Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[deltic08]

Somewhere in the USA is a sculpture of Cadillacs set in concrete on end. Alternately, put them on a beach north of Liverpool Anthony Gormley-like where donkeys are normally seen.

 

[DJH1971]

Somewhere in the USA is a sculpture of Cadillacs set in concrete on end. Alternately, put them on a beach north of Liverpool Anthony Gormley-like where donkeys are normally seen.

Now, there's a thought!

 

[Philip C]

Somewhere in the USA is a sculpture of Cadillacs set in concrete on end. Alternately, put them on a beach north of Liverpool Anthony Gormley-like where donkeys are normally seen.

Yes, Carhenge near Alliance Nebraska. Rather than fail to load my own photos I'll simply suggest that you look it up on Google.

On the main theme, life has taught me that change always brings a downside and that as I grow older those downsides seem to matter more. The result of this is that I know that the day will come when nostalgia will embrace even the humble Pacer. That's assuming they predecease me!

 

[Grumpy]

And we can go round and round in circles again and again on this subject.

Deemed not good enough for London Commuters on Thameslink, but deemed suitable enough for London Commuters on the Great Western?

Having travelled on a few of FCCs refurbished 319/3s last week, there's little that's unsuitable about them

They aren't suitable for GW either. Since the original cascading proposals, it has been confirmed that Crossrail is basically taking over the Paddington-Reading locals. That leaves mainly an outer suburban need which will be best served by units that are capable of mixing on the fast lines with the High Speed services. The 319's wont be fast enough-GW needs some higher speed stock.

In the current proposals the 319's would be used in the North on day round services, 7 days/week. Meanwhile Southern are being equipped with new units (377's) many of which really only needed for one up and one down train m/f. Even when Thameslink is equipped with its shiny new Siemens units there will still be a need for some 4 car EMU's to trundle around the Southern purely to bolster the m/f peak hour services.

The staff, both operational and technical are already familiar with the 319's. Wouldn't it make more sense, from a national perspective, to use the old stock on low mileage diagrams where they are known, rather than have brand new aircon stock parked in sidings most of the week whilst elderly, less comfortable, less energy efficient, units are being thrashed up and down all day 7 days a week.

So leave the 319's with Southern and transfer 377's to Northern.

 

[HSTEd]

That means you have some 377s with TSGN and Some with Northern.

That gives you three fleets instead of two.
Sending the full 86 unit fleet to Northern gives them a large homogenous fleet of units that are known to be reliable.

Essentially (on electric services) stock limitations dissapear completely.

 

[PDG1949]

Now, there's a thought!

Well this is just down the road from there......http://www.freshfieldsrescue.org.uk/animals

Says they have aoiund 30 horses and ponies so guess they could take a few noddin' donkeys ?

 

[Starmill]

You can have Class 319s or you can have nothing.

Us and You is it!!!!

 

[IanXC]

Sending the full 86 unit fleet to Northern gives them a large homogenous fleet of units that are known to be reliable.

Essentially (on electric services) stock limitations dissapear completely.

I think a significant amount of further electrification would be required for Northern to gainfully employ 86 319s!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I think a significant amount of further electrification would be required for Northern to gainfully employ 86 319s!

?

Windermere - Stalyvegas
Liverpool - Airport
Liverpool - Blackpool
Blackpool - Airport
Stalyvegas - Clitheroe
Wigan - Rochdale
Chester - Rochdale

Double sets on most services and off-peak cleaning; not far off 86?

 

[deltic08]

If the North was getting fully refurbed 319s as promised, there would be no issue, but the Government/DfT attitude that we will tolerate 30 year old cast-offs because we are less well off and wear cloth caps is both insulting and extremely irritating.

If we have to mop up 86 units then at least we will get more electrification

 

[petersi]

If the North was getting fully refurbed 319s as promised, there would be no issue, but the Government/DfT attitude that we will tolerate 30 year old cast-offs because we are less well off and wear cloth caps is both insulting and extremely irritating.

If we have to mop up 86 units then at least we will get more electrification

There 86 319 to be cascaded. They may also be cascaded dc third rail units

see
tender doc page 76

The AC untis to be cascaded could include
12 317/1
13 321
40 365 (unlikely been refitted)

Just the total AC units 328 I would imagine they will want to loss 317 and 321 at part of the AC cascade so some 319's can count against the DC cascade they need to do.

 

[Manchester77]

?

Windermere - Stalyvegas
Liverpool - Airport
Liverpool - Blackpool
Blackpool - Airport
Stalyvegas - Clitheroe
Wigan - Rochdale
Chester - Rochdale

Double sets on most services and off-peak cleaning; not far off 86?

The airport to Blackpool service is unlikely the be operated by 319s long term since it's a TPE service and so is earmarked for 387s. I don't think many platforms are able to facilitate 160m long trains. It's likely that the 319s will be split between us up North and the Thames Valley branches.

If the North was getting fully refurbed 319s as promised, there would be no issue, but the Government/DfT attitude that we will tolerate 30 year old cast-offs because we are less well off and wear cloth caps is both insulting and extremely irritating.
If we have to mop up 86 units then at least we will get more electrification

It's better that we get some kind of EMUs to operate our new wires than wait for months for the units to be refurbished. When they arrive at West Allerton TMD they will be refreshed and deep cleaned which is all the DfT will allow in the direct award.

 

[Grumpy]

There 86 319 to be cascaded. They may also be cascaded dc third rail units

Just the total AC units 328 I would imagine they will want to loss 317 and 321 at part of the AC cascade so some 319's can count against the DC cascade they need to do.

Yes, whichever way you play it there are going to be substantial numbers of units available. But not suitable for use in the London area of course. You might have thought some could be used on such as GOBLIN, but no, Boris can buy shiny new units. Good job the Government's flush with cash and can afford to buy new rather than make best use of existing.

Ignoring Mr Locke's smileys I cant see Northern needing more than 20 odd sets for what has currently been authorised. Even if you shuffled the remaining 323's to LM to allow for their growth you still don't need more than half the sets.

I cant understand the logic of anyone who thinks it better to deploy old units on services where they will be used all day , seven days/week, whilst more modern, energy efficient, cheaper to maintain, more passenger attractive units are being deployed on services where they wont be needed for much more than 10 hours/week. It cant be the best use of the Taxpayers money.

 

[IanXC]

The airport to Blackpool service is unlikely the be operated by 319s long term since it's a TPE service and so is earmarked for 387s. I don't think many platforms are able to facilitate 160m long trains. It's likely that the 319s will be split between us up North and the Thames Valley branches.

I'm not sure we really have anything to go on to say that Blackpool will continue to be a TPE service, or that 387s are "earmarked" for TPE. In many ways 387s, with the 110mph capability would be more suited to GW.

 

[Manchester77]

I'm not sure we really have anything to go on to say that Blackpool will continue to be a TPE service, or that 387s are "earmarked" for TPE. In many ways 387s, with the 110mph capability would be more suited to GW.

While it's not set in concrete Tony Miles on a separate site reported that the DfT had earmarked the 387s for TPE and reported how it may be necessary for Blackpool TPE services to begin with 319s but switch to the newer trains when they become available. That's what I was going off however it may be incorrect.

 

[Grumpy]

Quite.

/

And why are northern MPs and Northern Rail itself shouting from the rooftops about it ?

I think you meant "aren't".

The fundamental problem is that most of the MP's have no affinity with the area. Most of them are carpet baggers who owe their seats to having been forced in by the London leaderships, and that is where their loyalties lie, not to their constituents. "The North" is somewhere they have to show up at election times and as little as they can get away with in-between.
Thus for example none of the Leeds MP's comes from Yorkshire. Add in the likes of Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper, Mary Creagh, Ed Milliband etc and you can see why local issues don't get much priority. Basically they have no personal commitment and when they lose their seats they will stay in their London homes where their friends and families are.

 

[Starmill]

The airport to Blackpool service is unlikely the be operated by 319s long term since it's a TPE service and so is earmarked for 387s. I don't think many platforms are able to facilitate 160m long trains. It's likely that the 319s will be split between us up North and the Thames Valley branches.

Does anyone actually know what is going to happen to the 387s? I'm hearing a lot of random uses for them. I suspect it's still somewhat up in the air, no?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my basic understanding of it is that they were ordered with the mindset that something; perhaps anything, was needed
quickly because of the ridiculous and extensive delay to the 700 order to plug the gap. Nobody seems to know what to do with them after that...

"Oh we'll send them to TransPennine" and "Oh they can do the Corby services" when they are were hardly build with that sort of work in mind.

It's better that we get some kind of EMUs to operate our new wires than wait for months for the units to be refurbished. When they arrive at West Allerton TMD they will be refreshed and deep cleaned which is all the DfT will allow in the direct award.

Re your last sentence: there was never any doubt that it is the London-based DfT who deserve all of the flak for this frankly disrespectful shambles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you meant "aren't".

The fundamental problem is that most of the MP's have no affinity with the area. Most of them are carpet baggers who owe their seats to having been forced in by the London leaderships, and that is where their loyalties lie, not to their constituents. "The North" is somewhere they have to show up at election times and as little as they can get away with in-between.
Thus for example none of the Leeds MP's comes from Yorkshire. Add in the likes of Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper, Mary Creagh, Ed Milliband etc and you can see why local issues don't get much priority. Basically they have no personal commitment and when they lose their seats they will stay in their London homes where their friends and families are.

I'm withholding action until I see them, but when I have my first ride (and you can be damn sure that will be soon after they begin service) if I find what I see to be well below standard I will be letting mine know (John Leech). Not that I have any expectation that anything will come of it - nor indeed him after the election He was Chairman of the All-Parliamentary Light Rail Group though and used to be a Transport Spokesman.

 

[Manchester77]

Does anyone actually know what is going to happen to the 387s? I'm hearing a lot of random uses for them. I suspect it's still somewhat up in the air, no?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my basic understanding of it is that they were ordered with the mindset that something; perhaps anything, was needed
quickly because of the ridiculous and extensive delay to the 700 order to plug the gap. Nobody seems to know what to do with them after that...

"Oh we'll send them to TransPennine" and "Oh they can do the Corby services" when they are were hardly build with that sort of work in mind.

There are rough ideas based on stuff which has come out of the DfT and where EMUs are required. The 387s were ordered to allow 319s to be released sooner than they would if we had to wait for the 700s. They were basically ordered for cascade purposes as a stop gap as you say. The 110 mph capability allows them to be suited to a number of workings which they otherwise wouldn't be able to operate.

Re your last sentence: there was never any doubt that it is the London-based DfT who deserve all of the flak for this frankly disrespectful shambles.

It's all because of their cock up of the ICWC franchising process and this is the fall out were still receiving some two years later.

 

[Darren R]

?

Windermere - Stalyvegas
Liverpool - Airport
Liverpool - Blackpool
Blackpool - Airport
Stalyvegas - Clitheroe
Wigan - Rochdale
Chester - Rochdale

Double sets on most services and off-peak cleaning; not far off 86?

When I'm Prime Minister there is a job for you as my Transport Secretary!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apart from the first 14 319s already agreed, the fleets for the 2016 NT/TP franchises will be left to the bidders to propose. The ITT is supposed to be issued in December this year.
The DfT will then choose the best "value for money" proposal (bearing in mind the subsidy required).
In the short term Northern can only work with what they have been given in the direct award.

 

[Olaf]

If the North was getting fully refurbed 319s as promised ...

There was no commitment to refurbish the stock, that will now be ow to the next franchisee.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... all because of their cock up of the ICWC franchising process and this is the fall out were still receiving some two years later.

It's more to do with Bombardier's apparent inability to deliver a fully working product on time than a direct consequence of ineffective Public Sector bureaucratic incompetence.

That is nothing new, but this time around Bombardier could point to the collapse of a number of their suppliers being partially to blame.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With regard to all the childish belly-aching about rolling stock allocations to northern services perhaps if the actual users of those services paid a more substantial portion of the operational costs as part of their rail fares, as 'southerners' do, then they to might get new vehicles directly allocated.

 

[swt_passenger]

There was no commitment to refurbish the stock, that will now be ow to the next franchisee.

Time moves on, but the wording in the original Adonis "Britain’s Transport Infrastructure Rail Electrification" paper included this:

[Great Western]
45. It will then be possible to transfer the current Thameslink four-carriage
electric trains onto the Great Western Main Line, replacing the current
three-carriage diesel trains. These 100 mph vehicles will be completely
modernised, including the installation of air-conditioning, and will offer
quieter journeys and additional capacity. It is planned that suburban
services between Oxford, Reading and London will be operated with
such vehicles from the end of 2016

[NW Regional]
68. Completion of the second phase between Newton-le-Willows and Liverpool
will provide a fully electrified route between Liverpool and Manchester.
Like the Thames Valley suburban services on the Great Western Main Line,
regional services will be operated from 2013 by four-carriage electric trains
transferred from the cross-London Thameslink route. These trains will be
completely modernised before they are transferred, including the installation
of air conditioning.

http://collections.europarchive.org...t.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/rail-electrification.pdf

It seems to have been written as a DfT statement of intention at that time...

 

[Manchester77]

There was no commitment to refurbish the stock, that will now be ow to the next franchisee.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes there was see below.

It's more to do with Bombardier's apparent inability to deliver a fully working product on time than a direct consequence of ineffective Public Sector bureaucratic incompetence.

I wasn't referring to the delay I was referring to Northern being unable to refurbish the 319s before they arrive, had ICWC not have been messed up the would be a new northern franchise in place now where the 319s could be refurbished however we've got a direct award which more focused on reducing subsidy.

With regard to all the childish belly-aching about rolling stock allocations to northern services perhaps if the actual users of those services paid a more substantial portion of the operational costs as part of their rail fares, as 'southerners' do, then they to might get new vehicles directly allocated.

:roll: not seen this 'argument' come up in a while(!) Firstly if TfGM, WYPTE, MerseyTravel - any local authority - want to subsidise rail fares then that's fine since it encourages more people to travel since fares are cheap which is a good thing. When you go out of a PTE area fares will shoot up so it's not like Northern have low fares it's just in the PTE subsidised areas. Secondly the whole business case for the electrification of the North western triangle was based on the use of cascaded Thameslink units.

Also I've never understood why people use this argument since the subsidy will pay for part of the price and the user will pay the other part so care to explain your logic?

 

[dysonsphere]

I think you meant "aren't".

The fundamental problem is that most of the MP's have no affinity with the area. Most of them are carpet baggers who owe their seats to having been forced in by the London leaderships, and that is where their loyalties lie, not to their constituents. "The North" is somewhere they have to show up at election times and as little as they can get away with in-between.
Thus for example none of the Leeds MP's comes from Yorkshire. Add in the likes of Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper, Mary Creagh, Ed Milliband etc and you can see why local issues don't get much priority. Basically they have no personal commitment and when they lose their seats they will stay in their London homes where their friends and families are.

Which it what happens when you move from an amatauer set of MP's to what we have now which are full time polations who have never had a real job in there lives, straight from student union to local council to hanger on then into a safe seat. Which is why we have the shambles now called a goverment so out of touch they dont even know that they are out of touch.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

When I'm Prime Minister there is a job for you as my Transport Secretary!

I resign. I enjoy delivering things too much to sit playing at train sets.

 

[HSTEd]

Us and You is it!!!!

Well it appears that is how everyone else is treating it.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I resign. I enjoy delivering things too much to sit playing at train sets.

Brilliant!

 

[muddythefish]

I think you meant "aren't".

The fundamental problem is that most of the MP's have no affinity with the area. Most of them are carpet baggers who owe their seats to having been forced in by the London leaderships, and that is where their loyalties lie, not to their constituents. "The North" is somewhere they have to show up at election times and as little as they can get away with in-between.
Thus for example none of the Leeds MP's comes from Yorkshire. Add in the likes of Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper, Mary Creagh, Ed Milliband etc and you can see why local issues don't get much priority. Basically they have no personal commitment and when they lose their seats they will stay in their London homes where their friends and families are.

All very true which is why in order to help rebalance the economy govt departments need to be moved away from London (followed ultimately by parliament). I can't imagine that a DfT mandarin would put up with commuting from the Ribble Valley to Manchester on a 153 or Pacer for very long.

 

[Starmill]

With regard to all the childish belly-aching about rolling stock allocations to northern services perhaps if the actual users of those services paid a more substantial portion of the operational costs as part of their rail fares, as 'southerners' do, then they to might get new vehicles directly allocated.

This attitude ****es me off immensely. Do you think all fares around here are good value?

Have you seen how much it is from Leeds to York? It's only 25 miles. Or any of the fares to or from Hull or Scarborough.

Leeds to Liverpool? Doncaster to York? Crewe to Preston? All of these are shocking poor value per mile.

Harrogate to York is only 20 miles it doesn't have many trains and all of them are in a pretty horrible condition (unless a 158 turns up) it's still nearly £10.

 

[ianhr]

This attitude ****es me off immensely. Do you think all fares around here are good value?

Have you seen how much it is from Leeds to York? It's only 25 miles. Or any of the fares to or from Hull or Scarborough.

Leeds to Liverpool? Doncaster to York? Crewe to Preston? All of these are shocking poor value per mile.

Harrogate to York is only 20 miles it doesn't have many trains and all of them are in a pretty horrible condition (unless a 158 turns up) it's still nearly £10.

Agreed! I think another classic is Marsden-Greenfield, and in this case both stations are in PTE subsidised zones but because they are different authorities, who do not talk to each other, Northern charge their standard rip off non regulated fare. However I think TPE are probably the worst for charging maximum fares for a very inferior service. After all the 185s are really only suburban trains with standard class passengers crammed into 2 cars so that they can pretend that it is inter-city by providing 1st class. Who in their right mind would travel from Liverpool to Newcastle with them when you can change at York onto a comfortable full service EC train?