What is wrong with Northern Rail?

[LNW-GW Joint]

The sooner the Northern franchise is put in the hands of a competent TOC, the sooner that travelling on ALL its services will be a more positive experience.

They are a competent TOC. They are one of the relatively few which is not in revenue support.
In DfT's books that makes them a star. ATW is another.
Having been dealt poor hands by the franchise system, they are both doing better than expected (for themselves and the taxpayer).

 

[anti-pacer]

Only because Northern pay them too.

The Northern franchise is a money pit and is struggling (ALL staff, management or crew, are doing their best but its a well known fact) and yet anti Northern is advocating more costs which will actually make £0 precisely for the company, the accountants wont be happy!

Two words 455... PUBLIC and SERVICE!

The vast majority of passengers couldn't give a toss about that! They want decent, clean trains, frequently, and on time!
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Minimising concerns again i see!

Not many drug users in your areas then? You might want some special training in the handling, storage and disposal of contaminated sharps. Or do your gloves offer protection against HIV or Hepituts?

How do you propose to pick up, store and dispose of that a pile of "effluent" that may or may not be contaminated? How shall you remove that vomit from the seat?

If you go out on track and you come across all manner of discarded drug paraphernalia, used prophylactics and other unpleasant stuff - i aint touching them. Not now, not ever. I am also not going rooting through rubbish with a view to cleaning it up just in case there is something nasty inside it.

As for your final paragraph i have no idea what you mean. It is the same on trains and buses in London and the south. The companies need to employ more cleaning staff, have them travel on trains in service and try to ensure passengers use the bin.

I would draw the line at you having to remove needles, despite it being part of the requirements of the job I was offered at Arriva Trains Merseyside 10 years ago.

I would however expect passengers to be protected from such issues whilst in your care, on board a train.

 

[thenorthern]

Lets not forget many Northern Lines are not profitable, I think they get more money from the government than any other operator so its not worth poring money into services that are lightly used.

 

[Anvil1984]

Minimising concerns again i see!



As for your final paragraph i have no idea what you mean. It is the same on trains and buses in London and the south. The companies need to employ more cleaning staff, have them travel on trains in service and try to ensure passengers use the bin.

Which in fairness Northern have gotten better at but just at certain times (evenings / weekends) they let themselves down

 

[455driver]

Two words 455... PUBLIC and SERVICE!

Wots that then?

The main part of the railways havent been a PUBLIC SERVICE since they were privatised back in the 90s.

 

[anti-pacer]

Lets not forget many Northern Lines are not profitable, I think they get more money from the government than any other operator so its not worth poring money into services that are lightly used.

Do you not think by making underused services more attractive may attract more passengers?

I'll use the restaurant analogy again. If you went to one that was dirty, you wouldn't go again.

 

[DarloRich]

I would draw the line at you having to remove needles, despite it being part of the requirements of the job I was offered at Arriva Trains Merseyside 10 years ago.

I would however expect passengers to be protected from such issues whilst in your care, on board a train.

I dont work on a train, as you would know if you read the post, I am just giving you an understanding of why people are less than keen to pick up litter.

And if you are expected to remove needles you receive the correct training and protective equipment.

 

[Anvil1984]

Two words 455... PUBLIC and SERVICE!

The vast majority of passengers couldn't give a toss about that! They want decent, clean trains, frequently, and on time!
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I would draw the line at you having to remove needles, despite it being part of the requirements of the job I was offered at Arriva Trains Merseyside 10 years ago.

I would however expect passengers to be protected from such issues whilst in your care, on board a train.

But needles often can't be spotted until its too late, hidden down seat backs, that's why you need the pickers then procedure. And no offence to Station Assistants / Cleaners if they get contaminated the train still runs, if the on board staff do the service gets cancelled

 

[anti-pacer]

Wots that then?

The main part of the railways havent been a PUBLIC SERVICE since they were privatised back in the 90s.

455, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about your paying passengers.

I can't be bothered with your arrogant attitude on the subject!

 

[Anvil1984]

Do you not think by making underused services more attractive may attract more passengers?

I'll use the restaurant analogy again. If you went to one that was dirty, you wouldn't go again.

But yet again many restaurants (even Pizza Hut) have separate staff to serve and to clean and set

 

[anti-pacer]

I dont work on a train, as you would know if you read the post, I am just giving you an understanding of why people are less than keen to pick up litter.

And if you are expected to remove needles you receive the correct training and protective equipment.

Agreed on that.

 

[156441]

Can I give you an example of a PM Piccadilly job and you can tell me where you'd like me to do these 'litter picks' and additional voluntary duties.

Book on 1500 ish.
18 minutes booking on time. (This is the time you officially clock on, read notices, collect and set up ticket equipment. Count float, ensure you have correct equipment, get down to train, cab prep and release doors)
Can you see why we struggle to have you early arrivers on the train getting snug?

Trip to New Mills. (All stops) 8 minutes turn round but involves the shunt from down back to up which the conductor has a safety role in signalling the driver so must be in the back cab.

Back to Piccadilly 4-6 mins to change ends set destination, pre departure announcements (mandatory). Leave on time.

Trip to Rose Hill (peak time now train packed)
6 mins to change ends, destinations, announcers etc. also normally running late due to extended dwell times. So let's be realistic and say its a 3 min turnaround.

Back to Picc. 6 Min turnaround you've been working 3 hours.....your next trip is to Sheffield. Local stopper. 1 hour and a half at best. You've got all the usual stuff to do. I usually have a bottle of water so will have a quick drink.

Arrive Sheffield 35 mins break (30 by law, 5 mins to shut and clear the unit and walk to Mess room. )

All stops back to Picc. 40 mins stand down time before taking on of the last all stops service to New Mills. Usually knackered by this point as you've been working at least 7 hours. Quick brew with your mates or clear up peoples ****? Got to be a brew I'm afraid I'd call you a liar if you said you'd do some Voluntary work such as littler picking after working right through the evening peak with a 30 minute break away from your own base.

I do hope that gives you a insight into what Northern Conductor does in a shift and goes to show it's not all lazyness. We work bloody hard and I find these staff bashing threads about any TOC a little frustrating.

On a side note doors are also locked at terminal stations due to TRANSEC regulations and TOCs can be fined for leaving unmanned trains unlocked due to the obvious security risk.

As stated above operational reasons are the other problem especially where there may be 2 or even 3 trains on one platform for several destinations.

 

[anti-pacer]

But yet again many restaurants (even Pizza Hut) have separate staff to serve and to clean and set

Which you should have more of too, seeing as though you are providing a service.

 

[Darren R]

This could be interesting…

**brings popcorn out**

Don't get too comfy - something tells me this thread may not be playing for long!

 

[anti-pacer]

Can I give you an example of a PM Piccadilly job and you can tell me where you'd like me to do these 'litter picks' and additional voluntary duties.

Book on 1500 ish.
18 minutes booking on time. (This is the time you officially clock on, read notices, collect and set up ticket equipment. Count float, ensure you have correct equipment, get down to train, cab prep and release doors)
Can you see why we struggle to have you early arrivers on the train getting snug?

Trip to New Mills. (All stops) 8 minutes turn round but involves the shunt from down back to up which the conductor has a safety role in signalling the driver so must be in the back cab.

Back to Piccadilly 4-6 mins to change ends set destination, pre departure announcements (mandatory). Leave on time.

Trip to Rose Hill (peak time now train packed)
6 mins to change ends, destinations, announcers etc. also normally running late due to extended dwell times. So let's be realistic and say its a 3 min turnaround.

Back to Picc. 6 Min turnaround you've been working 3 hours.....your next trip is to Sheffield. Local stopper. 1 hour and a half at best. You've got all the usual stuff to do. I usually have a bottle of water so will have a quick drink.

Arrive Sheffield 35 mins break (30 by law, 5 mins to shut and clear the unit and walk to Mess room. )

All stops back to Picc. 40 mins stand down time before taking on of the last all stops service to New Mills. Usually knackered by this point as you've been working at least 7 hours. Quick brew with your mates or clear up peoples ****? Got to be a brew I'm afraid I'd call you a liar if you said you'd do some Voluntary work such as littler picking after working right through the evening peak with a 30 minute break away from your own base.

I do hope that gives you a insight into what Northern Conductor does in a shift and goes to show it's not all lazyness. We work bloody hard and I find these staff bashing threads about any TOC a little frustrating.

On a side note doors are also locked at terminal stations due to TRANSEC regulations and TOCs can be fined for leaving unmanned trains unlocked due to the obvious security risk.

As stated above operational reasons are the other problem especially where there may be 2 or even 3 trains on one platform for several destinations.

A well balanced and completely reasonable answer, and I agree with it.

I think the answer is more cleaning staff then. Surely that isn't unreasonable?

 

[Anvil1984]

Which you should have more of too, seeing as though you are providing a service.

I've made that point several times, not something I can do about though that's HRs job though and customers service from feedback about the worst trains

 

[455driver]

455, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about your paying passengers.

I can't be bothered with your arrogant attitude on the subject!

Kettle and pot springs to mind!

Oh I have a fish on my other shoulder, well balanced me!

 

[DarloRich]

455, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about your paying passengers.

I can't be bothered with your arrogant attitude on the subject!

and to play devils advocate for a moment you seem to have the same attitude towards railway staff.
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A well balanced and completely reasonable answer, and I agree with it.

I think the answer is more cleaning staff then. Surely that isn't unreasonable?

sorry but that wasn't your original answer - your original answer was for on train staff do do it during slack periods.

 

[anti-pacer]

and to play devils advocate for a moment you seem to have the same attitude towards railway staff.

Not at all, I just take issue with the "I'm too good to pick litter up" attitude that some posters have displayed.

I have more of an issue with the inconsiderate scrotes who think it's acceptable to leave their sh** behind on a train!

Surely we ALL agree on that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

and to play devils advocate for a moment you seem to have the same attitude towards railway staff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


sorry but that wasn't your original answer - your original answer was for on train staff do do it during slack periods.

Within reason yes, as some do.

 

[455driver]

I think the answer is more cleaning staff then. Surely that isn't unreasonable?

I agree, who pays for them?

 

[Starmill]

I'm glad to see my advice (to not let this get too personal) was followed and three pages of polite, well informed discussion ensued so quickly...
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Back to Piccadilly 4-6 mins to change ends set destination, pre departure announcements (mandatory).

My bold - you're serious!?

 

[anti-pacer]

I agree, who pays for them?

Don't TOC's make a profit? If so, surely some of this could be ploughed back into cleaning.

I see arguments for and against on-train crew picking up litter. I also realise policing passengers who litter is difficult, if not impossible.

I also think that the majority of passengers want clean trains, and rightly so.

Most of you guys work on the trains, so you tell me, what's the solution?

 

[455driver]

Not at all, I just take issue with the "I'm too good to pick litter up" attitude that some posters have displayed.

Who said that then?

It couldnt possibly be me because I have merely stated why we cant clean up after the manky bstard passengers!
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Don't TOC's make a profit?

Uh no, well 3 do but Northern receive more in subsidy than those 3 pay the Government.

 

[anti-pacer]

Who said that then?

It couldnt possibly be me because I have merely stated why we cant clean up after the manky bstard passengers!

I wouldn't expect you to anyway, you're driving the bugger! hock:

 

[455driver]

I'm glad to see my advice (to not let this get too personal) was followed and three pages of polite, well informed discussion ensued so quickly...

You made I laff!

My bold - you're serious!?

Yes he is, the announcements are a legal requirement.

 

[Starmill]

I occasionally put other people's litter in the bin on trains. If I'm making a trip there myself and some is obvious then I'll take it with me, or if I have a bag from my lunch I'll sometimes fill it up before ditching it. If I'm taking a table seat and rubbish has been left in the bay I will often clear that too, even if a few bottles or cans of alcohol are involved.

What I won't do is go over the floor and under the seats and pick out all the litter, but its often easy to tell between what's 'safe' to pick up and what isn't.

For the record I have seen an ATW guard go through and clean his pacer between Cardiff and Penarth early morning (everyone but me got off at Cardiff, only 2 passengers on the train) and then go and wash his hands in the toilet! It was almost exclusively coffee cups.

 

[anti-pacer]

Uh no, well 3 do but Northern receive more in subsidy than those 3 pay the Government.

Bleedin' hell, never knew that!

Why are companies so keen to bid for franchises then? :?

 

[455driver]

I wouldn't expect you to anyway, you're driving the bugger! hock:

But I do clean up (a little) when I get the chance, in fact on one very memorable occasion during a rather hot summer when I was a guard our train had been stabled at Shepperton all night and still had all the mess on from the night before (a Saturday night) and when I opened the cab door to get in I nearly threw up it was stinking that bad (as it was summer the remnants of the burgers/pizza/kebab etc had turned in the heat). I released (and opened) every door on it and the driver and I cleaned the 8 coach 455 as best we could (every bin was literally rammed full with as much rubbish as we could physically get in them) in the 10 minutes we had to try and make it as pleasant as possible and we arranged for a stock change at Waterloo so it could be gone through properly.

I am not Anti passenger or Anti customer service but am realistic as to the difficulties Northern find themselves in and they simply dont have the money to employ more cleaners, they would like to employ them but it simply is not possible at least until refranchising happens.

 

[AndyLandy]

What is this nonsense?

Northern used to have a problem with dirty trains, but they seem to have already stepped up their efforts in this regard. I've been of a couple of their 142s and 150s in the last few months and they've all been refreshed inside and are clean and tidy.

Sure, Northern's franchise isn't a glamorous Intercity gig, their trains are largely old and noisy and their lines are slow. There's room for improvement, definitely, but they play the cards they're dealt.

A year ago, I'd have agreed that they needed to do something about the tidiness of their trains, but it looks like they now have.

As for magically expecting the guards to do it. Well, if you start from the assumption that all they do is "sit in the back cab and read the paper" then you're doomed to failure. Do you think the driver does the same in the front cab?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm glad to see my advice (to not let this get too personal) was followed and three pages of polite, well informed discussion ensued so quickly...
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My bold - you're serious!?

The MAJORITY of us do the mandatory Transec announcements, some don't they will get into bother! myself, 156 and many more won't. We do our best to keep high levels of customer service but more importantly do our best to keep passengers SAFE which is our 1st priority.