Perennial Service Suggestions

[cuccir]

In light of a spate of 'my idea for a ..... service' threads, I was wondering what people thought that the 'perennial' suggestions for new services were, and why these didn't come about.

The two that I've seen repeatedly mentioned are:

Nottingham-Glasgow via Leeds and Carlisle
Blackpool - London

The Blackpool one seems to be doomed by lack of WCML capacity and a reluctance to open up the long-distance west coast journeys to open access operators to the same extent that has happened on the east. Nottingham-Glasgow seems to suffer from a lack of a proven business case, and the possibility that 'mainline' services over the Settle & Carlisle are more of an enthusiasts' dream than an actual necessity.

What other recurring suggestions do we have, and why have they not come about? Over existing lines rather than reopening please!

 

[Spaceflower]

Middlesbrough-London seems common.

 

[Suraggu]

Virgin trains on their franchise had a No Competition rule on its network, which affected the WSMR services.
When Grand Central put forward a proposal of Blackpool -London services, one of the many reasons why it was rejected was that the revenue would be abstracted from current services rather than creating new revenue.

 

[SeanG]

Liverpool - Glasgow is also common

 

[Buttsy]

Oxford - Bristol

Was quite popular in the late 90s/early 00s but abandoned due to lack of stock/paths.

 

[Moonshot]

There are always perennial suggestions for new services, though in my experience these tend to come from rail enthusiasts who tend to have little understanding of the wider non economic benefits and costs etc....a fact just recently underlined by David Higgins at Network Rail who announced they were moving to a risk based analysis of rail maintainance rather than the " gold plated " approach of the last few years....

You also have to add in the distorting effect of subsidy and regulating fares......you simply cannot make a sound business case for any service whilst these mechanisms are in place.

 

[alwaystouchout]

What route would a potential Glasgow-Nottingham service take? S&C to Leeds then reversing out of Leeds and heading down the MML (via/avoiding Doncaster)?

Re-extension of CrossCountry services from Reading to Gatwick Airport and Brighton?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Leeds/Bradford-Barrow via Hellifield & Carnforth seems to crop up a lot...:roll:

 

[swcovas]

Shrewsbury - London

 

[Buttsy]

Blackpool - London

 

[cle]

I always thought permanent Project Rio services.

Not only for some London-Manchester competition but flows between Luton/Bedford/Leicester/Derby and Stockport/Manchester might be sizeable.

 

[Moonshot]

What is Project Rio?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

What is Project Rio?

Project Rio was a service which ran between Manchester Piccadilly and London St Pancras (via Sheffield but avoiding Derby?) about a decade ago. It ran for about eighteen months while the WCML was being upgraded. Named after Rio Ferdinand, oddly enough.


**edit**

This guy has a few photos of it. MML stock in Piccadilly station and some name plates attached to the specially branded HST power cars: http://paul3715.tripod.com/mml2.htm

 

[swt_passenger]

Brighton to Reading via Fareham and Basingstoke often gets a mention - (but not usually by me...)

 

[43074]

What is Project Rio?

Project Rio was the name given to the services operated by Midland Mainline between London St Pancras, Leicester and Manchester Piccadilly between June 2003 and September 2004. It was operated to retain a direct link between London and Manchester when the West Coast Main Line was closed for engineering works and there would be no access via that route or it's diversions. Named after Rio Ferdinand who had just transferred from Leeds United to Manchester Utd at the time of the services commencing.

The service called at Luton, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly and was operated by ex Virgin CrossCountry InterCity 125s, replaced by the Virgin Voyagers a few months before. They didn't serve Derby or Sheffield - avoiding the former by using the Erewash Valley Line passing Toton, and then the latter by means of the Dore Curve.

The services were popular with people from Northamptonshire and the East Midlands, hence various people asking for them, or similar, to be reinstated since their withdrawal.

EDIT: Cherry_Picker beat me to it!

My service suggestions would be:

• Lincoln or Nottingham to Birmingham via Leicester
• Norwich to Birmingham
• Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft or Bury St Edmunds to London Liverpool Street
• CrossCountry services to Portsmouth & Brighton (again)

 

[Class377/5]

Brighton to Rugby service.

 

[philjo]

Edinburgh-Newcastle ECML local stopping service.

 

[tbtc]

In light of a spate of 'my idea for a ..... service' threads, I was wondering what people thought that the 'perennial' suggestions for new services were, and why these didn't come about.

The two that I've seen repeatedly mentioned are:

Nottingham-Glasgow via Leeds and Carlisle
Blackpool - London

The Blackpool one seems to be doomed by lack of WCML capacity and a reluctance to open up the long-distance west coast journeys to open access operators to the same extent that has happened on the east. Nottingham-Glasgow seems to suffer from a lack of a proven business case, and the possibility that 'mainline' services over the Settle & Carlisle are more of an enthusiasts' dream than an actual necessity.

What other recurring suggestions do we have, and why have they not come about? Over existing lines rather than reopening please!

Nottingham to Carlisle feels more about trying to reinstate something that used to exist rather than a genuine need (Carlisle is a fairly small city, speeds on the S&C are always going to be slow). If Nottingham is going to get a link to somewhere new then why not to Doncaster (for connections up the ECML etc)? Nottingham has lost its services to places like Stoke and Coventry in recent years, which sound more practical than a romantic jaunt up the S&C.

Blackpool to London will probably happen in the next five years, but I miss Blackpool to Sheffield (when the current Norwich - Liverpool service had a mix of termini like Ipswich and Blackpool).

Linking places over 100 miles away is probably a futile argument, especially when you consider that clockface timetables mean that routes are fairly "simple" (so that every Nottingham service through Ely goes to Norwich whilst every Leicester service through Cambridge goes to Cambridge/ Stansted) - whilst I'm sure there's demand for Nottingham - Cambridge (or Leicester - Norwich) I guess that's the price to pay for a simple timetable.

IIRC Project Rio saw an average load of seventysomething north of Leicester. Given that this included the London - Manchester passengers (who valued a direct/ slower service), I'm not convinced that there's a huge market from Bedford/ Leicester to Stockport/ Manchester). I only used it once, from Manchester, and it was almost empty.

I'm never convinced about the Oxford - Cambridge plans either though (is there really a big market between them, other than they have a similar class of student? in which case should we have direct trains from Durham to Bangor for those who missed out on Oxbridge?)

Plenty of local suggestions - in seaside terms, I'm sure Bridlington would welcome a direct Leeds service, or Skegness would welcome a direct Sheffield service (half of Sheffielders own a caravan at Skegg). But these kind of lists are generally dominated either by direct links to London or reversing previous cuts (esp Cross Country ones).

 

[asylumxl]

Brighton to Rugby service.

So you want an extension of the old Rugby to Gatwick services 'eh?

 

[SeanG]

ECML (York)-Newcastle-Edinburgh stoppers
WCML North of Crewe stopper

 

[Manchester77]

Brighton to Glasgow/Edinburgh!
London Kings Cross to Manchester Piccadilly via Leeds
Cross country services back serving Liverpool
Have ICWC operating Manchester - Scotland services

 

[Eagle]

[anywhere] to Weymouth Quay.

I've basically given up telling people why that is completely impractical and utterly pointless. It seems people only suggest it because the track is still there (and no other reason).

 

[Spaceflower]

Leeds to Weymouth Quay.

 

[sonic2009]

Brighton to Rugby service.

Not a chance anymore at least via Weedon.

 

[tsr]

Leeds to Weymouth Quay.

I'll raise you a Mallaig-Weymouth Quay Sleeper

Seriously, though, South-West to Scotland/North of England/Midlands Sleepers & vice versa...

 

[tractakid]

Where I am to where I want to go, direct service. No intermediate stops.

No track existing at present is a feeble excuse.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Nottingham to Carlisle feels more about trying to reinstate something that used to exist rather than a genuine need (Carlisle is a fairly small city, speeds on the S&C are always going to be slow). If Nottingham is going to get a link to somewhere new then why not to Doncaster (for connections up the ECML etc)? Nottingham has lost its services to places like Stoke and Coventry in recent years, which sound more practical than a romantic jaunt up the S&C..

Yes it is a little bit. I think better links to the west rather than east, they can use Sheffield/Derby for connections North.

I would like to state that on a Sunday the Sheffield-Carlisle service, both ways it arrives full and at least 1/3 of the people stay on the train. Not bad for a once a week service.


I echo others saying local services Newcastle-Edinburgh ECML. May need more loops though.

 

[Eagle]

Nottingham to Carlisle feels more about trying to reinstate something that used to exist rather than a genuine need (Carlisle is a fairly small city, speeds on the S&C are always going to be slow).

Although I think the reasoning there is that both services are operated by Northern 158s, meaning that joining them together could potentially save a unit or two.

(Plus there is already one service a week from Carlisle to Nottingham, of course. :P)

 

[TheWalrus]

Why shouldn't there be fast services up the S&C? And why will the line speeds always be slow? I dont know the line at all.

From what I can see there are some sizeable places along the route for a Nottingham-Glasgow eg Leeds, Skipton, Carlisle so it could make sense. Or could it make more sense to run via the ECML or WCML?

 

[Eagle]

Skipton is not sizeable, it's a small market town. In fact Carlisle is barely sizeable. There is no major population centre between Leeds and Glasgow going that way. You'd serve far more people by going via the ECML, but then of course you're making the journey even longer.

The reason the SC is slow is because there's quite a bit of slow freight on the line and few or no overtaking opportunities.