What is wrong with Northern Rail?

[thenorthern]

I have used Northern Rail a couple of times, I generally find them great for branch lines or local stopping services between cites.

I think many people forget that when travelling intercity such as Manchester to Sheffield Northern are going to be much slower and less comfortable than the express services that do the same journey because Northern Rail are local railway company and not an intercity operator.

 

[beeza1]

The main gripe I had with NT is that some of the guards seemed reluctant to venture from their cabs to sell tickets, OK I can understand it if the train is busy, but this happened even on very quiet trains, delaying honest PAX at their destination, or giving others a "free ride". I use the word "had" because since the barriers were installed at HUD, and some "new faces" on the trains the "problem" seems to have been sorted.

 

[northwichcat]

The main gripe I had with NT is that some of the guards seemed reluctant to venture from their cabs to sell tickets, OK I can understand it if the train is busy, but this happened even on very quiet trains, delaying honest PAX at their destination, or giving others a "free ride". I use the word "had" because since the barriers were installed at HUD, and some "new faces" on the trains the "problem" seems to have been sorted.

The conductor not checking everyone's ticket is much better, for the fare paying passengers, then the conductors who start a ticket sale when the train is coming to a stop at the next station and results in the train departing that station late.

If the conductor's stretched doing revenue duties then Northern should look at putting 'second conductors' on more services.

As the conductors get commission on the tickets they sell on board I don't understand why they wouldn't want to sell tickets for no reason.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I don't have a problem with the Crewe-Manchester line. It works, trains are clean enough and they run to time.

 

[142094]

As the conductors get commission on the tickets they sell on board I don't understand why they wouldn't want to sell tickets for no reason.

Try a Friday or Saturday night, last train from a major city. You'll get the idea in a few minutes.

In all seriousness, there are some staff members who CBA to do their job properly, and this is not confined to Northern, other TOCs, or just about any other company. The vast majority of staff do what is expected of them, and a lot go the extra mile when needed. However, passengers generally only remember the bad aspects of travel and not when something positive happens.

 

[yorksrob]

You wouldn't have the issue of having to stand around in the freezing cold waiting to get on with proper slam door trains.

Anyway, that's beside the point. With the exception of the 142's, I rather like Northern's collection of rolling stock.

The biggest issues with the Northern seem to be lack of late and early trains and awkward connections. Room for improvement but I don't dislike them.

 

[northwichcat]

Try a Friday or Saturday night, last train from a major city. You'll get the idea in a few minutes.

Ah but they can walk through the train saying something like "Would anyone like to purchase a ticket?" opposed to the usual approach of either show me a valid ticket or buy one.

 

[142094]

Ah but they can walk through the train saying something like "Would anyone like to purchase a ticket?" opposed to the usual approach of either show me a valid ticket or buy one.

It depends on how confident the guard is. 1st rule is always safety, and nothing trumps that. No one is going to complain about losing a few pounds in revenue compared to having a member of staff off sick due to being assaulted, a train stuck in the middle of nowhere and an investigation into the incident. I'm sure there will be a few conductors out there that are as hard as nails and will go out regardless of what 'type' of passenger they have on the train, but conversely there will be those who wouldn't dream of doing any sort of revenue check on a late night train.

Similarly, for DOO there will be exactly the same procedures for a driver in handling the same situation, just with the revenue side of things removed.

 

[beeza1]

The conductor not checking everyone's ticket is much better, for the fare paying passengers, then the conductors who start a ticket sale when the train is coming to a stop at the next station and results in the train departing that station late.

If the conductor's stretched doing revenue duties then Northern should look at putting 'second conductors' on more services.

As the conductors get commission on the tickets they sell on board I don't understand why they wouldn't want to sell tickets for no reason.

My journeys usually start at an unmanned station with no TVM, so I have to buy on board, what always puzzled me was that some guards managed to sell tickets while others didn't even bother.

I totally agree with your other point regarding "second conductors", and am equally baffled when "not selling" tickets costs them commission.

 

[142094]

Northern do have RPIs who go on some routes. However, extra staff = extra costs, so in effect you might be paying out more wages but only getting a small amount of additional revenue in return. Of course this is all very basic, and I'm sure some accountant has done the figures and found some sort of middle ground where it is affordable.

 

[harry42]

I never claimed to not like the company. I have a few issues with them, but some people I just thought had a lot and I just wanted to know what they were.

 

[anti-pacer]

As a PASSENGER who uses Northern Rail to/from work every day, the trains I use for my journey to/from Leeds are fine.

I use the 0728 Wakefield Kirkgate-Leeds (ex Sheffield) and 1720 Leeds-Wakefield Westgate (Doncaster stopper).

Both trains are very clean, and ticket checks are carried out.

HOWEVER, some Northern services are dirty and despite the sporadic on-board cleaning by ISS staff, they remain so, generally.

I went for a job at Arriva Trains Merseyside in 2003 as a station assistant and part of my duties would have been litter picking. They even told me I'd be trained in needle disposal! I didn't take it in the end as a better paid job came along. This job wasn't anywhere near what train guards are on, and I wouldn't expect it to be, but should train guards be required to pick up litter? I don't see why not! I've even seen Northern staff do it, so it's clearly far from unreasonable. I guess it depends who "house proud" you are of the train you're working. My opinion, as a PASSENGER.

That said, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a bye-law of the railways that you don't leave litter? If so, what's stopping you from telling your passengers to use a bin/take their crap with them?

Trains in this country are often filthy as a result of selfish scrotes, and I don't think that us clean, respectful passengers should have to travel surrounded by other peoples mess. Neither do I think as employees of the railway that you should have to either.

Tricky one I guess!

 

[142094]

Hygiene is a good enough reason for me - I certainly wouldn't want to be given a ticket or a handful of change from someone who has just been picking up crap. Removing newspapers from seats I'd be fine with, but that's just about it.

 

[anti-pacer]

Hygiene is a good enough reason for me - I certainly wouldn't want to be given a ticket or a handful of change from someone who has just been picking up crap. Removing newspapers from seats I'd be fine with, but that's just about it.

And there's me thinking Northern's trains boasted toilet cubicles complete with wash basins and running water! :?

 

[Anvil1984]

Whats to stop us telling people off for littering the train? Usually because theyve got off the train

Except for the odd newspaper then litter should be left for cleaners especially as they have protective equipment to do so. Gloves, litter pickers in case of needles, broken glass

 

[anti-pacer]

Whats to stop us telling people off for littering the train? Usually because theyve got off the train

Except for the odd newspaper then litter should be left for cleaners especially as they have protective equipment to do so. Gloves, litter pickers in case of needles, broken glass

It's litter not sewage! :roll:

 

[tbtc]

As the conductors get commission on the tickets they sell on board I don't understand why they wouldn't want to sell tickets for no reason.

If you are getting 10% (?) commission on an Intercity TOC then you could make twenty quid for selling an extra ticket.

If you are getting 10% (?) commission on a TOC with lots of cheap PTE fares then you could make twenty pence for selling an extra ticket. Worth the hassle of getting into an argument with someone?

Factor in that Northern Guards need to operate the doors, which generally means going to the back door at each station, and the frequent stops and there's not a lot of scope/incentive to worry about revenue.

I'd personally say some PTE lines like Marple to Manchester get an unrealistic level of off-peak service considering usage, while some lines where passengers pay higher fares have higher patronage and a lower level of frequency.

Absolutely, but the terms of the franchise require them to focus on these PTE services, its going to be the same when the franchise is re-let

 

[Anvil1984]

It's litter not sewage! :roll:

Rubbish. You never know what your picking up. Im not picking up half empty cans and bottles because then passengers will love to have a go at us for not looking smart and grubny and reporting us for smelling kike a brewery should yhe faintest drop of alcohol touch my clothing

 

[Crossover]

Two words..."Blackpool" and "North"

#1: Clean the train during turn-around instead of sitting on your bum next to it chatting to your colleges!

The guard on the Leeds - Goole via Knottingley service went one better the other day and was walking through clearing it up between stops after Knottingley! Friendly guy, too

 

[6Gman]

I'd quite like barrier staff to be railway staff.

 

[anti-pacer]

Rubbish. You never know what your picking up. Im not picking up half empty cans and bottles because then passengers will love to have a go at us for not looking smart and grubny and reporting us for smelling kike a brewery should yhe faintest drop of alcohol touch my clothing

Clutching at straws springs to mind!

 

[Starmill]

Indeed, lovely chap, I felt so guilty when he said "This line doesn't get very many trains..."

 

[northernchris]

I use Northern just about every day and rarely have a problem with them. The trains are usually clean, punctual and have friendly conductors. However, there does seem to be a difference between the former FNW and ATN sides, and from my experience the ex Arriva area is in a better state

 

[anti-pacer]

Two words..."Blackpool" and "North"



The guard on the Leeds - Goole via Knottingley service went one better the other day and was walking through clearing it up between stops after Knottingley! Friendly guy, too

Living proof that SOME Northern staff do it. Funny how some will and some won't! :?

 

[Anvil1984]

Clutching at straws springs to mind!

No its called experience and doing the job

 

[Silv1983]

Why can't the doors be left open then? And it is usually when the driver is in the cab thrashing the unit up.

Trains are left secure because there are frequent shunts, couple-ups / uncouples, unit swaps and changes prior to a journey which can't occur until train crew have arrived. Sometimes services are cancelled if crew are unavailable and platform alterations occur last minute depending on whats about and how the signaller is juggling traffic. If trains were left open - people would have to repeatedly be asked to leave the train (assuming they boarded the correct one to start) during the aforementioned scenarios - and this would cause conflict and delay.

 

[Anvil1984]

Living proof that SOME Northern staff do it. Funny how some will and some won't! :?

Thank you for the not so sly dig. I bet the knottingley to goole section was not on a Saturday afteroon with 10+ half full cans of alcohol, smashed up pasties, spilt cans of cole.

 

[anti-pacer]

Thank you for the not so sly dig. I bet the knottingley to goole section was not on a Saturday afteroon with 10+ half full cans of alcohol, smashed up pasties, spilt cans of cole.

Actually, it wasn't a dig but apologies if you thought so.

Some Northern staff (again, not suggesting you as I don't know you) can't even be bothered to check and sell tickets, choosing instead to stay in their cabs.

That means they operate doors, maybe do some announcements (although the general Northern announcements are minimal) and maybe they do a bit more.

Not all of your passengers leave litter behind. Not all of your passengers want to travel on dirty trains. Even your bosses know it's a problem! Why is it so much of a problem on Northern's trains? Less salubrious passengers, a company that cares little for its passengers? I've met the managers at Leeds station who told me they know it's a problem and even took my email address and promised to respond. Have they? Have they hell!

The sooner the Northern franchise is put in the hands of a competent TOC, the sooner that travelling on ALL its services will be a more positive experience.

Oh and before I get shot down in flames from defensive employees, you may wish to ponder on the fact that without passengers you'd all be working elsewhere!

 

[455driver]

As a PASSENGER who uses Northern Rail to/from work every day, the trains I use for my journey to/from Leeds are fine.

I use the 0728 Wakefield Kirkgate-Leeds (ex Sheffield) and 1720 Leeds-Wakefield Westgate (Doncaster stopper).

Both trains are very clean, and ticket checks are carried out.

HOWEVER, some Northern services are dirty and despite the sporadic on-board cleaning by ISS staff, they remain so, generally.

I went for a job at Arriva Trains Merseyside in 2003 as a station assistant and part of my duties would have been litter picking. They even told me I'd be trained in needle disposal! I didn't take it in the end as a better paid job came along. This job wasn't anywhere near what train guards are on, and I wouldn't expect it to be, but should train guards be required to pick up litter? I don't see why not! I've even seen Northern staff do it, so it's clearly far from unreasonable. I guess it depends who "house proud" you are of the train you're working. My opinion, as a PASSENGER.

That said, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a bye-law of the railways that you don't leave litter? If so, what's stopping you from telling your passengers to use a bin/take their crap with them?

Trains in this country are often filthy as a result of selfish scrotes, and I don't think that us clean, respectful passengers should have to travel surrounded by other peoples mess. Neither do I think as employees of the railway that you should have to either.

Tricky one I guess!

Ah volunteering people to do extra duties again, you would make a grwat boss! :roll:

So you are saying that because the guards are on more money than you they should pick up litter, using your (usual simplistic ideology) I wonder how much cleaning up the managing directors do? :roll:

If some passengers are too thick to use the bins and the company wont employ enough cleaners (if the train has enough turn around time to be cleaned that is) why should the guard clean it?
It isnt in the job discription is it?

I have just had a groundhog day moment, round and round we go!:roll:

 

[Starmill]

This shouldn't be getting so personal guys. Employees of all firms including Northern Rail should be assumed to be carrying out their duties professionally in line with direction from management. It's not really for customers to say that it is the job of a particular member of staff to carry out specific duties.