Railways in the North, Dark Clouds Looming

[transmanche]

The North already has the most rundown rolling stock and the slowest and most uncomfortable services.

You've obviously never travelled on a 313 into Moorgate in the rush hour...

 

[northwichcat]

You've obviously never travelled on a 313 into Moorgate in the rush hour...

Is it really worse than Northern's Pacers: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012-11-21-08.04.55.jpg ? The seating you can't see on that train is 3+2 bus seating. Oh and if you can't get on that train then it's 60 minutes until the next one.

 

[Beveridges]

No, but I have both driven and travelled on Pacers. At least a 313 has bogies and doesn't bounce around all over the place violently.

 

[47802]

As a Northerner well used to Northern Trains flea pits, I was on a Moorgate 313 the other week and would agree they are well up or well down to northern standards, they really are clapped out old junk, yes the ride is probably a bit better although the carriage I was on seemed to have a square wheel.

 

[transmanche]

The North already has the most rundown rolling stock and the slowest and most uncomfortable services. Why make it worse?

You've obviously never travelled on a 313 into Moorgate in the rush hour...

Is it really worse than Northern's Pacers

Well it's rundown, slow and uncomfortable. And the overcrowding is worse than in the photo you linked.

http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012-11-21-08.04.55.jpg ? The seating you can't see on that train is 3+2 bus seating. Oh and if you can't get on that train then it's 60 minutes until the next one.

Well the Northern Pacers that I regularly travel on look like this (before and after view of the recent refresh):

Seems like the seats are generally much better in the North East than they are in the North West - something which is down to decisions made by Northern's predecessor companies.

 

[northwichcat]

Seems like the seats are generally much better in the North East than they are in the North West - something which is down to decisions made by Northern's predecessor companies.

I think it also had PTE influence. GMPTE and Merseytravel weren't happy to accept a reduction in seating capacity (except where disabled access or luggage space was improved) but ATN reduced the seated capacities on their 142s and 144s without making those improvements and apparently looked at making giving their 150s 2+2 seating but decided against it due to the franchise expiring date approach.

Well it's rundown, slow and uncomfortable. And the overcrowding is worse than in the photo you linked.

I fail to see how you'd fit anymore on that train considering the 3+2 seating and the luggage racks, also 142s having inward opening doors and the cab door opens outwards in to the saloon. We've talking about something like 80 standing on a 15.5m long carriage and when it's that crowded the acceleration is very badly affected.

 

[transmanche]

I think it also had PTE influence. GMPTE and Merseytravel weren't happy to accept a reduction in seating capacity (except where disabled access or luggage space was improved) but ATN reduced the seated capacities on their 142s and 144s without making those improvements and apparently looked at making giving their 150s 2+2 seating but decided against it due to the franchise expiring date approach.

Well I think it was Northern Spirit, rather than ATN who replaced the 'bus seats' with decent ones. We don't have any 144s up in the NE, but the 142s with 2+2 seating have plenty of luggage/cycle space.

II fail to see how you'd fit anymore on that train considering the 3+2 seating and the luggage racks, also 142s having inward opening doors and the cab door opens outwards in to the saloon. We've talking about something like 80 standing on a 15.5m long carriage and when it's that crowded the acceleration is very badly affected.

Well the 313s also have 3+2 seating, but do have wider vestibules where crush loading can approach 'Japanese metro' style proportions. At least it means you can't fall over as the train bounces along at 30mph.

 

[47802]

Well it's rundown, slow and uncomfortable. And the overcrowding is worse than in the photo you linked.

Well the Northern Pacers that I regularly travel on look like this (before and after view of the recent refresh):

Seems like the seats are generally much better in the North East than they are in the North West - something which is down to decisions made by Northern's predecessor companies.

Pitty it couldn't stretch to getting rid of that ridiculous seating were the headrests seem to frequently fall off and the seat back is inclined at a ridiculous angle

 

[northwichcat]

Well I think it was Northern Spirit, rather than ATN who replaced the 'bus seats' with decent ones. We don't have any 144s up in the NE, but the 142s with 2+2 seating have plenty of luggage/cycle space.

I think the 144s have got up to Middlesbrough before.

The North East 142s have less luggage/ bike space than the North West 142s. The amount of luggage/ bike space is insufficient on some North West services operated by Pacers so there must be a lot less luggage and bikes on trains in the North East if that's the case.

Well the 313s also have 3+2 seating, but do have wider vestibules where crush loading can approach 'Japanese metro' style proportions. At least it means you can't fall over as the train bounces along at 30mph.

These interiors:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rain_interior_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1060420.jpg

or these ones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:313117_London_Overground_Interior.jpg ?

The first one looks similar in layout to the refurbished 150s with Northern which can handle a lot more standees than a 142 of any description.

The latter looks like one designed specifically to accommodate a very high number of standing passengers like the London Underground trains can.

Of course Southern refitted their 313s to have interiors very similar to the Merseyrail units which both go to show that old EMUs can be made to look like modern trains, something you wouldn't really achieve with a Pacer.

 

[transmanche]

I think the 144s have got up to Middlesbrough before.

That's 'the south'!

The North East 142s have less luggage/ bike space than the North West 142s. The amount of luggage/ bike space is insufficient on some North West services operated by Pacers so there must be a lot less luggage and bikes on trains in the North East if that's the case.

I've no idea what the NW Pacers are like, but the ones in the NE typically have tip-up longitudinal seats in the luggage/cycle area. With more than enough room for one bike on each side of the train, even on busy trains.

The first one looks similar in layout to the refurbished 150s with Northern which can handle a lot more standees than a 142 of any description.

Oh I'm sure it can handle more standing passengers than a 142, but you'll have noticed I referred to the level of overcrowding. Try stuffing twice as many standing passengers on that 142 to get an idea of the standing passenger density.

The latter looks like one designed specifically to accommodate a very high number of standing passengers like the London Underground trains can.

The second photo shows the original style of low-back seats, but that's not the type of layout that FCC uses.

 

[northwichcat]

I've no idea what the NW Pacers are like, but the ones in the NE typically have tip-up longitudinal seats in the luggage/cycle area. With more than enough room for one bike on each side of the train, even on busy trains.

You mean there's no luggage room but the tip-up seats aren't taken by passengers.

Oh I'm sure it can handle more standing passengers than a 142, but you'll have noticed I referred to the level of overcrowding. Try stuffing twice as many standing passengers on that 142 to get an idea of the standing passenger density.

To put this in to prospective the Pacer in the picture I linked to would be on this list: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20783986 if it wasn't for the fact it doesn't arrive in a major city in the morning weekday peak or leave a major city in the evening weekday peak meaning it's excluded.

London is classed as a major city so are you referring to Moorgate trains going away from London in the morning peak or going towards it in the evening peak being more crowded? If it's services to London in the morning or away from London in the evening then why are the services you're talking about not on the list I mentioned above?

Your idea of doubling the number of standing passengers on the train would mean about 440 on a train with 120 seats which would make overcrowding on the 07:44 First Great Western Henley-on-Thames to London Paddington look like nothing.

 

[transmanche]

You mean there's no luggage room but the tip-up seats aren't taken by passengers.

Er no. I used bikes as an example to show the amount of room available...

To put this in to prospective the Pacer in the picture I linked to would be on this list: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20783986 if it wasn't for the fact it doesn't arrive in a major city in the morning weekday peak or leave a major city in the evening weekday peak meaning it's excluded.

London is classed as a major city so are you referring to Moorgate trains going away from London in the morning peak or going towards it in the evening peak being more crowded? If it's services to London in the morning or away from London in the evening then why are the services you're talking about not on the list I mentioned above?

Because you have to delve a little deeper into the stats to understand why.

For the 313s run into Moorgate, the most overcrowded point is at Highbury & islington (where a lot of passengers interchange to the Victoria line) and not the terminus. When measuring these journeys a 'standing allowance' is also added. (The DfT doesn't say how much this is for each type of stock, but says it's about 35% for modern sliding door stock.) So a 313 with 231 seats could carry 312 passengers and still be counted as being at just 100% of capacity.

Looking at the article you linked to: number 8 on that list (18:17 from Liverpool Street to Shenfield) is operated by two similar (but 4-car) 315s and includes a standing allowance. It has a seated capacity of 636 and was carrying 1329 passengers. That's 209% of seated capacity, but the 'standing allowance' means it's only recorded as 154%.

Number 1 on that list (the 07:44 Henley to Paddington) had a seated capacity of 225 and was carrying 404. But it wasn't given a 'standing allowance'. If it had been (like the 18:17 to Shenfield), it would only have been recorded as about 134% over capacity. (The DfT also notes that a longer train was subsequently used, raising seated capacity to 340.)

 

[northwichcat]

Because you have to delve a little deeper into the stats to understand why.

For the 313s run into Moorgate, the most overcrowded point is at Highbury & islington (where a lot of passengers interchange to the Victoria line) and not the terminus. When measuring these journeys a 'standing allowance' is also added. (The DfT doesn't say how much this is for each type of stock, but says it's about 35% for modern sliding door stock.) So a 313 with 231 seats could carry 312 passengers and still be counted as being at just 100% of capacity.

Looking at the article you linked to: number 8 on that list (18:17 from Liverpool Street to Shenfield) is operated by two similar (but 4-car) 315s and includes a standing allowance. It has a seated capacity of 636 and was carrying 1329 passengers. That's 209% of seated capacity, but the 'standing allowance' means it's only recorded as 154%.

Number 1 on that list (the 07:44 Henley to Paddington) had a seated capacity of 225 and was carrying 404. But it wasn't given a 'standing allowance'. If it had been (like the 18:17 to Shenfield), it would only have been recorded as about 134% over capacity. (The DfT also notes that a longer train was subsequently used, raising seated capacity to 340.)

It's where there's more than 20 minutes between stations that a standing allowance isn't included, otherwise it's 35% unless the rolling stock is non-standard e.g. the LO 378s. That's why the 06:23 First TransPennine Express Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough (without a Dewsbury call) is included but some busier TPE services (with a Dewsbury call) aren't.

However, you're claim was that you could double the number of standees on the Pacer (from around 80 per carriage to around 160 per carriage) to bring it in line with the overcrowding on Moorgate services which would make it 2.7 times higher than the 135% capacity figure for a 142 (which is 162 maximum including standing) so you're claiming around 840 people cram on to a 3 car 313 (based on your capacity of 312.)

 

[Harpers Tate]

Just to place the Moorgate comparision into context, I'd just like to re-quote the Northern post above, with a little bolding:

Is it really worse than Northern's Pacers: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012-11-21-08.04.55.jpg ? The seating you can't see on that train is 3+2 bus seating. Oh and
if you can't get on that train then it's 60 minutes until the next one.

Whereas, presumably, the next train into Moorgate is what - 10 minutes away at most?

And that train will in all probability have two coaches. Meaning walking right to the front or back doesn't materially alleviate things. Somehow I suspect the 8 coaches (is it?) going into Moorgate possibly might have less packed density at the extreme ends. Not that I speak from any experience of Moorgate in the peak to confirm that suspicion.

Just saying.

 

[Class377/5]

Just to place the Moorgate comparision into context, I'd just like to re-quote the Northern post above, with a little bolding:

Whereas, presumably, the next train into Moorgate is what - 10 minutes away at most?

And that train will in all probability have two coaches. Meaning walking right to the front or back doesn't materially alleviate things. Somehow I suspect the 8 coaches (is it?) going into Moorgate possibly might have less packed density at the extreme ends. Not that I speak from any experience of Moorgate in the peak to confirm that suspicion.

Just saying.

As we're using the isolated worse case timings you may wish to know that it can in fact be 60min between Moorgate trains with no alternative.

If your comparing the 10mins of some stations you need to compare the more frequency services not the less. In other words your example is voided as your trying to compare apples and oranges to distort the debate.

And Moorgate is 3/6 coaches of 20m stock in peak with mainly 3 off peak.

Just saying.

 

[petersi]

As we're using the isolated worse case timings you may wish to know that it can in fact be 60min between Moorgate trains with no alternative.


Just saying.

I think you are not being fair
When in use the time tabled frequency at worst is 15 min

Late night and early morning service to any destination is hourly but that is after 23:30 and services go to kings cross

From Finsbury park you could always use the tube



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[transmanche]

However, you're claim was that you could double the number of standees on the Pacer (from around 80 per carriage to around 160 per carriage) to bring it in line with the overcrowding on Moorgate services

Firstly, we've only got your assertion that there are 80 standing passengers - certainly in the photo that you linked to, it doesn't look to me that there are 80 standing passengers in the carriage.

What I actually said was:

Well the 313s also have 3+2 seating, but do have wider vestibules where crush loading can approach 'Japanese metro' style proportions. At least it means you can't fall over as the train bounces along at 30mph.

Try stuffing twice as many standing passengers on that 142 to get an idea of the standing passenger density.

 

[northwichcat]

Firstly, we've only got your assertion that there are 80 standing passengers - certainly in the photo that you linked to, it doesn't look to me that there are 80 standing passengers in the carriage.

What I actually said was:

The passenger loading given by the chairman of a RUG who took the photo is 278 which is 79 standing per carriage but there might be more standing in one carriage than the other. What you're forgetting is there are two places on a Pacer where the standing capacity is highest are out-of-sight on that photo. I did make clear that the train had low back 3+2 seating which is hidden in the photo. An account given by the RUG chairman of that service describes how there are school children on that service sometimes sit on the luggage rack or on the floor where the bicycle space is and also that some school children sit on each other's knees.

 

[transmanche]

Whereas, presumably, the next train into Moorgate is what - 10 minutes away at most?

Not always. And then it will be just as crowded as the previous service. In particular, peak trains are so overcrowded at Hornsey and Harringay stations that passengers are frequently unable to board trains.

Somehow I suspect the 8 coaches (is it?) going into Moorgate possibly might have less packed density at the extreme ends.

Maximum 6-cars, but sometimes only 3. Packed from end-to-end.

Not that I speak from any experience of Moorgate in the peak to confirm that suspicion.

Ah well...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The passenger loading given by the chairman of a RUG who took the photo is 278 which is 79 standing per carriage but there might be more standing in one carriage than the other.

So an estimate by a vested interest?

 

[northwichcat]

So an estimate by a vested interest?

The RUG do have volunteers who go around with clipboards recording passenger numbers and from what I've seen of the figures they aren't inflated. They have no interest in making false claims as it would make any campaign for service improvements less effective. If anything they are slight underestimates due to some children getting missed, which is probably why you're thinking it's an overestimate because you can't see the < 5ft children behind the taller passengers. The RUG passenger counts were even used as evidence by both GMPTE and Passenger Focus as prove that LENNON data provides underestimates.

What I've provided - a link to a photo and a passenger usage figure is a lot more than you've given for your unverified claim about Moorgate services being much worse.

 

[transmanche]

What I've provided - a link to a photo and a passenger usage figure is a lot more than you've given for your unverified claim about Moorgate services being much worse.

Flash photography is illegal at Highbury & Islington and Moorgate stations. But a photo seems to be of little use - as you keep telling me about what I can't see in the photo!

And no, I'm traipsing all the way down to London to do a passenger count, quite simply you would need at least 12 people (one at each door) to make an accurate passenger count at Highbury & Islington and/or Moorgate. But perhaps you'd like to give it a try to experience it in all its glorious grimness.

Anyway, we're getting stuck in a side-argument here. My original comment that:

You've obviously never travelled on a 313 into Moorgate in the rush hour...

was in response to:

The North already has the most rundown rolling stock and the slowest and most uncomfortable services.

So yes, we can split hairs all day long about the relative rundownness, slowness and uncomfortableness of different services. But it's not just as simple as a 'North vs South' argument.

 

[Beveridges]

Well it's rundown, slow and uncomfortable. And the overcrowding is worse than in the photo you linked.

Yes but your forgetting the fact that the bounce on the Pacers is brutal.
They literally throw you around all over the place. With overcrowding that bad, it's difficult to stand as it is, without being thrown around and smashed into other passengers every time the Pacer hits a joint in the rails.
Any stock with bogies, air bags and thus proper suspension is superior to Pacers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Considering the title of this thread makes reference to railways in the North, I note that some rather strange geographically based postings have been made that seem to discuss matters somewhat far removed to the south of that area...hock:

 

[transmanche]

Yes but your forgetting the fact that the bounce on the Pacers is brutal.
They literally throw you around all over the place. With overcrowding that bad, it's difficult to stand as it is, without being thrown around and smashed into other passengers every time the Pacer hits a joint in the rails.
Any stock with bogies, air bags and thus proper suspension is superior to Pacers.

I'm not forgetting anything at all. I know exactly how bad the ride on Pacers can be. I've done Newcastle-Carlisle on one on quite a few occasions (and once is more than enough!)

As I mentioned earlier, it's only the crush-loading on some of these 313 services that stops you falling over - and the fact that on the run down to Moorgate it's 30mph max linespeed (considerably slower on the approach to Moorgate station for obvious reasons). And despite having proper suspension, the ride is very 'bouncy' - with what I can only describe on an overcrowded trains as a feeling as if the suspension is frequently 'bottoming out'.

But like I said, this isn't about 'north v south'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Considering the title of this thread makes reference to railways in the North, I note that some rather strange geographically based postings have been made that seem to discuss matters somewhat far removed to the south of that area...hock:

Unfortunately (as is often the case) there was a bit of a 'north v south' thread-drift...

 

[Moonshot]

Considering the title of this thread makes reference to railways in the North, I note that some rather strange geographically based postings have been made that seem to discuss matters somewhat far removed to the south of that area...hock:

Dont see what the problem is....in any discussion which goes in depth , there are other points added which link in...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Dont see what the problem is....in any discussion which goes in depth , there are other points added which link in...

I note what you say, but on the Stoke v Crewe thread debate, we have just seen mention made of the Heathrow branch line, but I suppose this too will be an acceptable adjunct to that particular debate....:roll:

 

[northwichcat]

Flash photography is illegal at Highbury & Islington and Moorgate stations. But a photo seems to be of little use - as you keep telling me about what I can't see in the photo!

Earlier in this thread you implied you knew how Pacers were laid out and how the East side ones were different so I obviously incorrectly assumed that you'd realise that there would be quite a bit of standing space behind where the photo had been taken from. The bottom of the photo shows the top of the head of a child in front of the photographer who wouldn't be seen behind a taller person.

And no, I'm traipsing all the way down to London to do a passenger count, quite simply you would need at least 12 people (one at each door) to make an accurate passenger count at Highbury & Islington and/or Moorgate. But perhaps you'd like to give it a try to experience it in all its glorious grimness.

If it's really as bad as you make out I'm sure there are passenger numbers for FCC services publicly available. Maybe FCC even have automatic passenger counters fitted to the train despite the age of the train, Northern do on some of their DMUs from the 1980s. Looking at Fix My Transport it looks like FCC have reallocated capacity when specific services have got too crowded.

was in response to:

I'm not really sure where you were going with that given the interior of a FCC is better than many of the Northern 142s and the service frequency on the Moorgate line is higher than on a lot of services. I'm not sure if 313s produce a deafening squeal on sharp corners like Pacers do. It sounds like the ride quality is poor on both but a common theme on this forum seems to be that people say an older EMU can be better than a newer DMU.

 

[transmanche]

But a photo seems to be of little use - as you keep telling me about what I can't see in the photo!

Earlier in this thread you implied you knew how Pacers were laid out and how the East side ones were different so I obviously incorrectly assumed that you'd realise that there would be quite a bit of standing space behind where the photo had been taken from. The bottom of the photo shows the top of the head of a child in front of the photographer who wouldn't be seen behind a taller person.

Thanks for the snide comments.

This is what you said:

What you're forgetting is there are two places on a Pacer where the standing capacity is highest are out-of-sight on that photo. I did make clear that the train had low back 3+2 seating which is hidden in the photo. An account given by the RUG chairman of that service describes how there are school children on that service sometimes sit on the luggage rack or on the floor where the bicycle space is and also that some school children sit on each other's knees.

My response was that is seems pointless posting a photograph of a train (one that that looks crowded, but not crush loaded) if all you're going to do is then tell me about all the things I cannot see in the photograph. If the photo does not reflect reality, then why bother to post it?!?!

So I'll make it clear to you: based on the photograph you posted (taking into account the 3+2 seating and the fact that passengers are standing behind the camera's viewpoint and whether or not there are children sitting on the luggage racks) the density of standing passengers (that is people per square metre of available floor space) on that service does not look to me anything like as high as that I have experienced on 313 services into Moorgate; where I have witnessed on numerous occasions it has been physically impossible to fit an extra person on the train; let alone room to get out a camera to take a photo. And that's not hyperbole, it means there really is no way to squeeze anyone extra on board - despite many passengers attempting to do so.

 

[ed1971]

Crush loaded Northern Class 142 2mins 30 secs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX1BaE98hWY

 

[transmanche]

Crush loaded Northern Class 142 2mins 30 secs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX1BaE98hWY

Pfft, I could have squeezed myself into that!