What the hell else is he gonna do? If you've overpaid for a ticket because of a limited range available (which may or may not be the case in this specific instance) and want it replacing with the cheaper ticket that you originally wished to purchase are you seriously saying a ticket office is going to refund you the difference? Given how difficult it is to get refunds from ticket offices where it is indisputable that they should be doing refunds (such as when a train is late and a journey is abandoned) I think you'd need an exceptionally friendly ticket clerk for that. Would there be a way to do that correctly without leaving your total down?
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Ticket clerk refused to sell ticket
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What the hell else is he gonna do? If you've overpaid for a ticket because of a limited range available (which may or may not be the case in this specific instance) and want it replacing with the cheaper ticket that you originally wished to purchase are you seriously saying a ticket office is going to refund you the difference? Given how difficult it is to get refunds from ticket offices where it is indisputable that they should be doing refunds (such as when a train is late and a journey is abandoned) I think you'd need an exceptionally friendly ticket clerk for that. Would there be a way to do that correctly without leaving your total down?
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craigwilson
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And the ones that do accept cash are often "exact change only". I've had the Buxton machine spit straight back out a £10 note that I was using to pay a £9.60 fare, meaning I had to then pay by card even though I'd not originally wanted to.
RJ
Established Member
If a clerk is being selective in what they sell then I think Condition 3 does apply. In fact, as a passenger, I follow it in these circumstances and just buy the cheapest ticket in the direction I'm travelling, so long as it is cheaper than the ticket I wanted to buy.
I agree that the NRCoC doesn't appear to be written to cover problems caused by staff not doing what they are supposed to, but I think some of the conditions, such as this one do implicitly.
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They should follow Merseyrail's example and have staff at every station during operating hours. Hell, some Northern stations don't even have a TVM (Burscough Junction for example).
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Probably the best course of action, but if a clerk does an impression of Godzilla at me for ten minutes I'm somewhat disinclined to engage with him at all.
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Probably the best course of action, but if a clerk does an impression of Godzilla at me for ten minutes I'm somewhat disinclined to engage with him at all.
There are many, many examples of places where there are never any ticket buying facilities at Northern stations. Some even within the TfGM area! Gathurst, Appley Bridge, Pemberton, Orrell, Hall i'th' Wood, Kearsley, Moses Gate, Patricroft, Trafford Park, Humphrey Park, Navigation Road, Ashburys, Belle Vue, Ryder Brow, Fairfield, Hyde North, Flowery Field, Godley, Strines, Middlewood, Moston, Castleton... OK, there may be more (assuming Ardwick and Clifton don't count) but I think you get the picture that it's not just Burscouch Junction and places like it that suffer!
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Wow, I had no idea the problem was so widespread. I've only ever passed through most of those stations, not boarded or alighted at them.
I am of the opinion that if customers are actually offered the opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding, ticket revenues will go up
hairyhandedfool
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Postage costs nothing if you use the freepost address or a comments form (freepost).
And if I explain the shortest route rule (and the other permitted routes) but the passenger is still insistent that they are correct? Do I have to print out the NRCoC and Routeing Guide only for them to claim it is an old version or it's made up? Where does it end?
YMMV of course, but there a couple of options open to the passenger in this situation.
Whist I agree that there is a principle at stake I can not believe that there has been 67 posts (68 including mine
) regarding 30p. I am sure that the vast majority of the forum have lost more than that down the back of the sofa! 
Northern have prosecuted over less than 30p before. I'm sure that if the issue was the other way round, an RPI wouldn't shrug it off.
Heck, make it 70 posts.
The original question was to do with beginning a journey in between origin and destination and we seem to have got bogged down by all kinds of dispute!
And no, you're right. I've even heard instances of them prosecuting over a 0p difference in fare.
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Wow, I had no idea the problem was so widespread. I've only ever passed through most of those stations, not boarded or alighted at them.
I am of the opinion that if customers are actually offered the opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding, ticket revenues will go up
I dont see what the problem is, things work fine as they are. Generally the stations without ticket facilities only have a few people join each train, so the guard can easily sell tickets to them.
I would find it problematic if I was unable to purchase a ticket before boarding but others may see it differently. I've been on many a service to Blackpool, and services inbetween Liverpool and Wigan where there is no guard to sell tickets. Of course, you can pay at destination but I don't like hanging around in a queue when all I want is some fresh air after being stuck on a rickety Pacer for an hour.
Whilst I agree that there is a principle at stake I can not believe that there has been 67 posts (68 including mine
I have just found £2.20 in the washing machine, if the OP gives me his address I will post it to him. He will only have to pay for the envelope, postage and my time, £2.21 ought to cover it!
I have just found £2.20 in the washing machine, if the OP gives me his address I will post it to him. He will only have to pay for the envelope, postage and my time, £2.21 ought to cover it!
^This.
The last few times I've claimed under delay repay I've just emailed a photo / scan of the tickets in with my complaint and the TOC concerned has been more than happy with this rather than the actual paper tickets.
I still ought to charge them for my time though
Northern treat a 10p discrepancy as a very serious matter... although a court disagreed with Northern (Whist I agree that there is a principle at stake I can not believe that there has been 67 posts (68 including mine
) but Northern were extremely defiant in their response, and insisted that a 10p discrepancy is a big deal.As for the sofa anology, Northern have stated that all those 10 (or, in this case 30) pences soon add up to millions of pounds (and yes, that would require a lot of sofas
).But no, joking aside, this isn't about 30p, it's about passengers being denied rights under the NRCoC. On other occasions of the same nature, there has been significant sums involved.
Ah! The nature of forums.
My advice, for what its worth, in future if you are in the same predicament state that because you are returning to a different station (in your case Salford Central) can you have the ticket made out from there. If refused note the details down and use your own judgement as to what you will do next.
As an aside, if the OP had purchased from Salford Crescent but returned to Salford Central and was subsequently stopped by a revenue check what would be the likely outcome? A fixed penalty for £79.70 perchance? Or would common sense prevail and the OP allowed on his way without further let or hindrance?
To give an unrelated example tickets to/from Edinburgh or Haymarket are routinely accepted at either station even when there is a slight difference in fare (only a few flows have said difference to be fair).
hairyhandedfool
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Assuming no other tickets had been bought, if they were doing 'Failure to Pay' and the passenger admitted to having travelled via Salford Crescent, potentially I believe the amount due could be £81.80 (£80 fee + £1.80 Anytime Single fare from Salford Crescent) or slightly less if they use the Off Peak Day Single (£1.50), as I believe Mauldeth Road ticket office has now reopened.
If the passenger were deemed to have travelled via Manchester Victoria they would be allowed through with no penalty (stopping short).
This is news to me! I use the station several times a week to visit friends and every time I go the shutters are down.
hairyhandedfool
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Hmmm, well that was the message Northern Control sent out last week, mornings only maybe?????
Could be the case, I suppose there's no need for them to open in the afternoon because the flow is from Manchester where everyone will already have a ticket.
It is definitely open - the man who works there (most of the time) and I saw each other for the first time after about 5 months in December, but I haven't had much chance to go and use it since unfortunately. I know it spent a week or so closed once again due to (I think) vandalism shortly thereafter. But this was the next point I was going to make; the stations I listed (and Bryn, I forgot Bryn, everyone always seems to, TfGM/Northern included!) do not have ticket offices, and as they weren't selected for Northern's ticket machine installation programme (well, again, Flowery Field was, but due to repeated vandalism it was simply removed) they won't be getting any ticket purchasing facilities. But many places do have a ticket office, which is sometimes very very shabby and only open for limited hours. Mauldeth Road and Eccles are examples of recently re-opened ticket offices at stations where there was a little cabin before, and they had limited opening hours to go with that. Mauldeth Road is the only station on the Styal line not to open at all at the weekend and frankly I think it's due an extension of opening hours now it has a new ticket office! I wonder if Eccles' opening hours have changed since the new building. So anyway my point was even if a station is not on that list you still won't get a ticket at some locations ticket most of the time. A particularly striking example is Chassen Road, 06:55 - 10:00 M-F only. That will get a significant proportion of the station's users, certainly and it's hardly a bustling little station - but that's a huge proportion of the time when you're buying onboard! Chassen Road ticket office may well be closed permanently at the minute, NRE reports this due to a 'building defect' - but then it still says Mauldeth Road is closed for refurbishment and that isn't true either!
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Ahh Bryn! My favourite place for SLD - LIV splits.
I guess I agree though, that wiith most of these stations only having hourly evening and Sunday services the amount of passengers boarding thence would not justify spending on a ticket office (indeed, I know some on the Blackpool South and on the Kirkby routes are not served at all on Sundays).
Maybe I'm just unlucky
Most of my journeys arrive there at 6-7pm and leave on the last train back to Manchester. I suppose limited opening hours are better than no opening hours.The old hours, and the ones still listed on NRE are:
Monday - Friday 07:10 - 13:50
Saturday - Sunday Closed
And I've no reason to suspect that's wrong at present. But hardly anywhere is going to be open by the last train at night apart from Manchester Airport itself unfortunately!
Monday - Friday 07:10 - 13:50
Saturday - Sunday Closed
And I've no reason to suspect that's wrong at present. But hardly anywhere is going to be open by the last train at night apart from Manchester Airport itself unfortunately!
hairyhandedfool
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Merseytravel pay for the privilege as I understand it, along with the CCTV and information screens. I'm not sure TfGM's stance on the railway can be adequately explained on a forum that can be seen by children.....
It appears they're far more interested in their Metrolink trams and you'll find frequencies of every couple minutes in the City Centre. Much like if you're going between Birkenhead Hamilton Square and Liverpool via train. It's a shame TFGM couldn't implement the same level of service in the outlying areas of Manchester for commuters who have no access to Metrolink services.
Edit: I know it's the TOCs that decide how many trains they want to run but the PTE could still provide funding for areas that are poorly served. But that's never going to happen.
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The minimum is usually specified in the franchise contract. And PTEs can fund additional services, subject to having the money.
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