Railways in the North, Dark Clouds Looming

[ianhr]

If electrification can avoid the infrastructure cost and journey time implications of loops, why build them? Avoiding unnecessary spending is not being 'mean'.

Chris

Well the traffic is continually growing while the operators insist on sticking with their ridiculous policy of running very frequent but very short (2 or 3-car) trains. If you want to save infrastructure spending the obvious solution would be to operate less frequent but much longer trains, as in the past. Then everyone gets a seat without having to fight for it, station dwell times could be reduced if passengers spread themselves along the length of the platforms, and the effects of late running would be less likely to be compounded and timekeeping improved.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Ah but what about where platforms cannot take longer trains?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you want to save infrastructure spending the obvious solution would be to operate less frequent but much longer trains, as in the past. Then everyone gets a seat without having to fight for it, station dwell times could be reduced if passengers spread themselves along the length of the platforms, and the effects of late running would be less likely to be compounded and timekeeping improved.

But would not the extended time period between services just cause those same passengers who had missed the earlier train to wait and to be added to the number of passengers who would be building up in numbers for the following service.

Perhaps my mathematical logic has taken a Sunday sabbatical today....
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Ah but what about where platforms cannot take longer trains?

A most relevant point to make.

 

[transmanche]

Well the traffic is continually growing while the operators insist on sticking with their ridiculous policy of running very frequent but very short (2 or 3-car) trains.

And yet it's this "ridiculous" policy which has attracted a proportion of the passenger growth in the first place. More frequent trains make the service more attractive as a whole.

Transport operators have learned the hard way that running something with a larger capacity but less frequently (and expecting passenger numbers to remain unaffected) does not work.

Back in the 1960s, London Transport started to run larger Routemaster vehicles on country routes, but less frequently in order to save money. They provided the same number of "seats per hour", but passenger numbers fell - as a less-frequent service just became unattractive - and passengers turned to using cars instead.

 

[edwin_m]

It's a question of degree. In the days when Manchester-Leeds trains were every 30min or so that was clearly inadequate, but going from one every 15min to one every 10min brings only a marginal benefit. It should be possible to overcome the platform length issue, considering that some of those infrequent services were formed of long loco-hauled rakes.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just checked the working timetable and the 0708 is indeed booked to wait at Hemsworth from 0726.5 to 0731.5 for 1S31 0600 Birmingham to Glasgow to pass. Thanks for this, I learn something every day!

When I used to live down in South Elmsall this was quite a common occurrence, much to the annoyance of many passengers. The 17:19 Leeds - Doncaster (now 17:20) amongst others was a regular victim of this due to a late running Virgin XC/ XC Exeter service which often ran 15 or so minutes late meaning that the Doncaster usually got away from Leeds first but the had to use the loop to allow the fast past. This would usually mean a 6-8 minute delay to our service with the extra slowing for the loop, the standing time (although the XC was probably always just a signal away from us from Wakefield) & then the getaway.

 

[ianhr]

And yet it's this "ridiculous" policy which has attracted a proportion of the passenger growth in the first place. More frequent trains make the service more attractive as a whole.

Transport operators have learned the hard way that running something with a larger capacity but less frequently (and expecting passenger numbers to remain unaffected) does not work.

Back in the 1960s, London Transport started to run larger Routemaster vehicles on country routes, but less frequently in order to save money. They provided the same number of "seats per hour", but passenger numbers fell - as a less-frequent service just became unattractive - and passengers turned to using cars instead.

I doubt that the growth in passenger numbers has much to do with any operating or TOC policy but is more likely a reflection of the state of road traffic and changing patterns of employment.

Trying to drive into Leeds or Manchester at peak periods is frustrating and parking is expensive.

People are travelling further to work than 20 or 30 years ago and the main hubs for well paid employment are the largest cities (Leeds & Manchester again).

If you want the Trans-Pennine route to be operated as a high frequency (10 min interval) interurban tramway there is a case for this, but then lets have a fares policy and rolling stock policy which is appropriate for this function. TPE tries to pretend that it is running an Inter-City type service with 1/4 seating space occupied by 1st class and all seats reservable with large advance booking discounts.

 

[HSTEd]

Even intercity routes have embraced high frequencies.

British Rail learned the benefits of high frequency services at electrification of the WCML when passenger numbers rose spectacularily and then again at Sprinterisation.

I don't think this is actually in doubt.

 

[edwin_m]

15min frequency is effectively a turn-up-and-go service so business travellers etc (on walk-up tickets) don't have to worry about the timetable.

However someone has posted on here that the two extra trains per hour will run via Guide Bridge and won't serve Victoria, so effectively there are only 4TPH at Victoria with some intervals probably longer than 15min. At Piccadilly there will be 4TPH as well, but some will be slower than others running round the Ordsall Chord. At Leeds there will be 6TPH but a confusing chance of not arriving at the Manchester station you expected!

To me that is a less attractive service than what runs today.

 

[northwichcat]

At Leeds there will be 6TPH but a confusing chance of not arriving at the Manchester station you expected!

It should be fairly simple for TPE trains as those with a destination of the Airport or Liverpool will serve Victoria while ones with a destination of Piccadilly or the Airport will serve Piccadilly. However, maybe the Liverpool ones will cause confusion as if the Airport trains serve both people may assume the Liverpool trains do the same.

What I think will cause greater confusion is extending some Calder Vale services to the Airport so seeing the Airport as a destination at Leeds will no longer automatically mean the train is routed via Huddersfield.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What I think will cause greater confusion is extending some Calder Vale services to the Airport so seeing the Airport as a destination at Leeds will no longer automatically mean the train is routed via Huddersfield.

But surely the platform describers show what stations these trains will call at, in the same way at Manchester Piccadilly where services to Wilmslow can go via Stockport or via the Styal line.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It should be fairly simple for TPE trains as those with a destination of the Airport or Liverpool will serve Victoria while ones with a destination of Piccadilly or the Airport will serve Piccadilly. However, maybe the Liverpool ones will cause confusion as if the Airport trains serve both people may assume the Liverpool trains do the same.

What I think will cause greater confusion is extending some Calder Vale services to the Airport so seeing the Airport as a destination at Leeds will no longer automatically mean the train is routed via Huddersfield.

I would hope it would be advertised as a Leeds-Manc Vic service then once it reaches New Pudsey moves to being advertised as an Airport service. Ie like the Harrogate loop trains advertised as Poppleton until Burley Park. Although again that may cause confusion regarding anyone with Northern Avance tickets which i imagine would be on offer.

 

[brompton rail]

When I used to live down in South Elmsall this was quite a common occurrence, much to the annoyance of many passengers. The 17:19 Leeds - Doncaster (now 17:20) amongst others was a regular victim of this due to a late running Virgin XC/ XC Exeter service which often ran 15 or so minutes late meaning that the Doncaster usually got away from Leeds first but the had to use the loop to allow the fast past. This would usually mean a 6-8 minute delay to our service with the extra slowing for the loop, the standing time (although the XC was probably always just a signal away from us from Wakefield) & then the getaway.

It is not unknown for the xx.20 Northern Doncaster local to leave Leeds on time, whilst the XC service is still loading at an adjacent platform. The Northern train then runs via the Copley Hill Chord and pauses there for the XC to pass on the main up line. This way the delay to Northern is only a few minutes and XC have a chance of catching up on their booked time by the time they get to Sheffield.

 

[northwichcat]

According to an Opinium poll for the Observer:
64% of the UK population back the Northern Hub while only 4% oppose it
44% of people back HS2 while 30% oppose it.
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I would hope it would be advertised as a Leeds-Manc Vic service then once it reaches New Pudsey moves to being advertised as an Airport service. Ie like the Harrogate loop trains advertised as Poppleton until Burley Park. Although again that may cause confusion regarding anyone with Northern Avance tickets which i imagine would be on offer.

I don't know the idea is for a Victoria-Airport service every 15 minutes and Leeds-Huddersfield-Airport every 30 minutes so it might be if you just miss a TPE service then catching an Airport via Bradford service will get you to the Airport quicker than the next Airport via Huddersfield service.

I personally dislike the idea of advertising an intermediate station as the destination. For someone heading for cricket at Headingley expecting to see xx:29 to York on the departure boards but seeing xx:29 to Poppleton doesn't suggest it's the same train. Saying 'Local stopping service' instead like happens at Liverpool and Manchester is a much better idea in my opinion.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't know the idea is for a Victoria-Airport service every 15 minutes and Leeds-Huddersfield-Airport every 30 minutes so it might be if you just miss a TPE service then catching an Airport via Bradford service will get you to the Airport quicker than the next Airport via Huddersfield service.

Depending on the connections, it would probably be better to get the next TPE to Manchester and change at whichever of Victoria or Piccadilly it goes to.
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It should be fairly simple for TPE trains as those with a destination of the Airport or Liverpool will serve Victoria while ones with a destination of Piccadilly or the Airport will serve Piccadilly. However, maybe the Liverpool ones will cause confusion as if the Airport trains serve both people may assume the Liverpool trains do the same.

I think that proves my point quite well about the difficulties the occasional user might have with this service. In any case it's not too bad from Leeds because the two Manchester stations aren't that far apart. The real annoyance will be to someone in the centre of Manchester who heads for the wrong station, just misses a train there, heads over to the other station, just misses the next one...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The real annoyance will be to someone in the centre of Manchester who heads for the wrong station, just misses a train there, heads over to the other station, just misses the next one...

That's already a problem today within Piccadilly station.
Just miss an Airport train at P13, work out that the next is from P5, slog over to P5 just in time to miss it, back to P13 to miss the next...
Having to navigate each way past the G4S guys.
They need "walking time" displays, like they have in some Airports, and clearer "next Airport train" displays.

 

[Wolfie]

The UK gov could find more cash within existing spending plans for transport if so desired and enough pressure levied from mp's and the public. Priorities can be re-focused within total gov spending, reduced or not.

For example, UK spending PER YEAR on the military is $4.6 billion more than France, $12.8 billion more than Germany, $31.8 billion more than Italy, and over $40 billion more than Spain. Why? We don't have an empire. The days of Germany looking to invade are no longer here. Do we need to spend so much more than comparable European nations? And that doesn't include things like that £2 billion plus spent each year in Afghanistan.

Source for that is this Feb 2014 BBC article - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26054545

And that's just one area. The UK has a vast budget. Even with cuts we can find more for the things almost everyone uses and requires for a decent life - transport, housing etc.

Defence is the fourth largest Govt budget. The two biggest are welfare (including pensions) and health. Why exactly do you think the Govt is trying to cut the HORRIBLY bloated welfare bill? For your info the figures are:

Pensions £144.1Bn, welfare (central Govt) £57.2Bn, welfare (local Govt) £55.4Bn - that little lot adds up to over 6% of GDP.....

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_welfare_spending_40.html

If they start charging to use my local station car park, the cost benefit of the train will be gone, so I will stay in my car, as the petrol cost to work will be cheaper than paying £5 per day (for example)

That is only true if you get free parking either at work or on the street near to work.

That's 'the south'!
The second photo shows the original style of low-back seats, but that's not the type of layout that FCC uses.

A number of ex-London Overground 313s were transferred to FCC and continue to run unrefurbished. As such FCC do use them, just in smaller numbers....

 

[Class 170101]

I can't think of anywhere a passenger-carrying train is scheuled to be recessed in a non-station loop, though others probably can!

18:00 LST to BTR recessed in Chelmsford Down Loop for 18:10 LST to NRW to pass.

 

[northwichcat]

I think that proves my point quite well about the difficulties the occasional user might have with this service. In any case it's not too bad from Leeds because the two Manchester stations aren't that far apart. The real annoyance will be to someone in the centre of Manchester who heads for the wrong station, just misses a train there, heads over to the other station, just misses the next one...

Hopefully the new TPE timetable will not only show the xx:52 departure from Victoria for Newcastle but will also show that the Blackpool-Victoria-Huddersfield stopper will provide a connection to the Liverpool-Scarborough service at Stalybridge and that the Kirkby-Victoria-Stalybridge service provides a connection to the Piccadilly-Hull service at Stalybridge.

 

[ianhr]

Hopefully the new TPE timetable will not only show the xx:52 departure from Victoria for Newcastle but will also show that the Blackpool-Victoria-Huddersfield stopper will provide a connection to the Liverpool-Scarborough service at Stalybridge and that the Kirkby-Victoria-Stalybridge service provides a connection to the Piccadilly-Hull service at Stalybridge.

Let's hope this will take some pressure off the grossly overcrowded Liverpool-Man Picc-Leeds trains via the CLC route, but I suspect the new trains will quickly fill up.

btw is the new timetable accessible yet? Do we know the LPL-ManVic-Leeds timings?

 

[northwichcat]

Let's hope this will take some pressure off the grossly overcrowded Liverpool-Man Picc-Leeds trains via the CLC route, but I suspect the new trains will quickly fill up.

btw is the new timetable accessible yet? Do we know the LPL-ManVic-Leeds timings?

Liverpool-Newcastle times here:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...26/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

Newcastle-Liverpool times here:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...26/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

However, note the last Newcastle-Liverpool and last Liverpool-Newcastle service go via Warrington.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Let's hope this will take some pressure off the grossly overcrowded Liverpool-Man Picc-Leeds trains via the CLC route, but I suspect the new trains will quickly fill up.

btw is the new timetable accessible yet? Do we know the LPL-ManVic-Leeds timings?

Been on National Rail for a few weeks now.
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Liverpool - Leeds is 1 hour 28.

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool - Leeds is 1 hour 28.

Liverpool-Newcastle services mainly seem to be 3 hours 3 minutes. It looks like they've done a Virgin* through and timetabled on service to be 3 hours to have a headline of Liverpool-Newcastle in 3 hours: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G33832/2014/05/26/advanced

* Virgin have one daily train which does Manchester-London in 2 hours: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81830/2014/05/12/advanced

 

[YorkshireBear]

Liverpool-Newcastle services mainly seem to be 3 hours 3 minutes. It looks like they've done a Virgin* through and timetabled on service to be 3 hours to have a headline of Liverpool-Newcastle in 3 hours: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G33832/2014/05/26/advanced

* Virgin have one daily train which does Manchester-London in 2 hours: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81830/2014/05/12/advanced

All services appear to do Liverpool-Leeds in that time as i checked a service at 11:12. It does indeed look like they have done that. But to be honest at 3 hours 3 minutes it will probably do it in 3 hours anyway.... My experience of TPE is that destination always arrive 5 mins early if running to time. Especially on the way to Newcastle.

 

[Deerfold]

* Virgin have one daily train which does Manchester-London in 2 hours: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81830/2014/05/12/advanced

Not just Virgin, EC have 1tpd Leeds - London in 1h59 and 1tpd Edinburgh - London in 3h59.

 

[TheWalrus]

Any details of the service reductions or what fares will increase?

 

[Darren R]

Hopefully the new TPE timetable will not only show the xx:52 departure from Victoria for Newcastle but will also show that the Blackpool-Victoria-Huddersfield stopper will provide a connection to the Liverpool-Scarborough service at Stalybridge and that the Kirkby-Victoria-Stalybridge service provides a connection to the Piccadilly-Hull service at Stalybridge.

Services from Kirkby won't be going to Stalybridge; they will be going to Todmorden (Blackburn from December!?) They do not connect at Victoria with the new TPE service, but the Wigan Wallgate - Stalybridge trains do connect at Vic into the TPE service - but not at Stalybridge because the latter train doesn't call there!

 

[northwichcat]

Services from Kirkby won't be going to Stalybridge; they will be going to Todmorden (Blackburn from December!?) They do not connect at Victoria with the new TPE service, but the Wigan Wallgate - Stalybridge trains do connect at Vic into the TPE service - but not at Stalybridge because the latter train doesn't call there!

Here are the Stalybridge times for 09:00 to 10:00 on 26th May showing both the connections I referred to are possible: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/SYB/2014/05/26/0900-1000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

However, for later trains 'Kirkby' does read as 'Wigan Wallgate' instead.

I wasn't making any reference to making a connection to or from the Liverpool-Victoria-Newcastle service, I was saying what you could do if you missed that train and didn't want to wait an hour or walk to Piccadilly. The Piccadilly-Hull service will call at Stalybridge from May as well as the Liverpool-Scarborough service so using the Victoria-Stalybridge services there's options to connect with TPE services at Stalybridge when you're starting from Victoria.

 

[ianhr]

Been on National Rail for a few weeks now.
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Liverpool - Leeds is 1 hour 28.

mmm....& it looks as though they will stand at Man Vic for 8 mins of that if they come in from LPL on time!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Services from Kirkby won't be going to Stalybridge; they will be going to Todmorden (Blackburn from December!?)

Does this bode well, or not as may be the case, for the type of eventual rolling stock service provision to Blackburn via the Copy Pit line that will be offered ? What type of rolling stock are normally provided on the Wigan Wallgate to Kirkby line ?