Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[8A Rail]

Just a quickie, a few masts have now appeared around the Whiston Station area.

Just visited Whiston Station and noted the following on quick observation. Two masts in place between west of station and Ropers Bridge. Approx what looks like 8 masts, west of Greenes Road heading towards Huyton Quarry. Between east of station and Cumber Lane Bridge, at least 12 masts have appeared. Looking beyond the latter bridge, towards Stoney Lane Bridge, Rainhill, there seems to be some masts in place. These certainly have all appeared since last week - progress and welcomed on one hand but sad on the other hand, seeing some photo locations sadly disappearing!

 

[deltic08]

Does anyone out there have up-to-date information on class 319 transfers to Northern. I understood three units were moving in May with delivery of final 377/7s?

 

[PDG1949]

Does anyone out there have up-to-date information on class 319 transfers to Northern. I understood three units were moving in May with delivery of final 377/7s?

I was talking to one of the Signallers from Wigan Wallgate the other day and he gave me to understand they were now expected in June.

 

[muddythefish]

I was talking to one of the Signallers from Wigan Wallgate the other day and he gave me to understand they were now expected in June.

It's appalling really - nearly 30-year-old units in dire need of refurbishment inflicted on the north because the south is getting brand new units.

And everyone just shrugs their shoulders and accepts it.

 

[DJH1971]

Does anyone out there have up-to-date information on class 319 transfers to Northern. I understood three units were moving in May with delivery of final 377/7s?

I heard that the first 319 to come up North is expected at the beginning of June (the next few day /weeks in other words) and will be stationed at Allerton.

Obviously, as the lines between Wavertree to Earlestown and Wigan isn't yet wired, my guess is that it will be used on driver training between Crewe to Preston and Crewe to Liverpool and Manchester.

 

[Llama]

Driver training will be done at Allerton depot, not necessarily out in service, and no Liverpool Northern drivers sign Crewe.

 

[Elecman]

The rakes reffered to are earthprotection incase theATS feeder cable breaks.
The new site at Ince Moss is an ATS for WCML upgrade.

 

[Starmill]

It's appalling really - nearly 30-year-old units in dire need of refurbishment inflicted on the north because the south is getting brand new units.

And everyone just shrugs their shoulders and accepts it.

It's thoroughly infuriating.

But this forum is full of people who will go on about how lots of electrification projects don't get purpose-built stock and we should consider ourselves lucky to have the extra capacity and so on, while failing to understand that the experience offered by rail and the overall attitude to it that people have is just as important a determinant of its usage than the actual services/prices offered.

TfL aren't wrong that 'every journey matters' but nobody round here seems to have realised that yet.

 

[The Planner]

Northern have requested clearance to run Liverpool to Crewe, Crewe Preston and Manchester Stoke but Liverpool Crewe was specifically for driver training runs.

 

[Llama]

God knows how they will release people to route-learn that.

 

[Taunton]

It's appalling really - nearly 30-year-old units in dire need of refurbishment inflicted on the north because the south is getting brand new units.

And everyone just shrugs their shoulders and accepts it.

Look, we have had these thoroughly unsatisfactory units inflicted upon us here for all that time. Their internal layout, with narrow doorways and partitions, is completely unsuited to carrying passengers with significant amounts of baggage from Gatwick Airport up to London, where Thameslink provides access to many useful central points like London Bridge or Kings Cross, mixed in with passenger heavy loads from Brighton and East Croydon, and with Thameslink's propensity to run minimum 4-car trains on busy services.

So after a generation of all this, maybe others can take their share of the unsuitability.

 

[muddythefish]

Look, we have had these thoroughly unsatisfactory units inflicted upon us here for all that time. Their internal layout, with narrow doorways and partitions, is completely unsuited to carrying passengers with significant amounts of baggage from Gatwick Airport up to London, where Thameslink provides access to many useful central points like London Bridge or Kings Cross, mixed in with passenger heavy loads from Brighton and East Croydon, and with Thameslink's propensity to run minimum 4-car trains on busy services.

So after a generation of all this, maybe others can take their share of the unsuitability.

Thanks very much.

After 30 years of riding Pacers around the north I don't think you have much to complain about.

 

[ianhr]

Well even the 319s will be an improvement on Pacers, 150s and 156s. When the 308s came to West Yorks in the 1990s people thought they were new trains!

I find it more worrying that the rate at which they are being transferred is so slow....only 2 units by Dec 14! Also the rather leisurely pace of the wiring project but perhaps that's not surprising if there is no stock to use it. Why is the Wigan route progressing faster than the Earlestown route if the first electric trains are to be Liverpool-MIA, and why have no contracts been let to wire Manchester-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool?

 

[Wavertreelad]

Well even the 319s will be an improvement on Pacers, 150s and 156s. When the 308s came to West Yorks in the 1990s people thought they were new trains!

I find it more worrying that the rate at which they are being transferred is so slow....only 2 units by Dec 14! Also the rather leisurely pace of the wiring project but perhaps that's not surprising if there is no stock to use it. Why is the Wigan route progressing faster than the Earlestown route if the first electric trains are to be Liverpool-MIA, and why have no contracts been let to wire Manchester-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool?

From 5 to 13 July 2014 inclusive, there will be no passenger services between Edge Hill, Huyton and St. Helens Central and between Huyton / St. Helens Junction / Earlestown due to the connection of the new junctions at Huyton and to the west of Roby, for the reinstated third track. Presumably, this will also give the OHLE teams a chance to catch up if necessary.

 

[kevconnor]

Look, we have had these thoroughly unsatisfactory units inflicted upon us here for all that time. Their internal layout, with narrow doorways and partitions, is completely unsuited to carrying passengers with significant amounts of baggage from Gatwick Airport up to London, where Thameslink provides access to many useful central points like London Bridge or Kings Cross, mixed in with passenger heavy loads from Brighton and East Croydon, and with Thameslink's propensity to run minimum 4-car trains on busy services.

So after a generation of all this, maybe others can take their share of the unsuitability.

Thanks very much.

After 30 years of riding Pacers around the north I don't think you have much to complain about.

Perhaps in the interest of fairness and balance we could propose a cultural exchange of trainsets.

Let Bedfordshire and Sussex commuters experience the exhilaration (shear dread and panic) of travelling on a class 142 for a change, Maybe Middlesex and Hertfordshire can endure the slow onset of carbon monoxide poisoning one endures from routinely being on a class 150 or maybe Essex can endure the asthmatic like heating on a class 156 on a cold January morning.

 

[DJH1971]

I was talking to one of the Signallers from Wigan Wallgate the other day and he gave me to understand they were now expected in June.

And the unit in question to be landing up north soon is said to be 319361

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well even the 319s will be an improvement on Pacers, 150s and 156s. When the 308s came to West Yorks in the 1990s people thought they were new trains!

I find it more worrying that the rate at which they are being transferred is so slow....only 2 units by Dec 14! Also the rather leisurely pace of the wiring project but perhaps that's not surprising if there is no stock to use it. Why is the Wigan route progressing faster than the Earlestown route if the first electric trains are to be Liverpool-MIA, and why have no contracts been let to wire Manchester-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool?

Balfour Beatty have all the north-west electrification work (including Northern Hub and Victoria-Stalybridge).
The Phase 2 contract is to do the lot (Edge Hill-Wigan/Earlestown, plus Ordsall Lane-Victoria) by December.
It's not NR/BB's fault if the trains are late.
The trains are expected to work any of the Wigan/Warrington/Victoria/Airport services as they become available.
The delays in 319 transfer are down to the new 377s not being ready for Thameslink service.

 

[DJH1971]

Balfour Beatty have all the north-west electrification work (including Northern Hub and Victoria-Stalybridge).
The Phase 2 contract is to do the lot (Edge Hill-Wigan/Earlestown, plus Ordsall Lane-Victoria) by December.
It's not NR/BB's fault if the trains are late.
The trains are expected to work any of the Wigan/Warrington/Victoria/Airport services as they become available.
The delays in 319 transfer are down to the new 377s not being ready for Thameslink service.

Might have said it before, but they really need to move up a gear now.

Having said that, with wiring already in place between Bryn and Carr Mill and more masts now in place near Whiston is still encouraging, plus the 9 day blockage would be a real boost to speed up.

 

[Darren R]

Look, we have had these thoroughly unsatisfactory units inflicted upon us here for all that time....

...So after a generation of all this, maybe others can take their share of the unsuitability.

The argument that 'we've had to put up with these awful trains so everyone else can suffer too' only actually works if Northern can off-load their Pacers on to your services; it works both ways you know! Is that a deal? I suspect not!

 

[DJH1971]

The argument that 'we've had to put up with these awful trains so everyone else can suffer too' only actually works if Northern can off-load their Pacers on to your services; it works both ways you know! Is that a deal? I suspect not!

There's only one good place to off-load the Pacers.

Down a cliff. :roll:

 

[Starmill]

Look, we have had these thoroughly unsatisfactory units inflicted upon us here for all that time. Their internal layout, with narrow doorways and partitions, is completely unsuited to carrying passengers with significant amounts of baggage from Gatwick Airport up to London, where Thameslink provides access to many useful central points like London Bridge or Kings Cross, mixed in with passenger heavy loads from Brighton and East Croydon, and with Thameslink's propensity to run minimum 4-car trains on busy services.

So after a generation of all this, maybe others can take their share of the unsuitability.

Ahem.

sob sob

 

[muddythefish]

Perhaps in the interest of fairness and balance we could propose a cultural exchange of trainsets.

Let Bedfordshire and Sussex commuters experience the exhilaration (shear dread and panic) of travelling on a class 142 for a change, Maybe Middlesex and Hertfordshire can endure the slow onset of carbon monoxide poisoning one endures from routinely being on a class 150 or maybe Essex can endure the asthmatic like heating on a class 156 on a cold January morning.

Quite.

The 319s are tired and old so why is the north expected to put with substandard rolling stock that hasn't even been refurbished ?

They aren't deemed good enough now for London commuters so why should they be acceptable for those in Liverpool and Manchester /

And why are northern transport bodies, northern councils and northern MPs and Northern Rail itself shouting from the rooftops about it ?

 

[fgwrich]

Quite.

The 319s are tired and old so why is the north expected to put with substandard rolling stock that hasn't even been refurbished ?

They aren't deemed good enough now for London commuters so why should they be acceptable for those in Liverpool and Manchester /

And why are northern transport bodies, northern councils and northern MPs and Northern Rail itself shouting from the rooftops about it ?

And we can go round and round in circles again and again on this subject.

Old, Not that much. Deemed not good enough for London Commuters on Thameslink, but deemed suitable enough for London Commuters on the Great Western? The main reason for replacing them is because of the lack of fitment of ATO for these services, and to be replaced by - if the mock up goes - slightly less suitable for longer distance but heavily Metro based trains to handle the large numbers of passengers in the Thameslink Central London core.

Having travelled on a few of FCCs refurbished 319/3s last week, there's little that's unsuitable about them - the refurbishment still feels good and smart with comfortable seats, and First always seem to manage a better standard of refurbishment than Northern Rails fleet.

Simple choice. A 2 car Northern Rail 156 on Liverpool to Manchester with 2&2 seating last refurbished either by Northern Spirit or half heartedly by Northern, or a 4 Car 3&2 seated with ample luggage or standing space 319?

 

[deltic08]

Look, we have had these thoroughly unsatisfactory units inflicted upon us here for all that time. Their internal layout, with narrow doorways and partitions, is completely unsuited to carrying passengers with significant amounts of baggage from Gatwick Airport up to London, where Thameslink provides access to many useful central points like London Bridge or Kings Cross, mixed in with passenger heavy loads from Brighton and East Croydon, and with Thameslink's propensity to run minimum 4-car trains on busy services.

So after a generation of all this, maybe others can take their share of the
unsuitability.

Typically wet mamby pamby southerner without grit. You have had 319s from new and trillions of other services from Gatwick to London and still dissatisfied. So because you are dissatisfied with 319s send them North for use on equally unsuitable Manchester airport services then you can have new again? Don't give me that crap about Londoners pay more for their fares so deserve new all the time. Londoners are 9x more heavily subsidised than Northerners per head so should pay more.

Having said that, 319/361 was looking quite tidy internally and was steady at 90+mph on a recent ride to St Albans. It was just the rattling doors and windows, poor window glass and screaming traction motors accelerating from stops through 20mph that let it down. Very much second hand or not, 319/361 was far superior to a 150 or Pacers in every respect but give me a British built 377 for style and ride quality everytime. 387s on TPEx to Newcastle post electrification please if we don't get 5-car IEPs.

Thank you to those who responded to cascade schedules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's only one good place to off-load the Pacers.

Down a cliff. :roll:

I endorse this but is it worth damaging a cliff?

 

[PDG1949]

There's only one good place to off-load the Pacers.

Down a cliff. :roll:

Oh c'mon - show a bit of kindness

How's about a Donkey Sanctuary ? !

 

[deltic08]

And we can go round and round in circles again and again on this subject.

Old, Not that much. Deemed not good enough for London Commuters on Thameslink, but deemed suitable enough for London Commuters on the Great Western? The main reason for replacing them is because of the lack of fitment of ATO for these services, and to be replaced by - if the mock up goes - slightly less suitable for longer distance but heavily Metro based trains to handle the large numbers of passengers in the Thameslink Central London core.

Having travelled on a few of FCCs refurbished 319/3s last week, there's little that's unsuitable about them - the refurbishment still feels good and smart with comfortable seats, and First always seem to manage a better standard of refurbishment than Northern Rails fleet.

Simple choice. A 2 car Northern Rail 156 on Liverpool to Manchester with 2&2 seating last refurbished either by Northern Spirit or half heartedly by Northern, or a 4 Car 3&2 seated with ample luggage or standing space 319?

I would still go for 2x156 with end doors, 2+2 seating, good window /seat alignment, tables and very comportable at 75mph.

I suggest you confer with Taunton as one of you is incorrect about 319 luggage space.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Look, we have had these thoroughly unsatisfactory units inflicted upon us here for all that time. Their internal layout, with narrow doorways and partitions, is completely unsuited to carrying passengers with significant amounts of baggage from Gatwick Airport up to London, where Thameslink provides access to many useful central points like London Bridge or Kings Cross, mixed in with passenger heavy loads from Brighton and East Croydon, and with Thameslink's propensity to run minimum 4-car trains on busy services.

So after a generation of all this, maybe others can take their share of the unsuitability.

I suggest you confer with fgwrich as one of you is incorrect about 319 luggage space

 

[fgwrich]

Having relooked up the 319s, it's the 319/4s that had the extra Luggage rack modifications whilst retaining their first class as well. However, there is still little wrong with the 319s that have been refurbished by FCC and still remain comfortable and in good condition. Yes, the interior layout of a 156 might be preferred by some, but a fully wedge 2 car 156 with semi regional interior or a 319/3 in 4 car with interior layout set up in reasonable condition for service es like Liverpool to Manchester.

 

[HSTEd]

Where would the stock for those 4 car sprinter formations come from?

You can have Class 319s or you can have nothing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone out there have up-to-date information on class 319 transfers to Northern. I understood three units were moving in May with delivery of final 377/7s?

The latest news that was told to me was that whilst 319361 was moved north, there is now a delay envisaged on the first Class 319 batch to be sent north on account of the late entry into service with Southern of the first of the eight Class 377/7 units that was originally scheduled for the end of March 2014. When May arrived, none of these new units were in service there and Derby works still had to release the final sets.

If matters have moved on since this information, I would be pleased to know of the actual situation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where would the stock for those 4 car sprinter formations come from?

You can have Class 319s or you can have nothing.

At the moment, with the release time schedule fluidity of the Class 319 units, nothing indeed seems to be the current position...:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's only one good place to off-load the Pacers.......Down a cliff. :roll:

When the storms wreaked havoc on the railway in the Dawlish area not so many weeks ago, sea containers filled with large heavy stone were used as a method of wave-power dispersal in order to enable the works to proceed. At that time, I put forward the idea of ex-Merseyrail Class 142 Pacer units to be similarly filled with large stone and placed on the landward side the artificial reef constructed of the sea containers as an inner lining.

Of course, my idea was decried as being too far ahead of its time....

 

[ianhr]

When the storms wreaked havoc on the railway in the Dawlish area not so many weeks ago, sea containers filled with large heavy stone were used as a method of wave-power dispersal in order to enable the works to proceed. At that time, I put forward the idea of ex-Merseyrail Class 142 Pacer units to be similarly filled with large stone and placed on the landward side the artificial reef constructed of the sea containers as an inner lining.

Of course, my idea was decried as being too far ahead of its time....

Not ahead of it's time. Some years ago old New York Subway cars were dumped off the coast of Long Island to provide some sort of sanctuary for shellfish. Although the transit authority have the humanity to retain a couple of sets of vintage stock for occasional public enjoyment on the main system. btw. although spartan and basic I think I prefer the subway cars to the Pacers.