Any more DMUs?

[northwichcat]

LM have been touting this as a possible service pattern for some time now, but last I heard was it had been squashed by the ORR. Is it likely it'll get approval any time soon?

LM applied to extend the existing Euston-Crewe service to Liverpool and to divert one of the Birmingham-Liverpool services to Preston. ORR rejected this application citing it could not be done ahead of the next WCML recast, which has obviously been put back following the WC franchise fiasco.

Since then Network Rail in a draft RUS recommended at the next WCML recast the following should happen if it can be fitted in:
1. Divert the LM Euston-Crewe service away from Stone and extend it to Liverpool.
2. Introduce the proposed Birmingham-Preston service in lieu of a Birmingham-Liverpool service.
3. Extend the Manchester-Stoke stopper to Birmingham via Stone.
4. Divert half of the Manchester XC services via Crewe instead of Stoke.

 

[AndyLandy]

LM applied to extend the existing Euston-Crewe service to Liverpool and to divert one of the Birmingham-Liverpool services to Preston. ORR rejected this application citing it could not be done ahead of the next WCML recast, which has obviously been put back following the WC franchise fiasco.

Since then Network Rail in a draft RUS recommended at the next WCML recast the following should happen if it can be fitted in:
1. Divert the LM Euston-Crewe service away from Stone and extend it to Liverpool.
2. Introduce the proposed Birmingham-Preston service in lieu of a Birmingham-Liverpool service.
3. Extend the Manchester-Stoke stopper to Birmingham via Stone.
4. Divert half of the Manchester XC services via Crewe instead of Stoke.

So HTF might genuinely get 2 tph soon? That's excellent news. That'd hugely increase my journey opportunities. Do we know when the next recast is likely to be?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

3. Extend the Manchester-Stoke stopper to Birmingham via Stone.

I think that particular stopping service from Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham New Street, via Wolverhampton and Stafford, was one that I used many times in the early 1980's. There were also the few occasional Altrincham to Stafford services available at certain times of the morning and the evening.

 

[tbtc]

The effect of closure of lines following Beeching's report, with supposed permanent replacement by buses, is not really comparable with random short term bustitution following day to day problems though, is it...

True.

And, whilst we have thousands of miles of unelectrified track with regular passenger services on them, I (and will do even post CP5) struggle to see the argument for electrifying random freight lines for the sake of a couple of weekends of engineering diversions a year - there are bigger priorities.

 

[43074]

So HTF might genuinely get 2 tph soon? That's excellent news. That'd hugely increase my journey opportunities. Do we know when the next recast is likely to be?

December 2016 from what I've heard.

 

[Late Trains uk]

Option One:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WyWCFGKkNJ8
Option Two:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilJAczgfmHk
Or if George,Bungle and Cameron get there way all the Benefit claimants will have to pull carriages
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap-k4Qbt1B0

Good to see He's concerned about personal safety and a risk assessment means His orange Jacket and Gloves should prevent him from harm.

 

[The Ham]

Option One:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WyWCFGKkNJ8
Option Two:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilJAczgfmHk
Or if George,Bungle and Cameron get there way all the Benefit claimants will have to pull carriages
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap-k4Qbt1B0

Good to see He's concerned about personal safety and a risk assessment means His orange Jacket and Gloves should prevent him from harm.

Options one and two may get a few complaints from people as they look like passengers may get wetter and they may be a little less comfertable than using pacer, although having tried neither I can't be sure!

 

[northwichcat]

I think that particular stopping service from Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham New Street, via Wolverhampton and Stafford, was one that I used many times in the early 1980's. There were also the few occasional Altrincham to Stafford services available at certain times of the morning and the evening.

I imagine you would like a 350 with a First Class section forming the services which call at Prestbury.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I imagine you would like a 350 with a First Class section forming the services which call at Prestbury.

Naturally...

 

[edwin_m]

Naturally...

I'd have thought you'd need a Pullman version so as to be more posh than the First Class used by the plebs from Alderley Edge and Wilmslow.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd have thought you'd need a Pullman version so as to be more posh than the First Class used by the plebs from Alderley Edge and Wilmslow.

Indeed, you well state how we in our rural Prestbury environs (the best part of the "Cheshire Golden Triangle") view those modern interlopers from those other minor settlements stated in your posting. There is still not enough hard-standing for our drivers and footmen at Prestbury station to allow for the various barouche box carriages that we use en route from our mansions to the railway station.....

 

[northwichcat]

I'd have thought you'd need a Pullman version so as to be more posh than the First Class used by the plebs from Alderley Edge and Wilmslow.

Alderley Edge doesn't get any trains with First Class stopping there - the only trains that stop there are 323s. Wilmslow gets Pendolinos with First Class and occasional Voyagers with First Class.

 

[davyp]

LM applied to extend the existing Euston-Crewe service to Liverpool and to divert one of the Birmingham-Liverpool services to Preston. ORR rejected this application citing it could not be done ahead of the next WCML recast, which has obviously been put back following the WC franchise fiasco.

Since then Network Rail in a draft RUS recommended at the next WCML recast the following should happen if it can be fitted in:
1. Divert the LM Euston-Crewe service away from Stone and extend it to Liverpool.
2. Introduce the proposed Birmingham-Preston service in lieu of a Birmingham-Liverpool service.
3. Extend the Manchester-Stoke stopper to Birmingham via Stone.
4. Divert half of the Manchester XC services via Crewe instead of Stoke.

In the late 60's used to travel on the first Manchester Birmingham train from Stockport on my way back to college every 2nd Monday. Every station via Macclesfield, Stoke, Stone, Stafford Wolverhampton etc. on a Class 304. Still bouncing .....http://www.railforums.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif

 

[BlythPower]

Since then Network Rail in a draft RUS recommended at the next WCML recast the following should happen if it can be fitted in:
1. Divert the LM Euston-Crewe service away from Stone and extend it to Liverpool.
2. Introduce the proposed Birmingham-Preston service in lieu of a Birmingham-Liverpool service.
3. Extend the Manchester-Stoke stopper to Birmingham via Stone.
4. Divert half of the Manchester XC services via Crewe instead of Stoke.

Did anyone at LM or NR think to ask the people of the West Midlands what they'd prefer?

Two trains per hour to the fine city of Liverpool with all its attractions or one train per hour to Liverpool plus one to... Preston. Lovely. :roll:

 

[AndyLandy]

Did anyone at LM or NR think to ask the people of the West Midlands what they'd prefer?

Two trains per hour to the fine city of Liverpool with all its attractions or one train per hour to Liverpool plus one to... Preston. Lovely. :roll:

It's not like they can't change at Stafford or Crewe for more journey options though.

 

[northwichcat]

It's not like they can't change at Stafford or Crewe for more journey options though.

Exactly. I think it's sometimes quicker to change than to get the direct Liverpool-Birmingham train and changing also avoids a 350/2 all the way.

 

[Rhydgaled]

How many (route) miles will remain unelectrified at the end of CP5? There is over 650 route miles of electrification planned for CP5. Divided by five years that gives around 130 route miles per year. At that rate, another 2,000 route miles could be wired up by 2035. That's supposedly the limit on how far you can push IC125s, so I suspect DMU stock like 158s should last at least until then. Would there be much left requiring self-power after that?

I agree routes like the West highland, Far North/Kyle of Lochalsh, Cumbrian Coast and Cambrian Coast* are unlikely to be considered for electrification but are 170's, 171, or 172's with 1/3 and 2/3 door layouts suitable for such routes over 156's and 158's with vestibules and end doors? Would a new build stock based on 158 design be better long term solution for such self contained rural routes?

I think too many outer-suburban DMUs (170s etc.) were built, some of them should have been vestibule-end-door stock like 158s. I think a fleet of new units similar to a 158/442/444, either in electric form or bi-mode (depending on when current DMUs are life expired when electrification covers most of the network) is needed.

The Cambrian coast journey takes a bit too long for a suburban door layout in my opinion, and it runs through to Shrewsbury anyway with good speeds east of Machynlleth. 158s are perfect for the job in my opinion (although 159s, being 3-car and slightly more powerful, wouldn't go amiss)

Shorter branch lines with closely spaced stops (eg. Pembroke Dock - Carmarthen, but not Pembroke Dock - Swansea as it'd be too long a journey) could use suburban-door-layout stock, provided they have alot more legroom than a 150 if the journeys are over about 50mins.

 

[krus_aragon]

My understanding is additional services could run on that bit but not if it results in an additional train from the North terminating at Crewe. So, for instance, running trying to add in a Northwich-Crewe service at present would create difficulties. However, if you first extend the Piccadilly-Airport-Crewe service to Stoke then it would be easier to fit in a Northwich-Crewe service.

The issue (as I understand it) is that Crewe has bays for services terminating from the north (P9, P10) are on the eastern side of the station. They're ideally sited for services coming from Chester (via Beston Castle), but getting there from the Sandbach side would mean crossing the main line (assuming the current track layout permits it). Keeping the main platforms (P5, P6) clear for through services there's only platform 1 to terminate services on, and Northern are making good use of that one already.

If all Chester-Crewe services were sent round through Sandbach instead, that'd mean there wouldn't be any traffic making use of platforms 9, 10, 11 or 12. Nonetheless, it's an interesting idea...

 

[HSTEd]

Great, now this thread is making me think about alternatives to the Chester-Crewe line.

And this is why off topic discussion is bad, it eats my free time :P

 

[AndyLandy]

Great, now this thread is making me think about alternatives to the Chester-Crewe line.

And this is why off topic discussion is bad, it eats my free time :P

I know the feeling. I've already put far too much thought into that already!

 

[HSTEd]

As to redoubling the Middlewich Branch.... as far as I can tell it is only 14km long and has a passing loop near the half way mark.

Since only 2 trains per hour run between Crewe and Chester would it actually need redoubling to support such a service considering the lack of stops? Increasing the line speed from the current 20mph to 50mph would reduce the travel time on the single track section to only 10 minutes which should be enough to allow an intensive half hourly service.

Increasing it still further would get the journey time down to values more comparable to the current time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As to redoubling the Middlewich Branch.... as far as I can tell it is only 14km long and has a passing loop near the half way mark. Since only 2 trains per hour run between Crewe and Chester would it actually need redoubling to support such a service considering the lack of stops?

Increasing the line speed from the current 20mph to 50mph would reduce the travel time on the single track section to only 10 minutes which should be enough to allow an intensive half hourly service. Increasing it still further would get the journey time down to values more comparable to the current time.

Have you asked yourself why the 20mph restriction so applies ?

 

[HSTEd]

Have you asked yourself why the 20mph restriction so applies ?

Because the line is essentially used only for freight apart from very occasional engineering diversions.

A freight train doesn't care if it takes a long time to traverse the route.
But if the subsidence is a major problem then the better option is probably a chord at Halton.

Saves electrifying the branch.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But if the subsidence is a major problem then the better option is probably a chord at Halton. Saves electrifying the branch.

Brine extraction in the Middlewich area has been a problem there regarding subsidence.

 

[northwichcat]

Subsidence has been citied as a reason for the Leftwich viaduct being 20mph but Network Rail have found that the line could be raised to 50mph for all DMUs except Pacers with no work being done (except for the paperwork) and could be raised to 50mph for all passenger trains (but not freight) without a huge amount of expenditure.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Subsidence has been citied as a reason for the Leftwich viaduct being 20mph but Network Rail have found that the line could be raised to 50mph for all DMUs except Pacers with no work being done (except for the paperwork) and could be raised to 50mph for all passenger trains (but not freight) without a huge amount of expenditure.

The Leftwich viaduct has quite an amount of weight for the substrate below it to bear. Do you know when the last time was when Network Rail carried out substrate evaluation testing along various sections on the Middlewich line ?

 

[AndyLandy]

Great, now this thread is making me think about alternatives to the Chester-Crewe line.

And this is why off topic discussion is bad, it eats my free time :P

According to the WCML RUS I was just reading, the existing Crewe-Chester line doesn't get any faster than about 90mph.

Just thought I'd share that little nugget with you all.

 

[Buttsy]

The Leftwich viaduct has quite an amount of weight for the substrate below it to bear. Do you know when the last time was when Network Rail carried out substrate evaluation testing along various sections on the Middlewich line ?

If there is a Leftwich viaduct, where is the Right one?????

 

[AndyLandy]

If there is a Leftwich viaduct, where is the Right one?????

There's a Northwich viaduct, but no Rightwich. Nor a Southwich for that matter.

 

[edwin_m]

There's a Middlewich. And wouldn't Leftwich be Rightwich if you went through it the other way?