Perennial Service Suggestions

[Morgsie]

Here's one:

Bournemouth to Salisbury, possible extensions at either end aswell

 

[Andrew Nelson]

My initial comment was based on the fact you said that Huddersfield - Westgate was the only connection to the ECML.

Wrong, I said there were no services ON TO the ECML. the Huddersfield TPX's connect to, but don't go ON TO the ECML south.

I proved this wrong because Huddersfield also connects, very regularly, with the same branch of the EMCL at Leeds that you connect to at Westgate..

Yes, it connects many miles north of Wakefield, and adds at least 40 min's onto a journey.

You have since 'moved the goalposts' by referring to Mirfield rather than Huddersfield. You won't let it lie that based on your original comment, you were factually incorrect.

Again wrong, I said the shuttle is not just for Huddersfield, it is serving 3 other Stations, plus Passenger from Barnsley Darton and such, connecting to Westgate.

I would like a service from my local station that connects with the ECML south of Doncaster, but until the Bedford - ECML link is built as part of E-W, I don't get even one, whereas, from the main station in your area, HUDDERSFIELD, you have 2 links, one of which is very frequent...

One that takes 40 min's longer, and costs more, and one far quicker and direct.

I do think the Huddersfield - Westgate services would be better serving Castleford and York and, if possible, the Knottingley - Kirkgate service extended to Leeds via Westgate.

Nobody wants to go from Huddersfield to Castleford.
There are plenty of services between Wakefield and Castleford.
Anybody wanting to go from Huddersfield to York has a direct TPX.

 

[tbtc]

The Huddersfield Train almost always comes in at 13 at Leeds. The London Train departs from 8 or even further away

Wrong, I said there were no services ON TO the ECML. the Huddersfield TPX's connect to, but don't go ON TO the ECML south

Is Leeds station on the ECML? Or is only platform 8 on the ECML as far as you are concerned?

 

[YorkshireBear]

a collection of information

Right you complain about links onto the ECML so presuming that is your goal you want to travel on the ECML, which means that once an hour you can get a link via wakefield, twice an hour you can get a link via Leeds that is 10 minutes longer not 40 minutes! It is not fair to compare at a certain time...

Leeds is on the ECML!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By being at the end of the branch by its very definition it is on the ECML!!!!

Who wants to go from Huddersfield to Castleford not many, the point of the service is for Wakefield and Castleford to York and we came up with an idea that is operationally sensible. Who wants to go from Birchwood to Malton? There is still a service between the two.

You have changed the goalposts of this discussion so many times will you please state the parameters you are using to compare....

 

[Buttsy]

Yes, it connects many miles north of Wakefield, and adds at least 40 min's onto a journey.

NRE shows that the half-hourly service Leeds-London being connected into from Huddersfield via Leeds and via Wakefield. The Wakefield connection takes 2h 53mins to get to King's Cross, the Leeds connection takes 3hr 3mins, 10 minutes difference, not 40.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wrong, I said there were no services ON TO the ECML. the Huddersfield TPX's connect to, but don't go ON TO the ECML south.

The Westgate service may go onto the ECML south, but operationally, I'm sure it would be preferred if it didn't. If it pulled into a southern bay at Westgate, would you insist it still goes onto the south EMCL? It's not as if the service goes beyond Westgate to Doncaster, which would be going onto ECML south. Both the Leeds and Wakefield services connect onto the south ECML and so offer 2 journey opportunities to join southbound ECML services.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Is Leeds station on the ECML? Or is only platform 8 on the ECML as far as you are concerned?

It's on the end of the Leeds branch.

It's not ON the ECML.

Same as Harrogate or Skipton aren't ON the ECML, but have trains ON TO it.

There are NO Trains from Huddersfield ON TO the ECML to London.

 

[Buttsy]

Again wrong, I said the shuttle is not just for Huddersfield, it is serving 3 other Stations, plus Passenger from Barnsley Darton and such, connecting to Westgate.

Not according to your original post on this matter:

Why is it "unnecessary"? There are no direct services from Huddersfield onto the ECML.

Only 3 Trains a day from Brighouse or Mirfield is in no way a replacement for the now more reliable shuttles from Huddersfield to Westgate.

You quite clearly refer to just Huddersfield and only refer to the 'other' stations as having a through service to London. The inference from your statement is that Huddersfield - EMCL connections, and not the other stations you now bring into the argument, is the raison d'etre for the Huddersfield - Westgate shuttle.

 

[Tomnick]

It's on the end of the Leeds branch.

It's not ON the ECML.

Same as Harrogate or Skipton aren't ON the ECML, but have trains ON TO it.

There are NO Trains from Huddersfield ON TO the ECML to London.

What (officially) is the ECML and what isn't the ECML? The closest I can find is the engineers' line reference ECM, but I can't see how that makes any difference whatsoever to the length or convenience of passengers' journeys.

Personally, I think it'd be more productive to run the Wakefield - Knottingley trains up to Westgate than the half empty shuttle from Huddersfield.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Not according to your original post on this matter:



You quite clearly refer to just Huddersfield and only refer to the 'other' stations as having a through service to London. The inference from your statement is that Huddersfield - EMCL connections, and not the other stations you now bring into the argument, is the raison d'etre for the Huddersfield - Westgate shuttle.

As (if you can) read, it says very clearly, there are NO Trains ON TO the ECML. ON TO, get it?
I never ever said there were no connecting services, I said quite correctly, that there are NO Trains from Huddersfield ON TO the ECML going to London.

Please feel free to show me a single service onto the ECML from Huddersfield to London.

You can't as there are NONE.

You wrongly suggest that there are Trains onto the ECML from Huddersfield to London. There are merely CONNECTIONS. You can CONNECT at Leeds, or you can CONNECT at Wakefield far quicker, and more conveniently.

There are very few trains from Huddersfield that will allow a connection at Leeds any faster or cheaper than the Huddersfield - Westgate shuttle.

 

[Buttsy]

As (if you can) read, it says very clearly, there are NO Trains ON TO the ECML. ON TO, get it?
I never ever said there were no connecting services, I said quite correctly, that there are NO Trains from Huddersfield ON TO the ECML going to London.

Please feel free to show me a single service onto the ECML from Huddersfield to London.

You can't as there are NONE.

You wrongly suggest that there are Trains onto the ECML from Huddersfield to London. There are merely CONNECTIONS. You can CONNECT at Leeds, or you can CONNECT at Wakefield far quicker, and more conveniently.

There are very few trains from Huddersfield that will allow a connection at Leeds any faster or cheaper than the Huddersfield - Westgate shuttle.

Your original quote does not make London the goal. There are plenty of trains ONTO the ECML from Huddersfield. Most TPE go onto the ECML at York, which I think was raised earlier. If a station is on a particular route, then is it not possible to consider that any service that goes to that station, running onto that route?

It is now finally clear what your original point was, and, if you check my earlier responses, you may find that I agreed with your point, but the way you put it forward was unclear at best.

No, it doesn't. The shuttle serves more than just Huddersfield.

Not to mention the extra 40 min's added to a journey minimum.

And there was me thinking that Leeds was on the EMCL...

Your point is taken, but being pedantic, your statement is false.

Thank you for your abusive comment. This argument is like a bald man arguing over someone stealing their comb and accordingly, as you appear to want it, you can have the last word.

 

[tbtc]

It's on the end of the Leeds branch.

It's not ON the ECML.

Same as Harrogate or Skipton aren't ON the ECML, but have trains ON TO it.

There are NO Trains from Huddersfield ON TO the ECML to London.

???

So, we are back to this being about Huddersfield - ECML journeys rather than Mirfield?

And, if Leeds is on the Leeds branch of the ECML then surely Wakefield Westgate is on the Leeds branch of the ECML?

If Westgate is on the ECML but Leeds isn't then where does the ECML start?

And don't trains from Huddersfield also run to York, Newcastle etc (which were on the ECML last time I checked), as Buttsy pointed out?

Would the best thing be to extend the Huddersfield - Wakefield Kirkgate beyond to serve Pontefract, Adwick and Doncaster (following the GC route), if its so important for Huddersfield to have a link to the proper ECML (and not just the "branch" to Leeds)?

 

[Eagle]

Here's one:

Bournemouth to Salisbury, possible extensions at either end aswell

No, that would take ages compared to the direct bus, because you'd have to go all the way to Southampton and back.

Unless you're planning on reversing various closures in the area and reinstating the 1950s service from Salisbury to Bournemouth West via Wimborne.

 

[Starmill]

You wrongly suggest that there are Trains onto the ECML from Huddersfield to London. There are merely CONNECTIONS. You can CONNECT at Leeds, or you can CONNECT at Wakefield far quicker, and more conveniently.

OR, you could drop this nonsense and CONNECT at Manchester like all the sensible people :P

Nope, it's because you can't proove I'm wrong.

I'm afraid you're very wrong. If it really were no contest you'd need to 2tph to Westgate from Huddersfield, to connect with the xx:45 departure from Leeds. This is at present inaccessible to you if you insist on going via Kirkgate and Westgate. Now in the case of the xx:15 departure, you do appear to be correct in that if the link from Huddersfield to Westgate were abolished, it would be required to leave a few minutes earlier to connect with this at Leeds.

But back to my first point, the limiting factor in journeys Huddersfield - London via Piccadilly is Manchester - London trains, which are 3 times more frequent than the service to Westgate. That's no contest

 

[Andrew Nelson]

OR, you could drop this nonsense and CONNECT at Manchester like all the sensible people :P



I'm afraid you're very wrong. If it really were no contest you'd need to 2tph to Westgate from Huddersfield, to connect with the xx:45 departure from Leeds. This is at present inaccessible to you if you insist on going via Kirkgate and Westgate. Now in the case of the xx:15 departure, you do appear to be correct in that if the link from Huddersfield to Westgate were abolished, it would be required to leave a few minutes earlier to connect with this at Leeds.

But back to my first point, the limiting factor in journeys Huddersfield - London via Piccadilly is Manchester - London trains, which are 3 times more frequent than the service to Westgate. That's no contest

Since when were there 6 Trains from Manchester to London?

Apart from the fact that soon there will be only 2 TPH Huddersfield to Piccadilly anyway. And taking a far longer time, so yet again, Huddersfield to Wakefield direct will STILL be the quickest.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Oh dear god day tripper!
3 times more regulat than huddersfield westgate service you talk about so fondly. Can you please explain to me where it says huddersfield piccadilly is going to to 2 trains per hour? It is to remain at 4 with two going via victoria not guide bridge. Also the stopper is to be rerouted there too so 5 actually.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Oh dear god day tripper!
3 times more regulat than huddersfield westgate service you talk about so fondly. Can you please explain to me where it says huddersfield piccadilly is going to to 2 trains per hour? It is to remain at 4 with two going via victoria not guide bridge. Also the stopper is to be rerouted there too so 5 actually.

A much longer journey. What bit didn't you understand?

The extra train is a stopper, not a TPX.

You said there were 3 times more services from Manchester than Leeds, that's 6 TPH, again untrue.

The only way to get the London Train quicker, is to leave Huddersfield for the Leeds connection 40 min's before the xx:38 to Wakefield. Otherwise you will only be able to connect with the Train 30 min's later.

It's not rocket science, infact it's basic maths, and you still don't get it.

 

[Tomnick]

The only way to get the London Train quicker, is to leave Huddersfield for the Leeds connection 40 min's before the xx:38 to Wakefield. Otherwise you will only be able to connect with the Train 30 min's later.

1538 Huddersfield - Westgate connects with the 1615 departure from Leeds. The 1527 departure from Huddersfield arrives at Leeds in plenty of time for the 1615, and indeed the 1545 makes a six minute connection with the same if you're feeling brave. My basic maths doesn't conclude that 1527 is 40 minutes earlier than 1538, and I doubt rocket science does either.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

1538 Huddersfield - Westgate connects with the 1615 departure from Leeds. The 1527 departure from Huddersfield arrives at Leeds in plenty of time for the 1615, and indeed the 1545 makes a six minute connection with the same if you're feeling brave. My basic maths doesn't conclude that 1527 is 40 minutes earlier than 1538, and I doubt rocket science does either.

No, the minimum change at Leeds is 10, not 6 min's.

So you leave 11 min's earlier to try and catch a train with half of the minimum allowed connection time, or get the direct Train, and have a guaranteed connection?

 

[Tomnick]

No, read it again. The 1527 (leaving 11 minutes earlier than the shuttle to Westgate) arrives at 1552, allowing much more than the minimum connection.

 

[Starmill]

You said there were 3 times more services from Manchester than Leeds, that's 6 TPH, again untrue.

There are 3 times as many trains from Manchester to London as there are from Huddersfield to Westgate. The comparison is relevant given that these are the least frequent services on each route, either Huddersfield - Westgate - London or Huddersfield - Piccadilly - London.

THUS, sticking to your option rigorously, there is 1 journey per hour. With mine, there are 3. I concede that your 1 may be faster, but 1*3=3 last time I checked.

Let's try this in people terms. While you are making the comparison that people need to leave X mins BEFORE the Westgate shuttle to beat that arrival time in London, if somebody were to arrive, say, at exactly midday - what would you suggest? That they wait for the 12:38 to Westgate? Or use the 12:16 and chance it at Leeds for a 15:01 arrival? Or stay on till Selby and not chance it there for a 15:10 arrival? OR wait at Huddersfield until 12:26, 10 mins connection at Manchester for a 15:23 arrival?

No, clearly they should wait for the 12:38 and a 15:27 arrival. Remember this situation is equally as likely as somebody arriving at exactly 12:30, in good time for the Westgate shuttle.

 

[A0]

Project Rio was the name given to the services operated by Midland Mainline between London St Pancras, Leicester and Manchester Piccadilly between June 2003 and September 2004. It was operated to retain a direct link between London and Manchester when the West Coast Main Line was closed for engineering works and there would be no access via that route or it's diversions. Named after Rio Ferdinand who had just transferred from Leeds United to Manchester Utd at the time of the services commencing.

Wasn't that also a bit of a joke name as MML were trying to get SRA approval for a regular St P - Leeds service, but instead were told to do the Manchester services instead?

Ironically MML then got the 7 car Meridians to run the Leeds service but were never given the go-ahead by the SRA.

The service called at Luton, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly and was operated by ex Virgin CrossCountry InterCity 125s, replaced by the Virgin Voyagers a few months before. They didn't serve Derby or Sheffield - avoiding the former by using the Erewash Valley Line passing Toton, and then the latter by means of the Dore Curve.

The services were popular with people from Northamptonshire and the East Midlands, hence various people asking for them, or similar, to be reinstated since their withdrawal.

Somebody else has commented on the low usage. But the other issue this had was it meant Nottingham dropped to an hourly service to London because the Rio service used the Nottingham (I think semi-fast's) path from Leicester to St P - which explains the Market Harboro', Kettering, Wellingborough calls.

Had it been better used, it might have stood a chance, but frankly the Nottingham service which was truncated to Leicester for the duration, had far better loadings.

 

[Eagle]

Ironically MML then got the 7 car Meridians to run the Leeds service but were never given the go-ahead by the SRA.

Midland Mainline never had 7-car 222s. They received 9-car 222s, which they took a coach out of each (and put it in a 4-car) to make them 8-car.

It was EMT who repeated that process giving the current 7-car formations.

 

[Darren R]

I must say this thread has got a whole lot more entertaining than I was expecting it to! Has anyone got any popcorn?

Just out of curiosity, do trains from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston count as being WCML services?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I must say this thread has got a whole lot more entertaining than I was expecting it to! Has anyone got any popcorn?

Just out of curiosity, do trains from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston count as being WCML services?

Nope clearly not :P

 

[A0]

Midland Mainline never had 7-car 222s. They received 9-car 222s, which they took a coach out of each (and put it in a 4-car) to make them 8-car.

It was EMT who repeated that process giving the current 7-car formations.

Brain fade there - I stand corrected. Maybe I should have said "long" Meridians.

In terms of perennial service suggestions - a regular service from Corby northwards.

Coalville services seems to be another one which crops up regularly as well.

 

[43074]

Wasn't that also a bit of a joke name as MML were trying to get SRA approval for a regular St P - Leeds service, but instead were told to do the Manchester services instead?

Ironically MML then got the 7 car Meridians to run the Leeds service but were never given the go-ahead by the SRA.

No, the St P - Leeds service was proposed by the SRA in the East Midlands RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) 2003, and MML ordered the Meridians in late 2002 on the assumption that this would materialise. The Manchester service was operated by MML as an alternative to the WCML, under the SRA's instruction. I was under the impression the services were quite well used - I remember using the service when I would have been 6/7, so only vague memories, but I thought they were popular - I certainly liked them, not least for the Toton depot flypast.

Incidentally, I wrote to MML in 2005 regarding the future of the nine-car Meridians and suggested extending off peak London to Sheffield services to Leeds (I was only 7 at the time - so didn't understand about lack of paths or the faster ECML journey time). Even in June 2005 ''no decision had been made as yet on the use of [their] nine car Meridian trains'', despite the fact the trains were well over a year old by that time.

In terms of perennial service suggestions - a regular service from Corby northwards.

Coalville services seems to be another one which crops up regularly as well.

I think the Coalville service might be on someone's agenda actually, but shortage of money and rolling stock is preventing it. There was a local news piece on EMT and the Coalville line a few months back and it suggested that trains may run again. I would personally like to see Leicester to Burton-on-Trent re-introduced to give improved local transport links between Leicester and North West Leicestershire - an area well served by bus and road connectivity, but lacking in rail connectivity.

EDIT: There's also a chord missing at Knighton Junction to enable Coalville trains to run direct from that line to Leicester station.

The Corby services to the North are constrained by lack of suitable rolling stock to operate the service with - I don't see why this is the case when a 222 or a 15x would be acceptable in my view, but there we go.

 

[Eagle]

The problem with the Coalville line is that there's a chord missing at the Leicester end. (Unless you want to reverse trains at South Wigston or something.)

That chord was actually planned to be built by BR in the 1990s, but after privatization, Railtrack dropped the plans.

 

[43074]

The problem with the Coalville line is that there's a chord missing at the Leicester end. (Unless you want to reverse trains at South Wigston or something.)

Yes, forgot about that

(You could actually reverse trains in the Up/Down Slow at Knighton Junction as the S-stock delivery moves do, avoiding them having to run to South Wigston).

 

[Eagle]

Yeah, but I'm just thinking that if you're having to reverse somewhere, you might as well do it at South Wigston (which as a suburban station deserves a better service than the 1tp2h it gets).

 

[Tomnick]

Neither is a practical option at present anyway - South Wigston has no signalled move (at least not to passenger standards) back towards Leicester, and anything reversing there would be in the way anyway, and the Up/Dn Goods at Knighton is often occupied by either a reversing movement or a recessed freight.