Perennial Service Suggestions

[YorkshireBear]

Looking online it is actually more efficient from Huddersfield to London to go via Piccadilly! More options per hour at 3 and also! only 5 minutes slower than Westgate, although of course Manchester is only the end of a branch of the WCML.... and the exact same on the day price for both routes too...

See above Day Tripper

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Well, if you want to use the GC service from Kirkgate then there's even less need for a direct service from Huddersfield to Westgate, surely?



AFAICR the Huddersfield to Westgate services cross the southbound line to get to the northbound line then shunt up to the sidings by the prison, thus stopping trains in either direction on the ECML.

Then they cross back over the two lines of the ECML to get back down to Kirkgate on their journey back to Huddersfield, thus stopping any other trains.

Seems a waste of capacity on a busy section of railway through Westgate.

They don't "stop" anything, they don't enter the station until the way is clear.

If the Signaller isn't upto the job, that's a different matter.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They don't "stop" anything, they don't enter the station until the way is clear.

If the Signaller isn't upto the job, that's a different matter.

Yes but it is capacity that could be used elsewhere is the point he is making.

I think the service is needed, but more needs to be made of it. Personally i would have a Leeds circular Local service. Not one from Huddersfield.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

See above Day Tripper

Yes. And?

Why do you keep harping on as though the Trains don't serve anything but Huddersfield.

1 stopper from Huddersfield to Leeds.
1 stopper from Huddersfield to wakefield.

The Huddersfield Train almost always comes in at 13 at Leeds. The London Train departs from 8 or even further away.

The Huddersfield Train almost always arrives onto 1 at Westgate, the SAME platform the London train leaves from.

40 miss's quicker, same platform change, no competition.

 

[tbtc]

They don't "stop" anything, they don't enter the station until the way is clear

They waste capacity on both lines which stops any additional services from running through Westgate (from Leeds to Doncaster/ Sheffield/ Birmingham/ London etc).

And, having commuted from Sheffield to Leeds for a while, I'm aware of how tight things are on the route through Westgate.

The Huddersfield Train almost always comes in at 13 at Leeds. The London Train departs from 8 or even further away

So your local train doesn't provide a same platform interchange at Leeds station? Same could be said of virtually everywhere. What is it about people from Huddersfield that makes them incapable of using the bridge at Leeds?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes. And?

Why do you keep harping on as though the Trains don't serve anything but Huddersfield.

1 stopper from Huddersfield to Leeds.
1 stopper from Huddersfield to wakefield.

The Huddersfield Train almost always comes in at 13 at Leeds. The London Train departs from 8 or even further away.

The Huddersfield Train almost always arrives onto 1 at Westgate, the SAME platform the London train leaves from.

40 miss's quicker, same platform change, no competition.

it is not 40 minutes i have looked on national rail. It is 10 minutes!

1 stopper from Huddersfield to Leeds plus 4 express services.

Leeds has lifts....And 13 to 8 is not far.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

it is not 40 minutes i have looked on national rail. It is 10 minutes!

1 stopper from Huddersfield to Leeds plus 4 express services.

Leeds has lifts....And 13 to 8 is not far.

How can it be 10 min's?
It takes 20 from Huddersfield to Leeds for a start, min change at Leeds is 10, then 10-15 minimum back to Wakefield.

No, P8 to 13 isn't far, but P1 to 1 is even closer.

As for Huddesfield to Leeds, I keep pointing out that it stops at three other stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just checked. Mirfield dep @ 17:39, Arr Leeds @ 18:08
Leeds Dep @ 18:45 Arr Westgate 18:56

Or, Mirfield Dep @ 17:46 Arr Westgate 18:10

NO Competition.

 

[tbtc]

As for Huddesfield to Leeds, I keep pointing out that it stops at three other stations

Is the demand from Mirfield and Deighton to Doncaster/ Peterborough/ London really great enough to warrant this disruption to the ECML at Westgate though?

Just checked. Mirfield dep @ 17:39, Arr Leeds @ 18:08
Leeds Dep @ 18:45 Arr Westgate 18:56

Or, Mirfield Dep @ 17:46 Arr Westgate 18:10

NO Competition.

I note that you've conveniently gone for Mirfield (one train an hour to Leeds) rather than Huddersfield (four fast trains an hour, will be six in a couple of years, plus stoppers).

A fair comparison would be Huddersfield to Doncaster/ Peterborough/ London via Leeds or via Kirkgate, since this is apparently all about giving Huddersfield a connection to the ECML.

 

[YorkshireBear]

How can it be 10 min's?
It takes 20 from Huddersfield to Leeds for a start, min change at Leeds is 10, then 10-15 minimum back to Wakefield.

No, P8 to 13 isn't far, but P1 to 1 is even closer.

As for Huddesfield to Leeds, I keep pointing out that it stops at three other stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just checked. Mirfield dep @ 17:39, Arr Leeds @ 18:08
Leeds Dep @ 18:45 Arr Westgate 18:56

Or, Mirfield Dep @ 17:46 Arr Westgate 18:10

NO Competition.

I am talking about time to London not Wakefield Westgate. If people are going from Huddersfield to Wakefield then they can use Kirkgate. (it will be better once it is finished)

 

[Harlesden]

Isn't it the case that proposals by a certain Dr. R. Beeching and implemented by British Rail adversely affect the chances of suggestions put forward in this thread of being actually acted upon - simply because there is far less of a network to play with and what remains is already fully utilized. The quest for increased speed and a desire for the maximum possible safety precautions go hand in hand insofar as you cannot have high speed trains running too close together or crossing each other's path at flat junctions.

 

[6Gman]

Leeds to Weymouth Quay.

No, no! Carlisle to Weymouth Quay, via the S&C.

 

[WestCountry]

From all the way back on page 2...

I'm never convinced about the Oxford - Cambridge plans either though (is there really a big market between them, other than they have a similar class of student? in which case should we have direct trains from Durham to Bangor for those who missed out on Oxbridge?)

Don't forget that it wouldn't just link Oxford to Cambridge, it connects Cambridge and points east with the ECML and those to the MML, Chiltern route and XC at Oxford. Allowing a change or two, it's Norwich/Ipswich/Cambridge/Stevenage <-> Bedford/MK/Nuneaton/Aylesbury/Bicester/Oxford.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Is the demand from Mirfield and Deighton to Doncaster/ Peterborough/ London really great enough to warrant this disruption to the ECML at Westgate though?



I note that you've conveniently gone for Mirfield (one train an hour to Leeds) rather than Huddersfield (four fast trains an hour, will be six in a couple of years, plus stoppers).

A fair comparison would be Huddersfield to Doncaster/ Peterborough/ London via Leeds or via Kirkgate, since this is apparently all about giving Huddersfield a connection to the ECML.

No, the train in question is to serve the local stations between Huddersfield and Wakefield.

Huddersfield to Westgate is always faster and more convenient.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am talking about time to London not Wakefield Westgate. If people are going from Huddersfield to Wakefield then they can use Kirkgate. (it will be better once it is finished)

Well, for a start, if you leave Mirfield 7 min's later, you can get to London 30 min's earlier.

 

[YorkshireBear]

No, the train in question is to serve the local stations between Huddersfield and Wakefield.

Huddersfield to Westgate is always faster and more convenient.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well, for a start, if you leave Mirfield 7 min's later, you can get to London 30 min's earlier.

Mirfield? It is not exactly a major station! We were talking about Huddersfield and you changed it to Mirfield. Frankly neither me or the Dft are going to give huge consideration to Mirfield London Journeys.... especially when they have direct trains anyway.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Mirfield? It is not exactly a major station! We were talking about Huddersfield and you changed it to Mirfield. Frankly neither me or the Dft are going to give huge consideration to Mirfield London Journeys.... especially when they have direct trains anyway.

Only 3 per day from Mirfield to London.

Anyway:
Even the train that leaves Huddersfield for Leeds immediately before the Wakefield stopper, connects with the London Train 30 min's after the Train you can catch from Westgate if you go there direct.

 

[Moonshot]

Isn't it the case that proposals by a certain Dr. R. Beeching and implemented by British Rail adversely affect the chances of suggestions put forward in this thread of being actually acted upon - simply because there is far less of a network to play with and what remains is already fully utilized. The quest for increased speed and a desire for the maximum possible safety precautions go hand in hand insofar as you cannot have high speed trains running too close together or crossing each other's path at flat junctions.

ah ha.....the voice of reason !! This is a point conveniently forgotten by so many posters. The trade offs for implementing new ideas are not insubstantial......and nowhere was this more highlighted by Network Rails response to the " 51m " proposals for WCML in lieu of HS2. Another more salient point is that on an average day, the number of seats available on rail services far outweigh the number of actual passengers, which puts the problem of overcrowding in perspective!!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Mirfield? It is not exactly a major station! We were talking about Huddersfield and you changed it to Mirfield. Frankly neither me or the Dft are going to give huge consideration to Mirfield London Journeys.... especially when they have direct trains anyway.

Mirfield has more people using it at peak times than any other unstaffed station on the Huddersfield line.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Only 3 per day from Mirfield to London.

Anyway:
Even the train that leaves Huddersfield for Leeds immediately before the Wakefield stopper, connects with the London Train 30 min's after the Train you can catch from Westgate if you go there direct.

But you are comparing at a given time....

I give up now.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

But you are comparing at a given time....

I give up now.

Jolly good.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Jolly good.

Note that is give up because you keep changing the goalposts not because you are correct

 

[tbtc]

From all the way back on page 2...

Don't forget that it wouldn't just link Oxford to Cambridge, it connects Cambridge and points east with the ECML and those to the MML, Chiltern route and XC at Oxford. Allowing a change or two, it's Norwich/Ipswich/Cambridge/Stevenage <-> Bedford/MK/Nuneaton/Aylesbury/Bicester/Oxford.

I'm all for the EW link, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying that people always talk about "Oxford to Cambridge" as if there's going to be a huge market between the two places - you could run an EW service from Reading to Peterborough via Watford or an EW service from Didcot to Ipswich via Luton (both of which would cater to intermediate flows, provide links to the longer distance main lines out of London etc).

We enthusiasts do seem to be fixated on there being some demand between the two terminal points of a service and therefore assume sometimes that there must be a significant demand to get from (say) Norwich to Liverpool, that's all.

Mirfield has more people using it at peak times than any other unstaffed station on the Huddersfield line.

That has to be the mildest claim to fame I've seen in a long time...

 

[YorkshireBear]

That has to be the mildest claim to fame I've seen in a long time...

I was particularly impressed with the straw clutching being shown in that statement, it was upon seeing that i stopped arguing...

 

[Darren R]

I appear to have opened a can of worms with my fairly innocuous suggestion at running the Huddersfield - Wakefields on to York instead of Westgate! (Although I'm not sure why!) In the original posting I said the Hudds - Westgates were "largely unneccessary" based on the fact that Hud has a very regular and fast service to Leeds, which in turn has half-hourly trains to King's Cross. As opposed to the hourly fast between Huddersfield and Leeds that didn't connect very well into the hourly to King's Cross in the days of BR, when the service began. Passenger loadings on the shuttle to Westgate are not huge (with the exception of Mirfield it seems), which seems to suggest that passengers to south of Wakefield are choosing to travel via Leeds. Or there just aren't very many of them!

 

[Bevan Price]

Why shouldn't there be fast services up the S&C? And why will the line speeds always be slow? I dont know the line at all.

From what I can see there are some sizeable places along the route for a Nottingham-Glasgow eg Leeds, Skipton, Carlisle so it could make sense. Or could it make more sense to run via the ECML or WCML?

The only sizeable place between Leeds & Carlisle is Keighley.

If the Hope Valley ever gets electrified, a Nottingham - Sheffield - Manchester - Preston - Glasgow service might be feasible, but unlikely to be more than a few trains per day.
Leeds to Scotland will probably remain an ECML-only service. I doubt that the Settle & Carlisle will see any really fast services again.

 

[billio]

What route would a potential Glasgow-Nottingham service take? S&C to Leeds then reversing out of Leeds and heading down the MML (via/avoiding Doncaster)?

I hope that this arrangement might prevent them having the Knottingley and the Nottingham services in the same bay platform at the same time. It's very easy to get mixed up .

 

[Bevan Price]

No, no! Carlisle to Weymouth Quay, via the S&C.

No. Balloch Pier to Weymouth Quay via Workington, Shrewsbury & Central Wales line.........

 

[johnnychips]

No. Balloch Pier to Weymouth Quay via Workington, Shrewsbury & Central Wales line.........

Now you're getting into the territory of this forum's esteemed quiz area several sections below - what's the longest journey you can have without reversing and continuing south

Afterthought: PLEASE don't try and answer this!

 

[quarella]

Some of these suggestions make sense, some are fanciful but for a reasonably fast change to a service then it has to benefit the director of a TOC. To get it changed extremely quickly it benefits a director's wife.

NB Female directors are available.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Note that is give up because you keep changing the goalposts not because you are correct

Nope, it's because you can't proove I'm wrong.

 

[Buttsy]

Nope, it's because you can't proove I'm wrong.

My initial comment was based on the fact you said that Huddersfield - Westgate was the only connection to the ECML. I proved this wrong because Huddersfield also connects, very regularly, with the same branch of the EMCL at Leeds that you connect to at Westgate. You have since 'moved the goalposts' by referring to Mirfield rather than Huddersfield. You won't let it lie that based on your original comment, you were factually incorrect.

I would like a service from my local station that connects with the ECML south of Doncaster, but until the Bedford - ECML link is built as part of E-W, I don't get even one, whereas, from the main station in your area, HUDDERSFIELD, you have 2 links, one of which is very frequent.

I do think the Huddersfield - Westgate services would be better serving Castleford and York and, if possible, the Knottingley - Kirkgate service extended to Leeds via Westgate.