Railways in the North, Dark Clouds Looming

[YorkshireBear]

Following on from the news of the 170s this has also appeared in Modern Railways.

The government is looking at making a significant reduction in the subsidy to Northern and FTPE. The government is suggesting 'significant' fare increases, car parking charges at most stations and is considering a reduction in services.

It appears they are trying to stop growth. After all the positive noises about rail in the North of England for the last five years, is this the beginning of the end of that trend?

I imagine the Northern MPs will begin making some rather loud noises as this becomes apparent to them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It also mentions that an "almighty row" is looming between the DfT and northern politicians as a result.
It's no more than I expected.
The cumulative effect of DfT budget cuts (which the current franchises have been immune from) and poorer returns from the "rich" franchises is now coming home in the new round of franchise negotiations.
The DfT also wants some McNulty cost reductions, something else ignored by most of the railway (except Network Rail).

This is balanced by massive expenditure on infrastructure (electrification, signalling etc) on capital account.
It's similar to building a new hospital but not being able to afford to run it.

I don't think the DfT is picking on the north, it's just that these are the franchises up for renewal next.
The VT and FGW direct awards didn't set the world alight either.

 

[northwichcat]

YorkshireBear, do note that there are two TOCs currently on Revenue Share - one is Northern and the other is TPE so if two franchises are going to get a reduced subsidy it seems logical to pick the two which are in a most comfortable position.

 

[David Barrett]

It does seem to fly in the face of our Government's current war cry of giving help to hardworking families though.

 

[YorkshireBear]

YorkshireBear, do note that there are two TOCs currently on Revenue Share - one is Northern and the other is TPE so if two franchises are going to get a reduced subsidy it seems logical to pick the two which are in a most comfortable position.

Yes that makes sense, so why not reduce subsidy to those levels then? Why go further and try to get back money by raising fares and introducing car parking charges. I agree subsidy should be reduced, completely agree, but i do not think it should be reduced so much as to do the things listed in the OP.

To me it seems they are stopping growth, suppressing demand instead of actually meeting demand.

 

[455driver]

If the subsidy was reduced where is the money coming from to make up the shortfall?

Its either increase the fares or find some other revenue stream like oh I dont know, carparking!

 

[chorleyjeff]

It does seem to fly in the face of our Government's current war cry of giving help to hardworking families though.

And what about people without families, those who don't work hard ( me ) and those who don't work at all?

 

[northwichcat]

And what about people without families, those who don't work hard ( me ) and those who don't work at all?

O/T but it seems single people who are saving up deposits for mortgages are those who are worst hit. Firstly, interest rates on your savings are very low and then if you lose your job and have accumulated over £16,000 in savings then you're now ineligible for benefits so have to use the money you have only the money you've saved up for a deposit to support yourself, which could completely disappear if you're out of work for a while.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If the subsidy was reduced where is the money coming from to make up the shortfall?

Its either increase the fares or find some other revenue stream like oh I dont know, carparking!

To be fair i agree that we should charge for car parking...They are expensive to build and maintain.

 

[westv]

I thought all station car parks charged (except very small ones). Is that not the case then?

 

[anti-pacer]

Makes sense to continue to make Northern England poorer at the expense of London and the South East.

Why change the habit of a lifetime?!

 

[transmanche]

Makes sense to continue to make Northern England poorer at the expense of London and the South East.

?

 

[anti-pacer]

?

If having a desire that the North receives its fair share of investment to balance the widening gap between us and the South East is such a bad thing, send me up the T-shirt.

 

[swt_passenger]

How many times over the last few years have people proposed here that the DfT should get out of the rolling stock market, and leave it to the experts, i.e. the TOCs and the ROSCOs?

Be careful what you wish for...

 

[route:oxford]

Makes sense to continue to make Northern England poorer at the expense of London and the South East.

Why change the habit of a lifetime?!

There are ups and downs to everything.

A nurse friend of mine gets the identical salary in Oxford as her sister does in Hull.

Cheapest (non-auction) 2 bedroom house in Hull - £30,000
Cheapest (non-auction) 2 bedroom house in Oxford - £165,000

 

[transmanche]

If having a desire that the North receives its fair share of investment to balance the widening gap between us and the South East is such a bad thing, send me up the T-shirt.

Ah... 'fair share'... such a subjective word.

But then none of this seems to have anything to do with a commercial decision taken by a RoSCo....

 

[westv]

Cheapest (non-auction) 2 bedroom house in Hull - £30,000
Cheapest (non-auction) 2 bedroom house in Oxford - £165,000

Is that comparing the same crappiness of house?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

?

Have you got one with "CHIP" on both shoulders?
As used in North Wales (the second chip is for Cardiff)...

 

[Class377/5]

How many times over the last few years have people proposed here that the DfT should get out of the rolling stock market, and leave it to the experts, i.e. the TOCs and the ROSCOs?

Be careful what you wish for...

Spot on. Many of use have moaned over the DfT interference, well results like this will be result of such actions.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Makes sense to continue to make Northern England poorer at the expense of London and the South East.

Why change the habit of a lifetime?!

Actually London and the South East subsidise the North and without that support the North would be much poorer. Let us hope that London does not declare Independence any time soon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are ups and downs to everything.

A nurse friend of mine gets the identical salary in Oxford as her sister does in Hull.

Cheapest (non-auction) 2 bedroom house in Hull - £30,000
Cheapest (non-auction) 2 bedroom house in Oxford - £165,000

Indeed yes.
But the Oxford house will be a much better investment. Yes I know we shouldn't think of houses as investment but most of us do.
I have an interest in this - I am very keen to move to South Bucks but Lanashire semis buy little more than one bedroom flats

 

[RichmondCommu]

Actually London and the South East subsidise the North and without that support the North would be much poorer. Let us hope that London does not declare Independence any time soon.

Exactly! Too many in the North (and more importantly Scotland) seem to forget this. Everyone seems happy to slag off "ignorant" Londoners whilst conveniently forgetting what they add to the economy.

 

[YorkshireBear]

This is not meant to be a North South debate.... i am simply a little dissapointed that they suddenly want to lower the funding significantly...

Its the fares, and reducing services i am more concerned about. Car parks, people can deal with it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Exactly! Too many in the North (and more importantly Scotland) seem to forget this. Everyone seems happy to slag off "ignorant" Londoners whilst conveniently forgetting what they add to the economy.

But you could argue that the North (and other centres of the industrial revolution) generated the capital that built London up in the first place.

I was amazed to find that the MoD opposed the recent move of the Met Office from Bracknell to Exeter on the grounds that it broke the "golden triangle" rule which dictated that all military HQ facilities should be within so many miles of London.
Luckily they lost.

 

[Class377/5]

This is not meant to be a North South debate.... i am simply a little dissapointed that they suddenly want to lower the funding significantly...

Its the fares, and reducing services i am more concerned about. Car parks, people can deal with it.

They want to lower the funding for all franchises its just its going to effect Northern first. And London is not out of this with the TSGN franchise being a management contract with the winning bidder having to enhance the franchise while the DfT keeps the rest of the money from what will be the biggest franchise.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This is not meant to be a North South debate.... i am simply a little dissapointed that they suddenly want to lower the funding significantly...

Its the fares, and reducing services i am more concerned about. Car parks, people can deal with it.

There's only two ways of squaring the circle of the holy grail of reducing rail subsidy to regional franchises firstly closing them completely or seriously investing in them so they become attractive enough that serious amounts of modal shift occurs so that revenue goes up in the long term. we've had 40 years of wanting a third way that has never happened. I doubt the latest proposals from DfT will succeeded either.

When HS2 arrives in the north in 2033 whist will meet it?

 

[transmanche]

But you could argue that the North (and other centres of the industrial revolution) generated the capital that built London up in the first place.

And I thought that Shropshire was the centre of the industrial revolution...?

And the industry wasn't all up north; London used to be an industrial centre too...

 

[anti-pacer]

The majority of British rail users would see the railways as a service, a means of getting from A to B, and couldn't give two hoots about the complexities of how the industry works, which is complicated at best.

Regardless of what knowledge we all have, I hear comments from fellow commuters about how poor the rolling stock is up here, etc, etc. I see no reason why us up north shouldn't have decent services and the decent trains to run them. We're people, we're taxpayers, we're not second class citizens.

London probably subsidies the whole of the UK, being by far the largest economy of the country. The BBC programme on Monday night highlighted this. I'm not against London, far from it, or its people. I love London and Londoner's. I just want a better deal than we currently get.

 

[Class377/5]

There was a point made in the Evening Standard (I think) that of London kept 12% of the tax it collected then it could build multiple Crossrail lines, one after the other and radically change its transport provision (which is behind its demand just like else where in the country).

 

[kevconnor]

I just hope this cost saving doesn't lead to a repeat of the price gouging and disastrous decision making that led the the previous choices of franchisees on the ECML. Cost and money aren't everything, the chosen TOC needs to be able to fulfil the obligations of the contract for as long as it is due to run.

 

[eps200]

How many times over the last few years have people proposed here that the DfT should get out of the rolling stock market, and leave it to the experts, i.e. the TOCs and the ROSCOs?

Be careful what you wish for...

Out of curiosity why doesn't network rail run a non profit rosco leveraging gov lending rates? Seems like pointless rent seeking.