Unavailability of toilets on TPE

[northwichcat]

I've noticed TPE have got a diagram today which is using a train with no working toilets. It's running Liverpool-Scarborough services until later on when it switches to a Liverpool-Newcastle service. The advice given is "Passengers are advised to use facilities at the station before boarding this this service." That's all very well but at some stations they call at they have no toilet facilities. Should they be trying to arrange an extended call at Leeds to allow passengers making longer journeys to use the station facilities there?

 

[Moonshot]

I've noticed TPE have got a diagram today which is using a train with no working toilets. It's running Liverpool-Scarborough services until later on when it switches to a Liverpool-Newcastle service. The advice given is "Passengers are advised to use facilities at the station before boarding this this service." That's all very well but at some stations they call at they have no toilet facilities. Should they be trying to arrange an extended call at Leeds to allow passengers making longer journeys to use the station facilities there?

How long do you think this extended call should be? And what would be the likely impact on other services ?

 

[dave87016]

whenever I need a toilet when I am on a train and they are out of order I Break My Journey even though its not allowed although its unlikely they will all be out of order on the longer distance trains which use stock like pendos. voyagers etc

 

[bb21]

Should they be trying to arrange an extended call at Leeds to allow passengers making longer journeys to use the station facilities there?

No.

I am sure if someone is desperate and explains to the guard, the guard would use his discretion to allow him to use the next available station facilities, and endorse his ticket for travel on a later service if needed.

 

[northwichcat]

whenever I need a toilet when I am on a train and they are out of order I Break My Journey even though its not allowed although its unlikely they will all be out of order on the longer distance trains which use stock like pendos. voyagers etc

Well TPE are providing services of around 3 hours in length using a train with no working toilets, that's longer than a number of Virgin's Pendolino services.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've noticed TPE have got a diagram today which is using a train with no working toilets. It's running Liverpool-Scarborough services until later on when it switches to a Liverpool-Newcastle service. The advice given is "Passengers are advised to use facilities at the station before boarding this this service." That's all very well but at some stations they call at they have no toilet facilities. Should they be trying to arrange an extended call at Leeds to allow passengers making longer journeys to use the station facilities there?

It's not ever going to be possible to allow extended stops at Leeds for this type of thing. Don't forget that between Stalybridge & Micklefield there are 5 TPE services per hour, plus the other Northern / XCountry services running the same route. As it stands TPE services can sometimes start to stack up at Leeds if one starts to fall behind, so any slack there is in the current timetables can easily get eaten up. Plus the only through platforms that have toilets located directly on them are 8,12 & 15. As the TPEs tend to use 15 Eastbound & 16 Westbound, you'd have a mad rush over the bridge on the Westbound services, and at peak times platform 16 can get pretty hectic.

I've been on TPEs in the past where at least 1 of the two toilets per 185 set have failed, and so generally I've tried to avoid the need for the toilets in the first place, or failing that (and not having a restricted ticket) broken the journey up. But to be fair, it doesn't happen all that often & at least they've given warning of the problem.

 

[table38]

I have been on TPE services which have had an extended toilet stop at York, usually on Platform 9 which is, err.. "convenient" for the toilets

Although I was on a service recently when they did an entire set swap at York. Not sure if that was toilet-related.

 

[cf111]

I've been on ScotRail services which have made extended stops at stations on the Highland Mainline due to no working toilets on board. It's up to the Guard's discretion I would assume and the line is quieter.

 

[Moonshot]

I've noticed TPE have got a diagram today which is using a train with no working toilets. It's running Liverpool-Scarborough services until later on when it switches to a Liverpool-Newcastle service. The advice given is "Passengers are advised to use facilities at the station before boarding this this service." That's all very well but at some stations they call at they have no toilet facilities. Should they be trying to arrange an extended call at Leeds to allow passengers making longer journeys to use the station facilities there?

So lets use a bit of railway terminology and assess this situation. TPE service pulls into Leeds with a malfunctioning toilet, so lets allow 5 minutes walking time to the loos, 20 mins PNB, and 5 minutes walking back. So delay a train for 30 mins .......and now we are into delay repay territory. What other risks could be imported in this situation? Well the toilets in the concourse are certainly wrong side of barriers, so if such a person was to forget their ticket and leave it on train they would have course have to come back for it. But what if they didnt and were insisting they were let through barriers without the ticket, doesnt that potentially compromise Condition 3 of the NRCOC?

So as we can see ., all sorts of reasons why this is not a good idea , as pointed out by other posters. Of course TPE have mitigated this by already stating that the service has out of use loos anyway.

 

[Gemz91]

So lets use a bit of railway terminology and assess this situation. TPE service pulls into Leeds with a malfunctioning toilet, so lets allow 5 minutes walking time to the loos, 20 mins PNB, and 5 minutes walking back. So delay a train for 30 mins .......and now we are into delay repay territory. What other risks could be imported in this situation? Well the toilets in the concourse are certainly wrong side of barriers, so if such a person was to forget their ticket and leave it on train they would have course have to come back for it. But what if they didnt and were insisting they were let through barriers without the ticket, doesnt that potentially compromise Condition 3 of the NRCOC?

So as we can see ., all sorts of reasons why this is not a good idea , as pointed out by other posters. Of course TPE have mitigated this by already stating that the service has out of use loos anyway.

And what if the guard needs the toilet on the way? Are they entitled to a toilet break or is it tough luck? Bearing in mind its summer, so the guard would be drinking more water then normalto keep hydrated, I'm sure he'd go to the toilet before departing, but what if he is caught short?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

While others make sensible suggestions about breaking journeys, asking for tickets to be endorsed etc, I'm very much afraid to say my puerile brain instantly went into possible abbreviations mode:

Toilet Perusal Embargo
Trousers/Pants Emergency
and so on (the others were worse).

On that subject, today's Weegie word = tollie.

(Sorry)

 

[Moonshot]

And what if the guard needs the toilet on the way? Are they entitled to a toilet break or is it tough luck? Bearing in mind its summer, so the guard would be drinking more water then normalto keep hydrated, I'm sure he'd go to the toilet before departing, but what if he is caught short?

trains fitted with droplights in the cab are very useful

 

[David Barrett]

Wouldn't it be a good idea if the toilets on the trains were, as part of the franchise entanglement, to be presented in a serviceable condition anyway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

trains fitted with droplights in the cab are very useful

I'm certian that the female guards might not see this point too well.

 

[Moonshot]

While others make sensible suggestions about breaking journeys, asking for tickets to be endorsed etc, I'm very much afraid to say my puerile brain instantly went into possible abbreviations mode:

Toilet Perusal Embargo
Trousers/Pants Emergency
and so on (the others were worse).

On that subject, today's Weegie word = tollie.

(Sorry)

Try Peeing Elsewhere sprung to my mind !!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wouldn't it be a good idea if the toilets on the trains were, as part of the franchise entanglement, to be presented in a serviceable condition anyway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm certian that the female guards might not see this point too well.

At this point I d love to recite a story about that , but I fear it may break forum rules

 

[northwichcat]

So lets use a bit of railway terminology and assess this situation. TPE service pulls into Leeds with a malfunctioning toilet, so lets allow 5 minutes walking time to the loos, 20 mins PNB, and 5 minutes walking back. So delay a train for 30 mins .......and now we are into delay repay territory. What other risks could be imported in this situation? Well the toilets in the concourse are certainly wrong side of barriers, so if such a person was to forget their ticket and leave it on train they would have course have to come back for it. But what if they didnt and were insisting they were let through barriers without the ticket, doesnt that potentially compromise Condition 3 of the NRCOC?

So as we can see ., all sorts of reasons why this is not a good idea , as pointed out by other posters. Of course TPE have mitigated this by already stating that the service has out of use loos anyway.

Leeds stations has toilets on both sides of the barriers. Who takes 20 minutes to use the toilet?

I'm asking whether TPE should do something which other long distance operators do on occasions. I'm not coming up with a proposal for a new idea.

TPE have put the information on their Journey Check site but it doesn't mean all passengers are aware of it before boarding.

 

[Moonshot]

Leeds stations has toilets on both sides of the barriers. Who takes 20 minutes to use the toilet?

I'm asking whether TPE should do something which other long distance operators do on occasions. I'm not coming up with a proposal for a new idea.

TPE have put the information on their Journey Check site but it doesn't mean all passengers are aware of it before boarding.

I did state in my post ( in case you havent read , or more likely understood it ) that i was using railway terminology. A PNB is what we call a Personal Needs Break. My aunty once took 22 minutes to use the toilet 8 years ago in Leeds railway station.

So if passengers arent aware of toliet faults because of the fact they havent accessed the journey check site , do you think that they should phone every passenger prior to boarding and tell them there is a toliet fault? You dont come up with a proposal to for a new idea, but maybe I can because I can think outside the box a bit better than most......maybe TPE should highlight this issue on departure information systems at the station ? In much the same way as they state trains are running late etc? Or telling customers that their train is the front 3 coaches on any particular platform ?

Seems like a fair idea to me if its not already actioned.

 

[Emyr]

Someone who's been in need of the loo for 2 hours might well need 20 minutes to recover.

 

[bb21]

Leeds stations has toilets on both sides of the barriers. Who takes 20 minutes to use the toilet?

The guy on my train back from Worcester Shrub Hill on Sunday did.

He jumped into the toilet as soon as the inbound service arrived (about 1815), and remained there when I got off at Droitwich Spa (1835). Mind you, I don't think he's in there to use the toilet.

I'm asking whether TPE should do something which other long distance operators do on occasions. I'm not coming up with a proposal for a new idea.

What do other operators do?

TPE have put the information on their Journey Check site but it doesn't mean all passengers are aware of it before boarding.

Information provision could probably be improved, although it won't cover all bases, especially if someone arrives at the station last-minute.

 

[GatwickDepress]

For altering CIS boards at stations, there should be a "there are no toilet facilities on this service" option when altering them. Southern and FCC have, in my experience, been very good at updating their boards following unit toilet lockouts.

 

[starrymarkb]

Wouldn't it be a good idea if the toilets on the trains were, as part of the franchise entanglement, to be presented in a serviceable condition anyway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm certian that the female guards might not see this point too well.

Could use a SheWee

 

[Moonshot]

The guy on my train back from Worcester Shrub Hill on Sunday did.

He jumped into the toilet as soon as the inbound service arrived (about 1815), and remained there when I got off at Droitwich Spa (1835).

i wonder if he had a ticket
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For altering CIS boards at stations, there should be a "there are no toilet facilities on this service" option when altering them. Southern and FCC have, in my experience, been very good at updating their boards following unit toilet lockouts.

Ah right so that option does exist anyway.

Problem solved.

 

[bb21]

i wonder if he had a ticket

I needed the toilet too after visiting a pub not long before so was quite hacked off by that. Not helped by the fact that Shrub Hill had no facilities on site.

I did alert the guard to it as I got off who had only made his way down half of the train up to that point. Shame I couldn't stay onboard longer to find out.

Though I probably did give him a few frights knocking on the door at regular intervals.

 

[Dunc108]

Who takes 20 minutes to use the toilet?

Might depend on what they need to do when they get there!

 

[Moonshot]

I needed the toilet too after visiting a pub not long before so was quite hacked off by that. Not helped by the fact that Shrub Hill had no facilities on site.

I did alert the guard to it as I got off who had only made his way down half of the train up to that point. Shame I couldn't stay onboard longer to find out.

Though I probably did give him a few frights knocking on the door at regular intervals.

Its a shame trains are not pee powered, we would never have any danger of running out of fuel on a friday or saturday night

 

[LowLevel]

I've organised a toilet stop before when necessary - it's at my discretion as the guard and it's up to my judgement to choose an appropriate location using my route knowledge. In this case I told my driver first, then rang the signaller so they didn't drop the crossing barriers until we were ready and then told control - who in these situations do not generally question your decision.

 

[fowler9]

What a crazy situation. This isn't the unit that was on the service calling at South Parkway at 18:49 last night heading to Lime Street is it? At least the disabled access toilet was locked out of use. On another thread it is being said that these services need first class as it is inter city.... but they don't need toilets. I remember the bad old days of BR when most of the coaches on a trans pennine service had 2 toilets, not the entire train.

 

[Iskra]

I've been on a Manchester-Scotland TPE service before with no functioning toilets. There were stag do's on board getting wasted. The guard made the sensible decision to allow a 10 minute toilet stop at Preston.

This is what happens when an operator uses unsuitable stock on long-distance and busy routes. I feel sorry for the frontline staff who get it in the neck due to incompetence from higher up or the DfT.

 

[Moonshot]

I've been on a Manchester-Scotland TPE service before with no functioning toilets. There were stag do's on board getting wasted. The guard made the sensible decision to allow a 10 minute toilet stop at Preston.

This is what happens when an operator uses unsuitable stock on long-distance and busy routes. I feel sorry for the frontline staff who get it in the neck due to incompetence from higher up or the DfT.

Are you saying that there is rolling stock in the UK ( or indeed the world ) which has 100% availabilty of toilet facilties ? ?

 

[theblackwatch]

I recall being on a Southern service once from Brighton or Eastbourne to Victoria and it had an extended toilet stop at Haywards Heath owing to there being no toilets in use on the *8 car* Class 377 - and that journey was nowhere near as long as some of the TPE runs mentioned here. I was a bit miffed myself as all I wanted to do was get back to London, not have a 10 minute delay!

Slightly off-topic, but I remember back in about 1992/93, Tyseley used its Class 117 units, which had been reformed as 'all power car' sets a few months earlier (ie with the toielt fitted centre cars removed, so they could keep to EMU timings on the Cross City line), on Summer Saturday workings to Skegness from the Midlands. Obviously, BR management weren't clued up enough to think how all the families with young children would manage on a long journey to the seaside and back... Suffice to say, apparently the brake van found some other use, and after the first couple of weeks, the centre cars would be put back into the units for the weekend!

 

[DarloRich]

No.

I am sure if someone is desperate and explains to the guard, the guard would use his discretion to allow him to use the next available station facilities, and endorse his ticket for travel on a later service if needed.

How long do you think this extended call should be? And what would be the likely impact on other services ?

Should they be trying to arrange an extended call at Leeds to allow passengers making longer journeys to use the station facilities there?

London Midland have done so in the past when both of their train toilets have gone U/S. They stop for about 5 minutes extra at somewhere like Stafford or Northampton