well if you are implying that such people are a bit sad, you might want to discuss your reasoning with the OP, who brought this issue to the attention of the forum.

You also mention " basic human requirements ".....maybe you should do some research into this whole topic of toilet provision in the rail industry - start by finding out just how many there are in stations and on trains. Start with the bigger stations first run by Network Rail ( who dont have shareholders by the way ) - its a good starting point because 70% of rail journeys either start or end there. Bear also in mind that the average journey time spent by a passenger on a train is 45 minutes.

Come back to us when you have some decent detail, it would be interesting to see as I do like hard facts to back up an argument.

Oh I'm well aware, you drop it into every post and from reading between the lines I'd say you've been on about two minutes.

Plenty of us on here also drive trains pal and don't think it gives our opinion any more merit than those that don't.
 

Nevillehill

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whenever I need a toilet when I am on a train and they are out of order I Break My Journey even though its not allowed although its unlikely they will all be out of order on the longer distance trains which use stock like pendos. voyagers etc

I just have a crap in the vestiule lol
 

muz379

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Surely if the passenger was told at the time of booking or buying the ticket that there was a toilet on board then these facilities should be provided one way or the other , be that in the usual form on board or if that is not available then via a station stop .

If we where talking about a service where public toilet facilities are not advertised like the London underground then obviously the onus is on the passengers to make arrangements for themselves as they are aware that the underground trains do not have loos .

Customers deserve a level of service, I know from your posts on here that you're in love with shareholders and think everybody whether staff or customer should take whatever they're given and thank the almighty shareholder but it's a basic human requirement and the bare minimum a customer should be provided with.

If they can't provide it on board then they should provide it elsewhere and if that costs them delays then tough

I completely agree with this ,I think there should be rules meaning that if a journey is over a certain length and no Loo is provided on board due to a fault the train should have to stop for a rest stop .

As a guard myself if I was working a long journey and the passengers want a toilet break then regardless of what control the signaler or the driver say the train is stopping for a toilet break . If they dont like it they can come and be the one to inform passengers and work the train onwards from there .

I suppose following Moonshots usual logic we should ask
"what is the minimum number of passengers that need a toilet break before one should be organized" :roll:

Any passenger that has an issue with the train stopping and being delayed for a toilet break is more than welcome to excercise their right to break the journey and catch the next train .

Even murderers in prison get a loo . Can we at least treat our passengers as well as murderers :p





Come back to us when you have some decent detail, it would be interesting to see as I do like hard facts to back up an argument.

This is an area where detail facts and statistics are irrelevant .Even if 100% of stations had toilets and 0.0001% of passengers ever used the toilet on the train and 0.00000001% of trains run without a functioning toilet trains without working toilets should still be making a toilet stop to cater for that minority .

I as a guard could not refuse even a single passenger on a train with 1000 people on a break to use the toilet under those circumstances . It is a basic human need .

Just in case you are not aware , I actually work in this industry on the front line. As I made clear, I applied how the railway industry would apply their logic and ways of working to this situation.
Wrong again , refusing passengers such a basic human need because of faults with a unit is not actually the way railway logic is applied
Look at the small number of passengers we carry who are disabled and yet we go above and beyond to assist them . Why isv this , because commercially carrying a ramp on every train and at every station and training and insuring guards and station staff to use the ramps is not commercially worthwhile , nor is paying for the delays that extra dwell times due to loading and unloading disabled passengers causes . By your logic we should stop carrying disabled pax because there is such a small number and they cause knock on delays .

you are not applying logic at all you are trying to assert your shareholder loving view of the railway as a method of just shifting people from A-B with no regard for their preferences as long as the shareholder is happy and getting paid massive dividends .


I ll just repeat what I asked .....

Just out of interest, if you were intending to travel and you were aware that the train you wanted to catch had toilets that were out of service, would you travel on that train?

Just a simple yes or no please ....
so misguided , :roll:

This is so obviously not a question that just requires a yes or no answer I dont actually know if I should take your question seriously or not

there are so many variables . journey length , ticket type , the personal characteristics of the passenger , the weather conditions , the facilities at the station they have boarded at .

Perhaps you would accept it if one of your frail elderly relatives was told the only way they where going to be using the toilet on a long journey is if they lugged all of their luggage off the train , and waited around an hour for the next service to their destination . But I would not take kindly to this , any member of rail staff that refused a customer this basic need should be disciplined IMO .


If I was traveling from Manchester Victoria to Bolton with my rucksack . I would board a train with no working toilets , or if I needed the toilet there and then use the ones at Vic and then board a later train to Bolton given the frequency

If I was travelling from Manchester Airport to middlesbrough on an Advance ticket as a lone man with my 2 children and 3 suitcases , I would have to board the train due to the advance ticket . But here I would expect either to have my ticket endorsed so I could use another train so I could make a toilet break myself . Or more prefereably I would much rather the train make a toilet break stop off . Especially owing to the fact that I have children and lots of luggage with me

If I was making that same Airport to middlesbrough journey but on my own with a small holdall and an open ticket that allowed me to use any train I would probably board the train but would have a break of journey if I needed the toilet .

What about people that are transfering from other services . What if I arrive at pic from the airport on a TPE and 5 minutes later I am due out on a virgin service . Here I have complied with the minimum connection times but would not have time to use the facilities at the station if virgin did indeed inform me prior to boarding that the toilets where out of order .


And indeed passengers might not have use for the toilets before getting on a train but an hour into my journey they might

Ok ....so if you were aware that a longer distance train you intended to travel on had no functioning toilet, would you travel on that train, yes or no?

If the answer to that question was no would you then be happy that every single passenger that refused to travel due to lack of toilet was offered compensation as if the train was cancelled .
I think any passenger that does not make their journey due to lack of toilets on the uni should be entitled to compensation . what do you think about that Moonshot ?
 
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Whistler40145

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I've been on AMTRAK from Chicago & one toilet in the whole train was defective & state law won't allow the train to depart without any working toilets, we were delayed for 3 hours until the defective toilet was fixed!

Could you imagine that happening here?
 

trainophile

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So if ten people, when asked, say they would use a toilet break, and the guard gives them ten minutes, what happens if the first two people take five minutes each?

If they are warned that the train will leave after ten minutes, then presumably they have to take all their luggage with them in case they can't make it back in time. That causes further delay and confusion, e.g. if their suitcase is at the bottom of the heap.

Would the guard count people off and back on, or is it just hard luck if they miss the train?

As for expecting people to cope with a four or five or even six hour journey without a working toilet or the opportunity to use one en route, this is bordering on a human rights issue.

Pointless being in First Class on TPE - you wouldn't dare accept a drink, and that's about all you get anyway.

I find Southport to Chester (via Moorfields, where you have to ascend to the entrance hall to use the one-per-gender loo, and miss your connection in doing so) quite long enough without facilities. Quickest way to have people fainting from dehydration if they daren't have a drink, then you'd have the "due to a passenger taken ill" delays.
 

Whistler40145

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Without being too rude, bursting for a pee is one thing, but needing a sit down session is a different matter, especially if you've got a bad stomach!
 

fowler9

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Moonshoot sometimes I honestly think that you presume that the passengers/customers exist to provide a dividend and not that the railways/company exist to provide a service to the people that use them and that happens to be how they try and make money.
 
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So if ten people, when asked, say they would use a toilet break, and the guard gives them ten minutes, what happens if the first two people take five minutes each?

If they are warned that the train will leave after ten minutes, then presumably they have to take all their luggage with them in case they can't make it back in time. That causes further delay and confusion, e.g. if their suitcase is at the bottom of the heap.

Would the guard count people off and back on, or is it just hard luck if they miss the train?

What happens if 11 people need the toilet but the toilets only have 5 cubicles? Should the guard allow the over 5 to pop to Upper Crust to get some Salt & Vinegar crisps? That would then only leave the other 6 people 3 minutes to do their poo before they have to be back on the train. What if the others need to use the cashpoint?
 

dannypye9999

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I actually think it should be against the law to run a train service with no working toilets, for many reasons including the right for a passenger to travel in comfort. If a train isn't going to have toilets and its scheduled to run over a certain vast distance then it should be a legal requirement to have it cancelled.
 
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