Ticket clerk refused to sell ticket

[transmanche]

Got any proof of this then?
Its rather a serious allegation!

Being that is was revealed on a BBC Traffic Cops programme that Bedfordshire police officers earn some kind of 'merit points' for issuing tickets; that parking attendants working for some private companies are/were given quotas; and it is well-known that conductors working for certain TOCs earn commission for on-board sales; I think speculating that the G4S gateline staff at Manchester Piccadilly might be "paid some form of commission or bonus" is a reasonable surmise, not a "serious allegation".

 

[PermitToTravel]

Jake F:
You might find that it helps, when approaching gateline staff wishing to buy a ticket, to start the encounter with "Hi, I'm in the middle of my journey". Definitely do not lie about where you started - say that you've come from Salford Crescent but want a ticket from Salford Central.

Northern regularly run short fare exercises, where everyone at a station near a large traffic objective such as Manchester (e.g. one of the Salfords) is forced to buy a ticket before boarding, and anyone who arrives at Piccadilly and says that they've come from that place is penalised or prosecuted.

 

[Merseysider]

Being that is was revealed on a BBC Traffic Cops programme that Bedfordshire police officers earn some kind of 'merit points' for issuing tickets; that parking attendants working for some private companies are/were given quotas; and it is well-known that conductors working for certain TOCs earn commission for on-board sales; I think speculating that the G4S gateline staff at Manchester Piccadilly might be "paid some form of commission or bonus" is a reasonable surmise, not a "serious allegation".

I read about these situations on the BBC website, and the end result is you find staff considering 'interpreting the rules slightly differently' in order to meet their quotas.

Jake F:
You might find that it helps, when approaching gateline staff wishing to buy a ticket, to start the encounter with "Hi, I'm in the middle of my journey". Definitely do not lie about where you started - say that you've come from Salford Crescent but want a ticket from Salford Central.

Northern regularly run short fare exercises, where everyone at a station near a large traffic objective such as Manchester (e.g. one of the Salfords) is forced to buy a ticket before boarding, and anyone who arrives at Piccadilly and says that they've come from that place is penalised or prosecuted.

I appreciate the pointer. This is the first time in several months I've not actually had a ticket upon arrival at Piccadilly. After reading some of the tales on here, I believe they take greatest exception to those who try and lie their way out of a situation / are untruthful about where their journey began. Salford Crescent ticket office closes early/mid evening most nights however and I think the staff at MAN know this and assumed this had happened when I approached her; I didn't need to explain the situation.

 

[Marton]

Jake F:
Northern regularly run short fare exercises, where everyone at a station near a large traffic objective such as Manchester (e.g. one of the Salfords) is forced to buy a ticket before boarding, and anyone who arrives at Piccadilly and says that they've come from that place is penalised or prosecuted.

So how does that work when starting "late" as can happen so as to to get a cheaper, or non existent, fare?

Also if returning to the blocked station it may be better to get a return from there.


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[bb21]

So how does that work when starting "late" as can happen so as to to get a cheaper, or non existent, fare?

Also if returning to the blocked station it may be better to get a return from there.


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In that case state where you have boarded, but also make it clear that you request a ticket from a different station in order to return there later.

You should not be refused such a sale.

Whilst acknowledging point (1), I suspect that, had the OP, having been refused the valid ticket he/she asked for, then asked for a ticket to the next station in order to comply with NRCoC Condition 3, the clerk would have accused him or her of fare evasion and refused to sell it to him or her.

I would say if the clerk refused to sell you any ticket at all for this precise reason then you have fulfilled your obligation under Condition 3. (Of course I understand that it will still come down to proving it.) The passenger should not have to overpay for their journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Whilst acknowledging point (1), I suspect that, had the OP, having been refused the valid ticket he/she asked for, then asked for a ticket to the next station in order to comply with NRCoC Condition 3, the clerk would have accused him or her of fare evasion and refused to sell it to him or her.

Doesn't Salford Crescent have a self service machine?

Besides which, not selling a ticket that is 'not valid' for a journey, would be different to, not selling a ticket that is valid for part of a journey. No-one has to mention Condition 3 if they don't want to, something like "just give me a ticket to Piccadilly, I'll sort something else out from there" would normally suffice.

That would be perfectly fine, you are entitled to your own opinion no matter how objectionable it is!

You would think so wouldn't you, but I have had a warning for less than that on another subject.

 

[Merseysider]

The passenger should not have to overpay for their journey.

And yet thousands of them do. Up until I joined this forum I was.

Doesn't Salford Crescent have a self service machine?

Indeed it does, however it is only capable of printing tickets with the origin as Salford Crescent. I've used the darn thing for nearly a year and it doesn't even sell Merseyside Saveaways. It's very limited in its capabilities.

Besides which, not selling a ticket that is 'not valid' for a journey, would be different to, not selling a ticket that is valid for part of a journey.

I think maybe the ticket clerk thought it was his responsibility to ensure I had a valid ticket for the whole of my journey.

Whilst a nice sentiment, he went OTT and was incorrect about the validity of my route.

Anyway, regardless of who was right and wrong, it is highly unprofessional to have a ticket clerk shouting at you and slamming his hands on his desk because you dared to ask for a ticket from another station ("THIS is Salford Crescent. HERE is Mauldeth Road. And OVER THERE is Salford Central. You CAN'T get a ticket for ALL THREE.")

Email sent off to Northern.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Indeed it does, however it is only capable of printing tickets with the origin as Salford Crescent. I've used the darn thing for nearly a year and it doesn't even sell Merseyside Saveaways. It's very limited in its capabilities.....

So, for the purposes of Condition 3, it is a viable option.

Why would it sell Merseyside Saveaways when it is not in the Merseyside area?

 

[Merseysider]

Why would it sell Merseyside Saveaways when it is not in the Merseyside area?

Did I say Saveaway? I meant the GM Rail Ranger. I was sorting through old tickets at the time of the post so a Freudian slip on my part.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, for the purposes of Condition 3, it is a viable option.

Indeed, for most journeys. However had I purchased a return from SLD - MAU from the TOD machine it would have cost more and would need an ODXS for me to have been able to go back to Salford Central later on in the evening as I did. And if my understanding is correct, the excess would have been zero-fare, rather than a refund for the cheaper ticket I was attempting to buy in the first place.

Railcard return SLD - MAU: £1.60
Railcard return SFD - MAU: £1.30.

I would have overpaid.

 

[bb21]

Indeed, for most journeys. However had I purchased a return from SLD - MAU from the TOD machine it would have cost more and would need an ODXS for me to have been able to go back to Salford Central later on in the evening as I did. And if my understanding is correct, the excess would have been zero-fare, rather than a refund for the cheaper ticket I was attempting to buy in the first place.

Railcard return SLD - MAU: £1.60
Railcard return SFD - MAU: £1.30.

I would have overpaid.

I would have recommended getting the excess if that is a viable workaround but obviously in your case that would not really help.

Some people say that you could buy a child single and excess that later, but I don't agree as it brings its own problems into the equation.

Really the only realistic solution in this case is for Northern to rebrief the member of staff concerned to prevent this happening again.

 

[Merseysider]

I would have recommended getting the excess if that is a viable workaround but obviously in your case that would not really help.

Some people say that you could buy a child single and excess that later, but I don't agree as it brings its own problems into the equation.

Really the only realistic solution in this case is for Northern to rebrief the member of staff concerned to prevent this happening again.

I probably wouldn't have risked buying a child ticket at all, knowing my luck I'd have run into a guard who insisted I was boarding with intent to avoid paying the correct fare, or something.

I did mention the time of the incident in my email to them and he was the only staff member in the station as far as I could see, so hopefully this won't happen again.

If the only available ticket for my journey is more expensive than the one I wish to purchase, do I have a responsibility under Condition 3 to purchase this more expensive ticket, knowing full well the chances of getting reimbursed for the value I shouldn't have paid are practically nil?

 

[Starmill]

I think it's worth pointing out that, regarding G4S (at Piccadilly, at least) not all of the staff there are with G4S. Most of the time, there will be a few of them who are actually from Northern's revenue department, which is again identifiable by the badge in their lanyards.

 

[talltim]

If the only available ticket for my journey is more expensive than the one I wish to purchase, do I have a responsibility under Condition 3 to purchase this more expensive ticket, knowing full well the chances of getting reimbursed for the value I shouldn't have paid are practically nil?

I think this is a very important question, and applicable to far more situations that yours, which it think is quite unusual. If all there is is a TVM then the chances are that you won't be able to buy tickets from another station (I'm away that some TOCs have ones which allow you to)

 

[PermitToTravel]

Those should be a franchise requirement nationally!

 

[Merseysider]

I'm aware that some TOCs have ones which allow you to

Yes, I think I read somewhere that TOD machines at York have this functionality.

The ideal solution would be to have every machine hooked up online and the full range of tickets available at each. But there is no incentive for this to happen.

I think it's worth pointing out that, regarding G4S (at Piccadilly, at least) not all of the staff there are with G4S. Most of the time, there will be a few of them who are actually from Northern's revenue department, which is again identifiable by the badge in their lanyards.

The lanyard is that thing around their neck right?

As an aside, not once in 9 months have I seen the ticket office at Mauldeth Road open. Salford Crescent and Levenshulme ticket offices are both shut most Sundays and after 6/7. And yet every time I go through Manchester Piccadilly there are anywhere between 2 and 5 Northern employees per platform exit standing idly round glancing at tickets (granted, some of these will be G4S).
Surely automatic ticket barriers would be a better investment, then we could have more staffed stations in the nearby areas?

 

[bb21]

If the only available ticket for my journey is more expensive than the one I wish to purchase, do I have a responsibility under Condition 3 to purchase this more expensive ticket, knowing full well the chances of getting reimbursed for the value I shouldn't have paid are practically nil?

I don't know to be honest, but I suspect not.

What if you only have the exact fare for your intended journey? They can't possibly insist that you overpay.

 

[Merseysider]

I don't know to be honest, but I suspect not.

What if you only have the exact fare for your intended journey? They can't possibly insist that you overpay.

I have to agree.
The problem with the majority of TOD machines in the Northern-run area, is that they accept cards only, no cash. So realistically, if the clerk refuses a passenger the ticket he/she wishes to buy and he/she has only cash, they couldn't possibly be prosecuted if an inspector found them on the train without a ticket.

 

[Yew]

Do TOC's internal regulations allow a clerk to refuse a sale? And doesnt the NRCoC state that TOC's must sell the requested ticket..

 

[Merseysider]

Do TOC's internal regulations allow a clerk to refuse a sale? And doesnt the NRCoC state that TOC's must sell the requested ticket..

I thought so myself; they are required to sell the cheapest ticket for the journey the passenger wishes to make.

 

[bb21]

I have to agree.
The problem with the majority of TOD machines in the Northern-run area, is that they accept cards only, no cash. So realistically, if the clerk refuses a passenger the ticket he/she wishes to buy and he/she has only cash, they couldn't possibly be prosecuted if an inspector found them on the train without a ticket.

True, but again we are back to the issue of proving that you were refused a sale.

In such a situation I normally pay up, and then complain. Of course this is not everyone's cup of tea.

Do TOC's internal regulations allow a clerk to refuse a sale? And doesnt the NRCoC state that TOC's must sell the requested ticket..

Well, if a ticket office clerk refuses to sell you a ticket, regardless of what the rules say, you can't force a sale. Not much you can do in such a situation.

 

[Merseysider]

True, but again we are back to the issue of proving that you were refused a sale.

In such a situation I normally pay up, and then complain. Of course this is not everyone's cup of tea.



Well, if a ticket office clerk refuses to sell you a ticket, regardless of what the rules say, you can't force a sale. Not much you can do in such a situation.

I would have thought the clerk can offer advice on a specific ticket's validity if this advice is correct, but the passenger ultimately has responsibility for ensuring they have a valid ticket, as Northern are so keen to point outhttp://www.northernrail.org/getaticket.

So if the passenger wishes to purchase a ticket that the clerk doesn't deem valid, let them!

 

[bb21]

So if the passenger wishes to purchase a ticket that the clerk doesn't deem valid, let them!

Not all staff will take this approach unfortunately, regardless of what policies and rules are in place.

 

[Merseysider]

Not all staff will take this approach unfortunately, regardless of what policies and rules are in place.

Understandable, if a passenger is at Manchester Piccadilly trying to buy a Hull - Leeds return for use on an XC service to Bristol.

It's just frustrating to have the "I know better than you" approach taken by a member of staff who doesn't actually know better.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Indeed, for most journeys. However had I purchased a return from SLD - MAU from the TOD machine it would have cost more and would need an ODXS for me to have been able to go back to Salford Central later on in the evening as I did. And if my understanding is correct, the excess would have been zero-fare, rather than a refund for the cheaper ticket I was attempting to buy in the first place.

Railcard return SLD - MAU: £1.60
Railcard return SFD - MAU: £1.30.

I would have overpaid.

Condition 3 states that you should buy a ticket for at least part of the journey you are making and exchange it for the ticket you need as soon as is reasonably practicable, a Salford Crescent-Manchester Piccadilly ticket would have sufficed in this regard.

.....I did mention the time of the incident in my email to them and he was the only staff member in the station as far as I could see, so hopefully this won't happen again.....

There are a few members of staff that operate that ticket office, but there is often only one serving in the ticket office at any one time.

....If the only available ticket for my journey is more expensive than the one I wish to purchase, do I have a responsibility under Condition 3 to purchase this more expensive ticket, knowing full well the chances of getting reimbursed for the value I shouldn't have paid are practically nil?

In my opinion it is a fairly low chance that the scenario would play out, however, if the ticket needed was valid and of a lower price than that which could be bought, the chances of getting the difference back is far from nil.

....What if you only have the exact fare for your intended journey? They can't possibly insist that you overpay.

Why not? Whose responsibility is it to hold a ticket? In all probability the situation is quite unlikely to happen, but if it did I would expect discretion to be shown.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this comment doesn't go down well on a forum that thinks it is perfectly acceptable to walk past a card only TVM if the passenger chooses not to use their card.

Do TOC's internal regulations allow a clerk to refuse a sale? And doesnt the NRCoC state that TOC's must sell the requested ticket..

A clerk must offer the cheapest available through ticket valid for the journey being made, unless someone asks for a specific ticket, I know of no regulation that forces a clerk to sell a ticket. There are situations where a clerk is required not to sell a ticket, for example, where a service cannot be provided.

I thought so myself; they are required to sell the cheapest ticket for the journey the passenger wishes to make.

They are required to offer the cheapest available through ticket, from origin to destination, that is valid for the journey being made, unless a specific request is made. In your case, Salford Crescent to Mauldeth Road.

I would have thought the clerk can offer advice on a specific ticket's validity if this advice is correct, but the passenger ultimately has responsibility for ensuring they have a valid ticket, as Northern are so keen to point outhttp://www.northernrail.org/getaticket.

So if the passenger wishes to purchase a ticket that the clerk doesn't deem valid, let them!

I would imagine there would be legal implications if a clerk sold a ticket knowing that it is not valid for the intended journey (regardless of whether it actually is valid). Indeed many on the forum have a moan at clerks who knowingly sell the wrong tickets. Am I to take it that some members of the forum are happy for clerks to sell invalid tickets?

 

[bb21]

Why not? Whose responsibility is it to hold a ticket? In all probability the situation is quite unlikely to happen, but if it did I would expect discretion to be shown.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this comment doesn't go down well on a forum that thinks it is perfectly acceptable to walk past a card only TVM if the passenger chooses not to use their card.

I don't know what you are on about.

How can a passenger be expected to overpay if he does not have the ability to overpay because he only has enough for his fare? (Yes in this case a single to Manchester could be purchased which I overlooked earlier, but this is a possibility in other situations.)

Should I be expected to bring with me more money than my correct fare?

I would imagine there would be legal implications if a clerk sold a ticket knowing that it is not valid for the intended journey (regardless of whether it actually is valid). Indeed many on the forum have a moan at clerks who knowingly sell the wrong tickets. Am I to take it that some members of the forum are happy for clerks to sell invalid tickets?

If there is a dispute, I expect the clerk to make his point clear to the passenger, but if the passenger insists, I do not believe that the clerk should refuse to sell the ticket, albeit with the phrase "Restriction Advised" stamped. If this is not felt sufficient, an endorsement can be made, eg. "Travel via XXX advised not valid" or something similar.

 

[Merseysider]

Condition 3 states that you should buy a ticket for at least part of the journey you are making and exchange it for the ticket you need as soon as is reasonably practicable, a Salford Crescent-Manchester Piccadilly ticket would have sufficed in this regard.

What should be done, and what is practical are two different things. I was delayed getting into Piccadilly and missed the connection to MAU I was supposed to be on. Had I gone to a member of staff and asked them to excess a Salford Crescent - Manchester Piccadilly single into a Salford Central - Mauldeth Road return, I would have undoubtedly missed the next connection too. Trains to Mauldeth Road are only every 30 minutes. So I would have been an hour late to destination due to the collective incompetence of Northern.

In my opinion it is a fairly low chance that the scenario would play out, however, if the ticket needed was valid and of a lower price than that which could be bought, the chances of getting the difference back is far from nil.

Northern take anywhere from 20 days to two months to reply to an email. That is, if they even reply at all.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this comment doesn't go down well on a forum that thinks it is perfectly acceptable to walk past a card only TVM if the passenger chooses not to use their card.

I agree that it is wrong to choose not to use one's card when the opportunity is present.

They are required to offer the cheapest available through ticket, from origin to destination, that is valid for the journey being made, unless a specific request is made. In your case, Salford Crescent to Mauldeth Road.

A specific request was made and the clerk chose to refuse.

Am I to take it that some members of the forum are happy for clerks to sell invalid tickets?

A good question. The answer is no. However, if a clerk encounters a customer who has a differing view of whether a ticket is valid/invalid, the matter should be escalated and a quick phone call made for example, rather than blowing volcanic ash into the passenger's face as happened yesterday.

 

[transmanche]

Condition 3 states that you should buy a ticket for at least part of the journey you are making and exchange it for the ticket you need as soon as is reasonably practicable, a Salford Crescent-Manchester Piccadilly ticket would have sufficed in this regard.

Condition 3 states:

If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey.

This condition is clearly designed for situations where a TVM does not sell the full range (or in days gone by, where there was a QuickFare machine which only had a limited selection of destinations).

In this situation there was no restriction on the availability of tickets, it's just that the clerk refused to sell it! Which is quite a different thing...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What should be done, and what is practical are two different things. I was delayed getting into Piccadilly and missed the connection to MAU I was supposed to be on. Had I gone to a member of staff and asked them to excess a Salford Crescent - Manchester Piccadilly single into a Salford Central - Mauldeth Road return, I would have undoubtedly missed the next connection too. Trains to Mauldeth Road are only every 30 minutes. So I would have been an hour late to destination due to the collective incompetence of Northern....

The wording is "as soon as is reasonably practicable" if you deem that to be missing a train to get an excess, who am I to argue (normally forum members argue quite the opposite!)....

Northern take anywhere from 20 days to two months to reply to an email. That is, if they even reply at all....

Do you honestly believe that is the only option for getting the money back?

I agree that it is wrong to choose not to use one's card when the opportunity is present.

Then I am sure you will be glad to know that you are in the exceptionally small minority.

A specific request was made and the clerk chose to refuse.

I said nothing about what happens when a request is made, other than that the clerk does not have to offer the cheapest available through fare for the journey being made.

A good question. The answer is no. However, if a clerk encounters a customer who has a differing view of whether a ticket is valid/invalid, the matter should be escalated and a quick phone call made for example, rather than blowing volcanic ash into the passenger's face as happened yesterday.

I had a passenger the other day who wanted to use a ticket from Manchester to Bebington (Merseyside). He wanted to go via Chester on the Arriva service, and from there go to Hooton, back to Warrington via Ellesmere port, and then on to Bebington via Earlestown and Liverpool.

He was happy to accept that a return ticket would not cover this, but had he argued the point (he saw "Rte Any Permitted" as "any route is permitted"), should I have phoned up another station to check? Or gone through manual after manual to check every little detail just to be sure? Would it be reasonable for me to think that because I know it is not valid, that I do not need to check it up? At what point do I draw the line and think "I am right and that's the end of it!"?

Condition 3 states:

This condition is clearly designed for situations where a TVM does not sell the full range (or in days gone by, where there was a QuickFare machine which only had a limited selection of destinations).

In this situation there was no restriction on the availability of tickets, it's just that the clerk refused to sell it! Which is quite a different thing...

What it is designed for and what it says are two different things also, but I think you can argue the point all night.

 

[transmanche]

What it is designed for and what it says are two different things also, but I think you can argue the point all night.

If you believe that a clerk refusing to sell a requested ticket means that "the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted" as per condition 3 of the NRCoC; then what would happen if the clerk refused to sell any ticket?

Clearly that condition does not and can not apply to this situation.

 

[Merseysider]

The wording is "as soon as is reasonably practicable" if you deem that to be missing a train to get an excess, who am I to argue (normally forum members argue quite the opposite!)....

Had I arrived at Manchester Piccadilly punctually, I would have had enough time to sort out the excess. I had plans however and I can't just put them back an hour because a Northern clerk didn't feel like selling the ticket I wanted.

Do you honestly believe that is the only option for getting the money back?

No, I am fully aware that claims can be made by post and through any station run by the TOC that sold the ticket. However, postage = costs and taking time out of my day to visit the station while it's open isn't always possible.

I had a passenger the other day who wanted to use a ticket from Manchester to Bebington (Merseyside). He wanted to go via Chester on the Arriva service, and from there go to Hooton, back to Warrington via Ellesmere port, and then on to Bebington via Earlestown and Liverpool.

He was happy to accept that a return ticket would not cover this, but had he argued the point (he saw "Rte Any Permitted" as "any route is permitted"), should I have phoned up another station to check? Or gone through manual after manual to check every little detail just to be sure? Would it be reasonable for me to think that because I know it is not valid, that I do not need to check it up? At what point do I draw the line and think "I am right and that's the end of it!"?

Common sense would surely prevail here by explaining the 'shortest route' rule to him as you would have done and by explaining Section 13 in the NRCoC; this literature is available online and should be available at all manned stations.