Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[8A Rail]

The platforms at roby we're never buried, just really overgrown. As you say that's now all been cut back.

My mum and dad got the train from huyton earlier today and said that both old platforms are now visible. The front of the station is also all fenced off and work to rebuild the subways seems to be fairly advanced. (They're putting lifts in).

I know!! OK I will be more precise the Platform faces became visible once they cut back the undergrowth and dug out the earth in between the faces, the latter they are doing at Huyton Station!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Mast bases east of Rainhill now extend past Lea Green towards St Helens Junction.
On the Wigan line, mast bases have now appeared on the curve from the west into St Helens Central with a couple beyond, and excavations for masts have begun on P2.

 

[DJH1971]

Mast bases east of Rainhill now extend past Lea Green towards St Helens Junction.

Getting in my neck of the woods now!

 

[YorkshireLass]

Is this the 1st OHLE-related delay? Before it's even in regular use? http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/61840.aspx

Overhead wire problems near Eccles are causing delays of up to 30 minutes between Manchester Piccadilly / Manchester Victoria and Newton-le-Willows.

Anyone know what the problem is?

 

[Eagle]

This isn't even the first time that that's happened... :P

 

[1D53]

Wires were down. As has been suggested, second time this has happened.

 

[Dixie]

I would still be interested to know when any rolling stock or loco is used to test the electrical system, please?

 

[Whistler40145]

Do we know what brought the wires down?

 

[DJH1971]

Services back to normal now.

Oh, and whilst travelling into Liverpool from St Helens Junction this morning, I noticed some more preparation work for mast bases, with holes now right up to just before the platform at St Helens Junction.

 

[rm88]

Looking promising now, I cant wait until 2016.
What will the service pattern be on the chat moss route? Seems like mostly diesels will use it because of longer services beyond electrification.

 

[ianhr]

Looking promising now, I cant wait until 2016.
What will the service pattern be on the chat moss route? Seems like mostly diesels will use it because of longer services beyond electrification.

Well, the Manchester-North Wales trains will still be diesel and use it east of Earlestown and the new Liverpool-Newcastle via Man Vic will be diesel initially.
I would have thought that diesel working from Lime Street will be greatly reduced once the St.Helen's route goes live. There will only be the Newcastle train via Chat Moss for a few more years and all the trains via the Cheshire Lines. Have I overlooked anything?

There must now surely be a good case for electrifying the Cheshire Lines to make Liverpool a virtually diesel free zone!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would have thought that diesel working from Lime Street will be greatly reduced once the St.Helen's route goes live. There will only be the Newcastle train via Chat Moss for a few more years and all the trains via the Cheshire Lines. Have I overlooked anything?

The Liverpool SP-Blackpool will stay diesel till Preston-Blackpool is wired.
That is unless they cut it back temporarily to Preston.
Same for Liverpool-Stalybridge (but the belief is that this will be cut back to Victoria).
And of course they have to find some EMUs first.

 

[DJH1971]

And of course they have to find some EMUs first.

Such as the much mooted 319's, of which has gone a bit quiet.

 

[Eagle]

Such as the much mooted 319's, of which has gone a bit quiet.

Not really quiet on that front. The ITT for the Thameslink/Southern franchise makes it clear that a number of their 319s will have been cascaded elsewhere by May 2014. Northern is really the only place they can be going to (it's still a bit too early for Great Western to need EMUs).

I'd say it's pretty much confirmed, and the only reason that there isn't an official announcement yet is that the paperwork hasn't been sorted and signed.

 

[Class377/5]

Not really quiet on that front. The ITT for the Thameslink/Southern franchise makes it clear that a number of their 319s will have been cascaded elsewhere by May 2014. Northern is really the only place they can be going to (it's still a bit too early for Great Western to need EMUs).

I'd say it's pretty much confirmed, and the only reason that there isn't an official announcement yet is that the paperwork hasn't been sorted and signed.

Its curious that they release the units in May as Northern doesn't have any need until December. Sounds like a refurbishment of some kind is going to happen, although the rumors are it isn't going to be quite as big as initially stated.

When the DfT believes 13x EMUs are required for December 14. Initially it was expected that more would be released with the timetable change for Thameslink allowing for 12 units but the ITT doesn't seem to support this.

As for the paperwork, I'm sure its a headache with four TOCs involved and multiple owning groups, not to mention bidders of TSGN as well with the DfT in the middle.

 

[tom1649]

Its curious that they release the units in May as Northern doesn't have any need until December. Sounds like a refurbishment of some kind is going to happen, although the rumors are it isn't going to be quite as big as initially stated.

Perhaps they'll use some of them initially for training and to supplement the 323s, of which there are barely enough to cover all the diagrams on Northern's current electric routes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Perhaps they'll use some of them initially for training and to supplement the 323s, of which there are barely enough to cover all the diagrams on Northern's current electric routes.

The EMU types concerned (317 and 319) are pretty much unknown in the north west.
Northern will need plenty of time for depot and crew training.
No doubt NR will want to run clearance/performance tests as well.
I think the last use of a similar type (322) in the area was the disastrous Man Airport-Euston service around 1999.

It's not at all clear if the new EMUs will interwork with the 323s (which are based at Longsight), or be kept separate (based at Allerton).
On top of which Northern's franchise extension is not yet finalised.
Plus the refurb possibilities.
Then NR/BB have to finish the Phase 2 wiring more punctually than Phase 1.

 

[Manchester77]

If they're not needed immediately then I'd imagine they would have some kind of refresh before entering service. I think its something like 7 319s leaving FCC in May so they won't needed many for training that would allow at the bare minimum one unit to go off and get vinyled into the northern livery and probably have the stripes moquette installed as well as maybe a deep clean or something. I doubt we'll see any major refurbishment before the start of the new franchise - and they're hardly in a dire condition on thameslink anyway!

 

[Eagle]

317/7s might need a bit of work too, as they're currently in cold storage (at Eastleigh IIRC).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Class 317/319 are also equipped for Driver Only Operation - in fact the 317s were the very first to be so used out of St Pancras in 1982.
I don't know if Northern has any plans for this, but that is another consideration for their rollout in the north.
It would need the relevant station equipment installed as well on the routes chosen.
(Exit, pursued by a crow... )

 

[Manchester77]

Don't think northern do have any plans for it, certainly nothing been said about it

 

[Class377/5]

If they're not needed immediately then I'd imagine they would have some kind of refresh before entering service. I think its something like 7 319s leaving FCC in May so they won't needed many for training that would allow at the bare minimum one unit to go off and get vinyled into the northern livery and probably have the stripes moquette installed as well as maybe a deep clean or something. I doubt we'll see any major refurbishment before the start of the new franchise - and they're hardly in a dire condition on thameslink anyway!

The 319/3 & /4 were refurbished 2007-2010. They are already having a deep clean.

The 319/0 need work as they are knackered.

The 319/2 aren't in that bad a state to be fair.

And it's six 319s freed in May. But after you've got that six that could be it with nothing officially freed until the first 387 in May 2015. There is the chance that six more can be made spare in December 14 but it seems to have gone all quiet on that front.

 

[Manchester77]

Would those possible six be made free by the 377/2s off the East Croydon - Milton Keynes being displaced by the 377/7s? And would FCC choose which 319s they release or does the DfT/ROSCO?

 

[Class377/5]

Would those possible six be made free by the 377/2s off the East Croydon - Milton Keynes being displaced by the 377/7s? And would FCC choose which 319s they release or does the DfT/ROSCO?

The DfT have announced in the TSGN ITT that the 377/7 will release 377/2 to go to Thameslink with 6x 319/3 off to pastures new. Its the DfT and TOSCO deciding not FCC.

 

[SF-02]

If the 317/7 don't go to northern what will happen to them? They are bring left to rot when capacity is needed on the network. Same as the 508/2 from southeastern that were withdrawn just 2 years after refurbishment and left until unusable, despite a need elsewhere for the class 466's which replaced them.

 

[DJH1971]

If the 317/7 don't go to northern what will happen to them? They are bring left to rot when capacity is needed on the network. Same as the 508/2 from southeastern that were withdrawn just 2 years after refurbishment and left until unusable, despite a need elsewhere for the class 466's which replaced them.

All the more reason for them to come up here, and rid us of those 'nodding donkeys'!

 

[Eagle]

I'm optimistic about the 317/7s reentering service. It's not like the 508/2s, which despite the interior refurbishment were getting near the end of their usable life (I believe the Merseyrail ones have had a more thorough life extension).

Plus of course AC-only units are a lot easier to find a home for than DC-only units, particularly in this age of new OHL.

 

[Manchester77]

The DfT have announced in the TSGN ITT that the 377/7 will release 377/2 to go to Thameslink with 6x 319/3 off to pastures new. Its the DfT and TOSCO deciding not FCC.

Thanks for explanation

I'm optimistic about the 317/7s reentering service. It's not like the 508/2s, which despite the interior refurbishment were getting near the end of their usable life (I believe the Merseyrail ones have had a more thorough life extension).
Plus of course AC-only units are a lot easier to find a home for than DC-only units, particularly in this age of new OHL.

Quite even if they are just as an interim before the ex-Thameslink units come up its still better than DMUs running under new wires.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All the more reason for them to come up here, and rid us of those 'nodding donkeys'!

Nah, they'll just go around in pairs for mutual protection...

 

[DJH1971]

Nah, they'll just go around in pairs for mutual protection...

These units are like a ship on tracks.