What is wrong with Northern Rail?

[455driver]

As for magically expecting the guards to do it. Well, if you start from the assumption that all they do is "sit in the back cab and read the paper" then you're doomed to failure. Do you think the driver does the same in the front cab?

Well I certainly dont move out of the cab when the train is moving, thats for sure!

 

[Anvil1984]

The MAJORITY of us do the mandatory Transec announcements, some don't they will get into bother! myself, 156 and many more won't. We do our best to keep high levels of customer service but more importantly do our best to keep passengers SAFE which is our 1st priority.

Safety (passengers, your own and the line)
Keep the train on time where possible
Customer service (announcements, helping with connections etc)
Revenue

Then you get complaints about excessive announcements

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Safety (passengers, your own and the line)
Keep the train on time where possible
Customer service (announcements, helping with connections etc)
Revenue

Then you get complaints about excessive announcements

Pretty much spot on Anvil m8

 

[455driver]

Pretty much spot on Anvil m8

What do you mean "spot on"! Where is my bloomin cuppa?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What do you mean "spot on"! Where is my bloomin cuppa?

You need to cut down on Caffeine, you are letting people wind you up lol

 

[455driver]

You need to cut down on Caffeine, you are letting people wind you up lol

I gave up caffeine years ago, I stick to alcohol now (much healthier)

 

[thenorthern]

Weren't all the big express services taken away in 2004 when First Transpennie Express was launched leaving the then First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern with the slower services many of which are rural branch lines.

 

[Anvil1984]

Weren't all the big express services taken away in 2004 when First Transpennie Express was launched leaving the then First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern with the slower services many of which are rural branch lines.

Depends what you mean by the big express trains, if you mean the relative money earners then yes but Northern still have some expresses Leeds - Nottingham, York - Blackpool amongst others

 

[WatcherZero]

What is this nonsense?

Northern used to have a problem with dirty trains, but they seem to have already stepped up their efforts in this regard. I've been of a couple of their 142s and 150s in the last few months and they've all been refreshed inside and are clean and tidy.

Wait until the weather goes sub zero and they wheel out their annual excuse of their trains are muddy because they are unable to use the train washes because the waters frozen and that they will fix it next year, Northern seemingly unable to preheat the water to prevent freezing like others do.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As a driver I wouldn't expect you to clean a train, check tickets or do anything but drive, safely.

But bus/coach drivers do that, sometimes.
It's called flexible working.
And the ultimate employers are often the same as the trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bleedin' hell, never knew that!
Why are companies so keen to bid for franchises then? :?

We are back to confusing subsidy and profit.
Northern get a huge subsidy to run the contracted services.
But they also make a profit (because their revenue is above the franchise target set at the beginning).
They are doing so well they are sharing the extra revenue with the DfT.

 

[anti-pacer]

As I stated in my earlier post, the trains I get to/from work are very clean, and yes I know the reason they end up dirty is down to SOME thoughtless passengers.

I'm sure most of us will agree that we are a filthy nation, and many people have the "someone else will do it" attitude, hence the mess left on trains.

I'm also sure that most of us are not the sort to litter anywhere, let alone trains. So this seems a "catch 22". Northern are making big profits according to a previous poster, so much so that they're being shared with the DfT, so I see little reason why some of it can't go into extra cleaning.

About a month ago, I saw lots of on-board cleaners, and it was reported by some forum members that this was because of the National Passenger Survey, and that it would be "back to normal". Well, whilst I do see the odd cleaner on trains now, it's nowhere near as prevalent as it was.

Someone also mentioned that as Northern serve some "dumps", people are possibly more likely to litter/misbehave. Well, travel on any EC service into Leeds and see the mess that is left by business people. The saving grace for EC though is their trains get cleaned at each end. I've even seen a middle-aged business woman leave her Costa cup on the seat at Wakefield Westgate, after very neatly folding her banana skin and placing it inside said empty cup. The mind boggles!

Maybe one answer is more posters on trains (Northern do have some) and announcements to the tune of "Please could passengers place litter in the bins provided".

Like starmill, I will move litter from tables on trains, and I have been known to pick up litter in a 158 carriage, much to the bemusement of other passengers.

 

[AndyLandy]

I've even seen a middle-aged business woman leave her Costa cup on the seat at Wakefield Westgate, after very neatly folding her banana skin and placing it inside said empty cup. The mind boggles!

There's something of a rationale for that. It's tidying your litter all into one place, under the assumption that it'll get tidied away later. I think it's a genuine misconception amongst some people that there aren't bins on the train, so you can leave your litter tidy and someone will come along and clear it away.

I know it's genuine, because I used to believe it. I'd always stuff all my rubbish into the coffee cup, or one of those buffet paper bags and leave it neatly on the side to be cleared up. I genuinely didn't think this was wrong. Nowadays I bin my own rubbish, taking it with me off the train if necesary. But the misconception is still prevalent.

 

[anti-pacer]

There's something of a rationale for that. It's tidying your litter all into one place, under the assumption that it'll get tidied away later. I think it's a genuine misconception amongst some people that there aren't bins on the train, so you can leave your litter tidy and someone will come along and clear it away.

I know it's genuine, because I used to believe it. I'd always stuff all my rubbish into the coffee cup, or one of those buffet paper bags and leave it neatly on the side to be cleared up. I genuinely didn't think this was wrong. Nowadays I bin my own rubbish, taking it with me off the train if necesary. But the misconception is still prevalent.

I'd agree with that.

 

[northwichcat]

Depends what you mean by the big express trains, if you mean the relative money earners then yes but Northern still have some expresses Leeds - Nottingham, York - Blackpool amongst others

There were also services which were semi-fasts which Northern added stops to, so they became more like stopping services.

Some of the routes Northern retained are longer than some of the routes that went to TPE. For instance, before Buxton to Blackpool was split that was longer than Manchester Airport to Blackpool.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lets not forget many Northern Lines are not profitable, I think they get more money from the government than any other operator so its not worth poring money into services that are lightly used.

This is an argument I don't like. Because some lines in the Northern area have low usage and don't make much money people argue that a service which gets a loading of 200+ outside a PTE area can get a dirty tatty 2 car Pacer (with 100-120 seats) because Northern can't afford something like new 3 car 172s.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

From a rail users group point of view we find Northern Rail are very pro-active, they have gone out of their way to help our little group, its not their fault that there is not enough stock to cope with demand.

We find the worst people we have to deal with are TPE, it took 3 months to get them to put up a Northern Rail timetable at Cleethorpes station.

 

[Greybeard33]

As a passenger I use four of Northern's South Manchester services most weekdays - Mid-Cheshire, Crewe and Stoke lines. Units are 142s, 150s, 156s & 323s. The services are mostly reliable and punctual, except for pathing delays due to priority being given to delayed sevices of other TOCs. The trains are usually reasonably clean and tidy, except for rubbish left by recently-disembarked passengers. The staff are courteous, friendly, helpful and hard-working. The 142s and 150s are showing their age, but seem to be maintained to a reasonable standard mechanically. The 323s are very pleasant to ride on, and the 156s not bad considering their age.

It is a big contrast to the unreliable Metrolink light rail network, despite all the investment that has received.

 

[northwichcat]

From a rail users group point of view we find Northern Rail are very pro-active, they have gone out of their way to help our little froup, its not their fault that there is not enough stock to cope with demand.

Northern do indeed listen to RUGs. However, they seem to rely on RUGs to inform them about special events which might result in very high demand and to provide passenger counts on busy trains* when really that's the kind of thing their own operations team should be doing.

* Northern's and Network Rail's own passenger counters tend to count a section which they think will be busiest and to not count the section which is actually busiest. For example, in the case of the Mid-Cheshire line passenger counts are done between Stockport and Manchester when the busiest section is usually between Knutsford and Altrincham.

 

[Bellbell]

As a guard we are expressly told not to pick up any litter down the sides of seats or anything which looks remotely dodgy, including not grabbing things when we can't clearly see what they are or what's in them.

Cleaning is not in our job description and as far as I know the majority of our guards don't do any. Occasionally I will clean a late night train into MAN, but only very basic cleaning and only if I've managed to get hold of gloves and rubbish bags earlier in the day. We have cleaners for all but the late night trains and also have fairly long turnarounds outside peak (about 20 minutes). Our trains have auto announcements asking people to dispose of rubbish but the majority of passengers apparently think the message is meant for everyone other than them.

We never have breaks at MAN and I don't smoke/go and buy coffee so will often leave the train doors open despite the long turnaround, because I'm staying with the train. If another service is coming in on top of us though I will shut the doors until it's departed; it's too much of a headache repeating 'Sheffield service is the one in front' while on the platform and having to make constant announcements for those who just jump on the first train they see, as well as dealing with the inevitable when someone jumps on, sticks their headphones in and then has a paddy a few stops later when it's clear this is not the Sheffield service. If the driver and I were to leave the train for any reason we would be absolutely required to lock it up; surely that needs no explanation?

 

[175001]

The MAJORITY of us do the mandatory Transec announcements, some don't they will get into bother! myself, 156 and many more won't. We do our best to keep high levels of customer service but more importantly do our best to keep passengers SAFE which is our 1st priority.

Hear Hear

 

[northwichcat]

As a guard we are expressly told not to pick up any litter down the sides of seats or anything which looks remotely dodgy, including not grabbing things when we can't clearly see what they are or what's in them.

I remember hearing a story of when a coach driver went to pick up litter he caught his arm on a crunched up drinks can and got a wound which required hospital treatment.

Our trains have auto announcements asking people to dispose of rubbish but the majority of passengers apparently think the message is meant for everyone other than them.

How such announcements are worded is proven to affect how much people take notice of them. For instance, you could say:

1. " Last week 1400 items of rubbish were found left on our trains based at XXXX"
OR:
2. "Last week an estimated 99.5% of passengers did not leave litter on the train but unfortunately a small proportion did affecting the cleanliness of our trains. "

The first way makes it sound like leaving litter is normative behaviour so leaving a bit more won't make much difference. The second makes it sound like it's a small minority of people who spoil it for the rest and make that small minority feel more responsible.

 

[terryc]

One solution could be simply be to provide more litter bins on trains??
I never leave litter, but quite often find myself carring it off a train to deposit in a platform bin due to mainly not seeing / passing a bin from my seat or on walking to my exit.
OK I appreciate that this wouldn't help the situation with the hard-core litter bugs, but maybe those more responsible types who could easily see a bin would be tempted to use it?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Wait until the weather goes sub zero and they wheel out their annual excuse of their trains are muddy because they are unable to use the train washes because the waters frozen and that they will fix it next year, Northern seemingly unable to preheat the water to prevent freezing like others do.

Warm water freezes quicker than cold water, you know.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/28/why-does-hot-water-freeze-faster

 

[anti-pacer]

I remember hearing a story of when a coach driver went to pick up litter he caught his arm on a crunched up drinks can and got a wound which required hospital treatment.

National Express were required to clean the coach of litter and mop any spillages prior to departure, and weren't even given appropriate tools to do so.

Not right really.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How such announcements are worded is proven to affect how much people take notice of them. For instance, you could say:

1. " Last week 1400 items of rubbish were found left on our trains based at XXXX"
OR:
2. "Last week an estimated 99.5% of passengers did not leave litter on the train but unfortunately a small proportion did affecting the cleanliness of our trains. "

The first way makes it sound like leaving litter is normative behaviour so leaving a bit more won't make much difference. The second makes it sound like it's a small minority of people who spoil it for the rest and make that small minority feel more responsible.

I like that idea a lot!

 

[neilmc]

From a rail users group point of view we find Northern Rail are very pro-active, they have gone out of their way to help our little group, its not their fault that there is not enough stock to cope with demand.

We find the worst people we have to deal with are TPE, it took 3 months to get them to put up a Northern Rail timetable at Cleethorpes station.

I remember advising a Manchester Airport-bound passenger to use the Saturdays-only Sheffield service from Cleethorpes a couple of years ago. From the reaction of the Cleethorpes station staff you'd have thought I'd been divulging state secrets on Wikileaks!

 

[northwichcat]

I remember advising a Manchester Airport-bound passenger to use the Saturdays-only Sheffield service from Cleethorpes a couple of years ago. From the reaction of the Cleethorpes station staff you'd have thought I'd been divulging state secrets on Wikileaks!

Looking at the current timetable on 2/3 services that would be slower and the time it would be quicker than waiting for the next direct Airport train is only 10 minutes after a direct train (the 18:36) so it's only really a good option for someone who turns up just too late for the 18:26 train but would be really useful to know for that passenger who just misses the 18:26.

 

[Bevan Price]

Northern is my local operator, and whilst it is not perfect, it generally seems to try to do a reasonable job despite (for example):

1. Insufficient / poor quality trains allowed to them by DfT, so that overcrowding is often inevitable. And some people will probably blame Northern when it has been unable to get enough electric trains to use on newly electrified routes.

2. Litter left by the idle section of the British public, too b****y lazy to take it to a waste bin.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The trains are poor quality because of their own mismanagement of the stock.

A 142 will always be a 142, with plenty of bouncy bouncy action, freezing cold draughts and heaters that will burn the hairs on your leg without warming anything else, sure. But look at what (the then) Valley Lines did with their 142s and 143s, compare it to the ex-Merseyrail 142s, and weep.

Similarly, when some of Northern's 156s were transferred to EMT, the latter stuck noticed up apologising for the poor quality of the trains. Essentially Northern Spirit refurbished them in about 1998 and Northern have done nothing with them since.

Given Northern are making profits of more than £20m a year, I don't think we can really argue that they're this poor impoverished operator doing what they can.

 

[northwichcat]

A 142 will always be a 142, with plenty of bouncy bouncy action, freezing cold draughts and heaters that will burn the hairs on your leg without warming anything else, sure. But look at what (the then) Valley Lines did with their 142s and 143s, compare it to the ex-Merseyrail 142s, and weep.

And squealing on bends.

 

[Deerfold]

A 142 will always be a 142, with plenty of bouncy bouncy action.

That sounds more fun than my last trip on one.

 

[NathanPrior]

Make it possible for us Southerners to understand the announcements! I avoid traveling on Northern Rail if possible when I'm up in the region, this isn't possible on Saturday though