UK Storms

[Bald Rick]

Someone asked this earlier but I'll ask it again, does anyone know what happened to the trains in 1987 when there was no warning? Did they hit trees? Of course there were less trains running back then.

I wonder if things would have been different way back when each stretch of line was the responsibility of a group of people or person. Would the trees get spotted sooner and dealt with. There may have been more people working back then to deal with it. I'm not saying we should go back to those days. It's not as if this happens every year. Just wondering how it might have been dealt with.

Are there any books on server weather events affecting the railways in the past?

(Having to type this again as iPad crashed, sorry if it appears, slightly differently, twice)

In '87 the storm came around 0300 on a Thursday morning, with little warning of strength. Almost all the Southern Region network was badly affected, as was the Anglia area. The national grid went down in the south for a few hours, so nothing electric could move.

Route proving trains were sent out - typically a DMU or diesel loco with a handful of staff with saws on board. (Exactly the same procedure as today). Some dealt with smallish stuff, others got themselves trapped. A few hit trees. Most staff struggled to get to their posts, eg the Southern GM Gordon Pettit (or it may have been his deputy) got no further than Woking and set up a command post there. There is the legendary story of one enterprising manager buying up every chainsaw in Wickes at Woking or somewhere with petty cash.

Anyway, routes were gradually restored over the next 4 days, with the intention of running an almost normal peak by the Monday morning. Unfortunately this was before railhead treatment trains, and the sheer quantity of leaves deposited combined with a rusty rail meant that adhesion was a major problem and the morning peak was a shambles.

The main difference was info provision. Back then if you wanted train info you listened to local radio, went to the station (who often knew nothing) or phoned the local BR telephone enquiry bureau. Unfortunately the main SR bureau was at Waterloo and few staff could get there - end result similar to when NRE goes down today when you most need it.

There's a great article in Modern Railways, Jan '88 issue I think.

 

[dk1]

Just received this email from National Express - trains obviously not so important now that they only have the one franchise

I know people who bought coach tickets this afternoon, then found an in-direct rail route & where happy to lose the money they paid rather than suffer a coach journey. Would feel exactly the same myself.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Reduced

So while they did well it certainly took a lot of time. I would hardly say we coped worse today from what you say.

 

[Bald Rick]

So while they did well it certainly took a lot of time. I would hardly say we coped worse today from what you say.

Well yes, but there were probably more trees down between Sevenoaks and Tonbridge in 87 than the whole network today.

 

[Monty]

I have to say I am rather glad today is over with, a rather trying day for all concerned (both staff and customers). Hopefully we can get back to some resemblance of a normal service tomorrow. However I reckon there is still quite a bit of debris about and the condition of the railheads will make keeping to time a bugger.

 

[Furrball]

Well amongst all the chaos I have been able to travel from Inverness to London, via Aberdeen.

The XC service that I initially went for as a way of getting south from Edinburgh (the ideas being that two options available to get to London, or a bail to my folks nearby) was very quiet as was the EC service that I changed to at Darlington once the Peterborough KX shuttle was in place

 

[Carlisle]

Well yes, but there were probably more trees down between Sevenoaks and Tonbridge in 87 than the whole network today.

I remember BR put up a poster just after that storm at many stations to illisrustrate their workload showing quite possibly that line totally covered by fallen trees for a fair length of it

 

[steamybrian]

(Having to type this again as iPad crashed, sorry if it appears, slightly differently, twice)

In '87 the storm came around 0300 on a Thursday morning, with little warning of strength. Almost all the Southern Region network was badly affected, as was the Anglia area. The national grid went down in the south for a few hours, so nothing electric could move.

Route proving trains were sent out - typically a DMU or diesel loco with a handful of staff with saws on board. (Exactly the same procedure as today). Some dealt with smallish stuff, others got themselves trapped. A few hit trees. Most staff struggled to get to their posts, eg the Southern GM Gordon Pettit (or it may have been his deputy) got no further than Woking and set up a command post there. There is the legendary story of one enterprising manager buying up every chainsaw in Wickes at Woking or somewhere with petty cash.

Anyway, routes were gradually restored over the next 4 days, with the intention of running an almost normal peak by the Monday morning. Unfortunately this was before railhead treatment trains, and the sheer quantity of leaves deposited combined with a rusty rail meant that adhesion was a major problem and the morning peak was a shambles.

The main difference was info provision. Back then if you wanted train info you listened to local radio, went to the station (who often knew nothing) or phoned the local BR telephone enquiry bureau. Unfortunately the main SR bureau was at Waterloo and few staff could get there - end result similar to when NRE goes down today when you most need it.

There's a great article in Modern Railways, Jan '88 issue I think.

An excellent summary ..!
I was working for BR- Southern Region in October 1987 and there were NO trains in the Southern Region until the Monday morning.
Most lines were blocked, many staff could not get to work so all trains cancelled. In addition in 1987 there was heavy rain so flooding or earthslips were a common feature also affecting lines at the time.
The big difference then was all staff and rolling stock belonged to one company... BR. So any available locos or stock were used to help with clearance. Staff from all departments helped each other as we were one big team and the cost was met by BR.
I have a feeling that if it happened today that before work starts a discussion would begin to work out who owns the stock, which company is going to pay and which staff works for which company.

 

[DaveHarries]

The storms that crossed the UK are now in continental Europe. Part of the Danish rail network is paralysed by fallen overhead cables: DR (Danmarks Radio) reporting earlier that the number of stuck trains meant that up to 5,000 people might end up spending the night on the train as the network is closed south of Arhus: downed power cables mean the trains can't move in the closed zone.

Pictures on this link with some damage caused to rail lines and stations: apologies if mods don't want this link included.
http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Billedserier/2013/10/28181011.htm

and also quite a few photos from England as well:

http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Billedserier/2013/10/27164842.htm

Some damage also caused in Holland, France and Germany but to what extent I don't know.

Dave

(PS: I don't speak Danish but my web browser automatically translated the text into English)

 

[Peter Sarf]

I remember BR put up a poster just after that storm at many stations to illisrustrate their workload showing quite possibly that line totally covered by fallen trees for a fair length of it

If its the picture I am thinking of I was told it was Sole Street Bank. The stretch between Rochester and Sole street stations. I used to commute from Sole Street and it was er buried. It was an aerial shot and looked like a model railway layout with matchsticks strewn over the tracks so that you could hardly see the rails !.

I recall travelling to Beckenham Junction was best achieved by travelling from Gravesend via Lewisham to Clock House.

I also had to use the North Kent lines for about a week when we had that serious snow within twelve months. A pair of 33s plus snow ploughs had got stranded West of Sole Street roughly at Longfield. For me the disruption of that snow we had was worse. I was snowed in for one week. I then made it to the local pub with a neighbour. The following day I drove to a supermarket down in Strood. I made it down the hill with the underside of the car sliding on the packed snow realising I would have to find an alternative route back or walk. The supermarket had very little on the shelves. Then the next week I made it to Gravesend (or Strood ?) I resorted to travel from there in an EPB dragged by a class 56. Well er I started in the EPB but made it into the 56 cab so stayed on to London and then back to Lewisham.

So sorry I digress but the disruption in the great WIND storm of 1987 was worse than this time but the death toll would also have been a LOT worse if it had struck at 06:00 (am) rather than 03:00 (am). This time it was down to much better weather prediction and timing. If 1987 had happened during the day we would have had trainloads of passengers stranded for days in a lot of locations. I very much agree with the railways this time for not running trains until they knew what the disruption was. It was bad enough this time though 1987 was obviously worse - we were very lucky it happened overnight then.

I wonder if this storm will soon be accompanied by a heavy dose of snow in a few months time.

 

[Darren R]

Someone asked this earlier but I'll ask it again, does anyone know what happened to the trains in 1987 when there was no warning? Did they hit trees?

Yes, in a word! I was on what must have been one of the last trains from the Kent coast back up to London that day before the Southern Region stopped running. A tree fell onto the train as we were approaching Faversham - thankfully (as it fell on the next compartment to me) the train was running very slowly and the damage didn't prevent the train from making it into the station a couple of hundred yards away.

The prize for silliest question asked of Network Rail by a news programme goes to the normally reliable Channel 4 News, who wanted to know why bus replacements hadn't been organised if it was known yesterday that no trains would be running this morning. :roll:

 

[mrredrunner100]

i know i have jumped into this thread but i have to say that despite all the problems most TOC's i follow on twitter i think did really well keeping the public up to date with what was happening and weather there will be a service or not and giving notice for what was going on.

also i think it was a good call to not run trains before 9 am

 

[bicbasher]

The prize for silliest question asked of Network Rail by a news programme goes to the normally reliable Channel 4 News, who wanted to know why bus replacements hadn't been organised if it was known yesterday that no trains would be running this morning. :roll:

Second has to be the BBC London News 'travel' presenter at lunchtime who claimed that East Midlands Trains call at Kings Cross! Close....

 

[YorkshireBear]

Second has to be the BBC London News 'travel' presenter at lunchtime who claimed that East Midlands Trains call at Kings Cross! Close....

That is relatively minor. It is when they ask why trains can't run through trees that i despair.

 

[South Western]

I won't be surprised if Southeastern manage to provide a near normal service on Monday in comparison to the one just gone due to over-running Network Rail work between London Bridge and New Cross.

Southeastern didn't provide a normal service, did they? Trees fell and blocked lines throughout the region. Why?

In days of steam locos, sparks from these engines used to burn the edges of the formation. Saplings were destroyed before they became big trees and so there were NO LEAVES deposited on the track to cause loss of traction.

Now we have lost that facility. To solve this problem, we MUST be ruthless. All trees within 10 metres of the edge of the formation must be felled immediately. All undergrowth must be removed.

Yes! It is a hard and expensive lesson.

Consider what has just taken place. Before morning services could start on Monday 28th October, trains were dispatched strategically to check for fallen trees. At least one of these trains collided with a fallen tree and was derailed.

So now you have:-

Not only a fallen tree to remove but also a derailed train to re-rail.

Damage to the derailed train to repair.

AND damaged track to repair.

Pardon me, folks, but this cannot be the right way to run a railway, can it?

It would have been CHEAPER to hire a dozen helicopters, overfly at low level along all lines, noting the position of fallen trees and then remove them as quickly as possible.

BUT THIS IS ONLY TREATING THE SYMPTOM!!!

I say again, cut down and BURN!

Yes the Preservationists for Rural England will scream but how ironic it would be if a group of these people while travelling to London, couldn't make it to the House of Commons to lobby an MP in their drive for preservation, because a tree had fallen across the line!!!

If, as was normal on the nineteen fifties railway, you still had a ganger to every mile of track, armed with a mobile phone. you would not even have needed the helicopters!

Yes, I am controversial. But I maintain my logic is impregnable. We need to get back to basics here. Why? Because of global warming, weather conditions are only going to get worse.

Let us prepare NOW and minimise expensive damage to our railways and the trains that run along them.

Cut down and burn!

 

[bb21]

Fantastic idea on paper. Impossible to action.

Case closed.

 

[jon0844]

Surely we need more trees to reduce CO2?

I'd agree that trees might need to be checked and SOME cut down, but anything else is way too drastic surely?

 

[infobleep]

(Having to type this again as iPad crashed, sorry if it appears, slightly differently, twice)

In '87 the storm came around 0300 on a Thursday morning, with little warning of strength. Almost all the Southern Region network was badly affected, as was the Anglia area. The national grid went down in the south for a few hours, so nothing electric could move.

Thanks for post. Most interesting and fascinating. I have an interest in how things were once done compared to how they are today.


Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk

 

[Crossover]

I'd like to think the current trend of posting pics when the job comes crashing down round our ears goes some way to appease the Great British public as to why they are currently unable to get to where they want to be. Of course, there are the inane 'you can just drive through that's contents, but then, some will never be satisfied

 

[al78]

Southeastern didn't provide a normal service, did they? Trees fell and blocked lines throughout the region. Why?

In days of steam locos, sparks from these engines used to burn the edges of the formation. Saplings were destroyed before they became big trees and so there were NO LEAVES deposited on the track to cause loss of traction.

Now we have lost that facility. To solve this problem, we MUST be ruthless. All trees within 10 metres of the edge of the formation must be felled immediately. All undergrowth must be removed.

Yes! It is a hard and expensive lesson.

Consider what has just taken place. Before morning services could start on Monday 28th October, trains were dispatched strategically to check for fallen trees. At least one of these trains collided with a fallen tree and was derailed.

So now you have:-

Not only a fallen tree to remove but also a derailed train to re-rail.

Damage to the derailed train to repair.

AND damaged track to repair.

Pardon me, folks, but this cannot be the right way to run a railway, can it?

It would have been CHEAPER to hire a dozen helicopters, overfly at low level along all lines, noting the position of fallen trees and then remove them as quickly as possible.

BUT THIS IS ONLY TREATING THE SYMPTOM!!!

I say again, cut down and BURN!

Yes the Preservationists for Rural England will scream but how ironic it would be if a group of these people while travelling to London, couldn't make it to the House of Commons to lobby an MP in their drive for preservation, because a tree had fallen across the line!!!

If, as was normal on the nineteen fifties railway, you still had a ganger to every mile of track, armed with a mobile phone. you would not even have needed the helicopters!

Yes, I am controversial. But I maintain my logic is impregnable. We need to get back to basics here. Why? Because of global warming, weather conditions are only going to get worse.

Let us prepare NOW and minimise expensive damage to our railways and the trains that run along them.

Cut down and burn!

How does that work if the trees in question are on private property?

 

[bicbasher]

Southeastern didn't provide a normal service, did they? Trees fell and blocked lines throughout the region. Why?

I said Southeastern would provide a near normal service in comparison to last Monday's problems outside New Cross. While today has been the cause of mother nature, Network Rail and Southeastern soon recovered enough by the evening peak. The same couldn't be said for last week.

 

[infobleep]

I wonder if this storm will soon be accompanied by a heavy dose of snow in a few months time.

I hope so.

Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . hire a dozen helicopters, overfly at low level along all lines, noting the position of fallen trees and then remove them as quickly as possible.

. . . .

I say again, cut down and BURN!

. . . . I maintain my logic is impregnable. We need to get back to basics here. . . .

Good work, South Western!
We need robust logic. We can't go far wrong with good, basic, logic.

We also need robust costings of the work and of the benefits, which I know you'll also have undertaken. Good, basic, numbers.

What were those figures?
Thanks.

You reckon on a dozen helicopters to cover the 10,000 miles of the network?
In good weather, it might be optomistically possible in a 3-shift day, though I'd wonder why you'd want to hire a dozen helicopters to patrol the network in good weather? And why would want to take a whole day (in daylight and darkness) to complete it? Surely you're scheme would require a quicker survey than that, and in high wind, when air surveys would be highly restricted?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Cut down and burn!

Simple fact is there is not enough work for a gang so it is a waste of money. We don't need gangs packing joints, putting keys back in anymore. We can't just pay people to sit around on the off chance that it is windy!

 

[Darren R]

Well, of course we mustn't forget that it's not just the railways that have problems with falling trees in stormy weather. Roads, houses, power/telephone wires, in fact anywhere where there are likely to be people. There is certainly an argument to be had that if we chopped all the trees down across the UK then the problem would definitely be solved at a stroke. Future generations would thanks us for our foresight.

 

[tsr]

It would have been CHEAPER to hire a dozen helicopters, overfly at low level along all lines, noting the position of fallen trees and then remove them as quickly as possible.

They already have at least two they can use, plus the BTP can request more for other sorts of railway emergencies... and they were flying Saturday (well, at least one of them was), gathering as much data as possible.

They wouldn't do that if it wasn't worthwhile. One of the lines I saw them survey (part of the North Downs Line) was then blocked by some errant vegetation at around 0600 yesterday (Monday 28/10). The survey probably helped predict those circumstances, which resulted in the "empty" train being sent to survey the line. As far as I know, nobody was injured, because the train did not encounter the obstruction in a particularly dangerous way, and the line was cleared relatively quickly in an area with difficult access and steep embankments.

 

[SF-02]

I said Southeastern would provide a near normal service in comparison to last Monday's problems outside New Cross. While today has been the cause of mother nature, Network Rail and Southeastern soon recovered enough by the evening peak. The same couldn't be said for last week.

Southeastern havn't recovered even with running 2 trains an hour on metro lines. Not entirely there fault though with such tough conditions.

Even now at almost 1am some last trains from London are listed as 'delayed'. The 00:26 to Gillingham included. What happens if that is now cancelled? SE have to provide taxis don't they? The thing is, in previous instances like this you can never find the staff at this time. Is there a number to ring or somewhere to go in London Bridge or Charing Cross? And what about if stuck at unstaffed stations like Maze Hill? Passenger info machine/telephone the way to go I presume?

EDIT: That train has now disappeared presumably cancelled.

 

[bezzer]

Services from London Liverpool to Stanstead Airport still suspended due to overhead wire damage. No replacement buses will be provided.

HOWEVER, National Express and Terravision operate services to London by coach

BUT WAIT FOR IT

Greater Anglia tickets are not valid!! Helpful advice.

 

[NLC1072]

Services from London Liverpool to Stanstead Airport still suspended due to overhead wire damage. No replacement buses will be provided.

HOWEVER, National Express and Terravision operate services to London by coach

BUT WAIT FOR IT

Greater Anglia tickets are not valid!! Helpful advice.

It's ok, next time we'll not tell you and hope you figure it out for yourself?

 

[dk1]

Looks like i won't make it through to London this morning as yesterday's destruction is still being repaired along the GEML.