Any more DMUs?

[HSTEd]

According to the WCML RUS I was just reading, the existing Crewe-Chester line doesn't get any faster than about 90mph.

Just thought I'd share that little nugget with you all.

So with proper design a chord at halton might be able to match existing journey times? Such a chord would likely need a reconstruction of Crewe to work properly though. Perhaps when HS2 arrives in the area?

 

[AndyLandy]

So with proper design a chord at halton might be able to match existing journey times? Such a chord would likely need a reconstruction of Crewe to work properly though. Perhaps when HS2 arrives in the area?

I'd never even considered putting the chord in at Halton. Either route traffic via the existing Middlewich line, or a new chord at Hartford. But I guess Halton's equally a possibility. It's a bit further out, but if the line through Helsby and Frodsham is easiest to electrify, it's worth considering.

 

[HSTEd]

I'd never even considered putting the chord in at Halton. Either route traffic via the existing Middlewich line, or a new chord at Hartford. But I guess Halton's equally a possibility. It's a bit further out, but if the line through Helsby and Frodsham is easiest to electrify, it's worth considering.

Ooops, I meant Hartford as the primary one myself.

Halton is a little far in my opinion, unless ofcourse Helsby and Frodsham were being electrified anyway....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Halton is a little far in my opinion, unless of course Helsby and Frodsham were being electrified anyway....

Which then awakes the oft-discussed electrified North Wales coast line proposals and a northern electrified link to the WCML, Liverpool and Manchester. through Helsby and Frodsham.

 

[RobShipway]

Which then awakes the oft-discussed electrified North Wales coast line proposals and a northern electrified link to the WCML, Liverpool and Manchester. through Helsby and Frodsham.

It would be good to have the North Wales coast line(NWCL) electrified and I do not why it has not been included in anything that happens in CP6, but I guess others lines are easy to electrify than the NWCL line.

 

[ainsworth74]

We've only just finished specifiying CP5 it's a bit early for CP6 indeed the majority of what I've heard about CP6 has been speculation rather than firm plans...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

CP6 (2019-2024) is a hell of a lot nearer to 2013 than the HS2 start-finish date, but that appears not to stop many people discussing it..... and HS3 and HS4 (their terms, not mine)...hock:

 

[Rhydgaled]

We've only just finished specifiying CP5 it's a bit early for CP6 indeed the majority of what I've heard about CP6 has been speculation rather than firm plans...

I disagree, I think they need to hurry up and specify some of the plans for CP6 now. They are currently ordering bi-mode IEP trains on a 27.5 year contract for introduction towards the end of CP5. While the bi-modes might have their engines removed after 10-15 years, sets introduced in 2018 could be running under the wires within three years (if Hull, Weston-Super-Mare etc. are electrified in the first year or two of CP6).

 

[tbtc]

It would be good to have the North Wales coast line(NWCL) electrified

It'd be a waste to electrify the line along the coast if half of the services that use the route west of Chester are going to be HSTs from Cardiff (given the speculation on here about an hourly Cardiff - Holyhead run by "spare" HSTs, post IEP).

Electrification generally means amending the service pattern to maximise the number of services under the wires that actually use the wires - so its probably going to be a case of either an electrified coast (with only a token couple of services to Cardiff) or an hourly Cardiff - Holyhead service.

It'd be a long way to electrify for the sake of just one EMU per hour (the Manchester - Llandudno service) and only a token electric service beyond Llandudno Junction to Holyhead - there are a lot of unelectrified lines with more than one train an hour that would be better to focus on (if Holyhead has to have an hourly Cardiff service).

My benchmark is two trains an hour - if electrification will see two EMUs per hour replacing two DMUs per hour on a section of line then its worth it (e.g. the Warrington Central route, Southport to Bolton, Calder Valley).

 

[The Ham]

I disagree, I think they need to hurry up and specify some of the plans for CP6 now. They are currently ordering bi-mode IEP trains on a 27.5 year contract for introduction towards the end of CP5. While the bi-modes might have their engines removed after 10-15 years, sets introduced in 2018 could be running under the wires within three years (if Hull, Weston-Super-Mare etc. are electrified in the first year or two of CP6).

I doubt that there will be a need to scrap many (if any) engines after 10-15 years even with a lot of electrification. Partly as there are likely to be a lot of lines where bimodal trains will still be needed and partly because the "spare" engines can always used in new "electric" IEP trains or (more relevant to this thread) in new DMU's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My benchmark is two trains an hour - if electrification will see two EMUs per hour replacing two DMUs per hour on a section of line then its worth it (e.g. the Warrington Central route, Southport to Bolton, Calder Valley).

Number of units may not be the best threshold to work to, a better way would be to work on the number of coaches/seats which can be changed over. As a service which has 2 coaches running every half an hour would free up less stock than a service with 5 coaches running hourly.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It'd be a waste to electrify the line along the coast if half of the services that use the route west of Chester are going to be HSTs from Cardiff (given the speculation on here about an hourly Cardiff - Holyhead run by "spare" HSTs, post IEP).

Electrification generally means amending the service pattern to maximise the number of services under the wires that actually use the wires - so its probably going to be a case of either an electrified coast (with only a token couple of services to Cardiff) or an hourly Cardiff - Holyhead service.

I agree. They should put the IC125s (assuming they get them) on the Cardiff/Swansea - Manchester service and reduce through Holyhead - Cardiff to trains 2 or 3 trains each way (these should be express services like the orriginal southbound Gerald but with a Wrexham stop instead of Crewe).

It'd be a long way to electrify for the sake of just one EMU per hour (the Manchester - Llandudno service) and only a token electric service beyond Llandudno Junction to Holyhead

Not exactly a token service, with the London trains, but not quite hourly all day which would ruin the case for wiring the north Wales coast.

I doubt that there will be a need to scrap many (if any) engines after 10-15 years even with a lot of electrification. Partly as there are likely to be a lot of lines where bimodal trains will still be needed and partly because the "spare" engines can always used in new "electric" IEP trains or (more relevant to this thread) in new DMU's

I suppose moving IEP engines (assuming they aren't too big) to a new order of regional express (E)DMUs might make sense. It'd make even more sense if the IEPs were ordered as electric sets with the diesel engines used in new regional (E)DMUs from the off though. Bi-mode trains will be needed but probably not on Intercity lines.

My benchmark is two trains an hour - if electrification will see two EMUs per hour replacing two DMUs per hour on a section of line then its worth it (e.g. the Warrington Central route, Southport to Bolton, Calder Valley).

Number of units may not be the best threshold to work to, a better way would be to work on the number of coaches/seats which can be changed over. As a service which has 2 coaches running every half an hour would free up less stock than a service with 5 coaches running hourly.

Agreed, longer and more powerful trains should boost the case. Personally, I consider routes with short regional/suburban DMUs to be worth wiring only if they run twice an hour or more. However, routes that see a fuel-thirsty 5-car Voyager or a 2+8 IC125 just once an hour are higher up my priority list. I think I'd even put an hourly IC service ahead of a 2tph service worked by single 150s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It'd be a long way to electrify for the sake of just one EMU per hour (the Manchester - Llandudno service) and only a token electric service beyond Llandudno Junction to Holyhead - there are a lot of unelectrified lines with more than one train an hour that would be better to focus on (if Holyhead has to have an hourly Cardiff service).

Whilst I am well aware of the current ATW Manchester to Llandudno service that uses the Class 175 DMU, was there not a recent mention of services from West Yorkshire (that are planned to run on EMU after the planned electrification) and also EMU services from Birmingham and Crewe running along the North Wales coast ?

I will stand corrected if my assumptions concerning the West Yorkshire service proposals are incorrect.

 

[tbtc]

Number of units may not be the best threshold to work to, a better way would be to work on the number of coaches/seats which can be changed over. As a service which has 2 coaches running every half an hour would free up less stock than a service with 5 coaches running hourly.

At the moment, (as well as the energy arguments for electrification) one of our priorities ought to be Pacer replacement - so releasing 2x2coach DMUs would probably be of more use than releasing one five coach one.

Whilst I am well aware of the current ATW Manchester to Llandudno service that uses the Class 175 DMU, was there not a recent mention of services from West Yorkshire (that are planned to run on EMU after the planned electrification) and also EMU services from Birmingham and Crewe running along the North Wales coast ?

I will stand corrected if my assumptions concerning the West Yorkshire service proposals are incorrect.

I think that there was suggestion of something from the Calder Valley route running through to Chester (as an extra Manchester - Chester service), but these things are sometimes just suggestions

 

[AndyLandy]

Agreed, longer and more powerful trains should boost the case. Personally, I consider routes with short regional/suburban DMUs to be worth wiring only if they run twice an hour or more. However, routes that see a fuel-thirsty 5-car Voyager or a 2+8 IC125 just once an hour are higher up my priority list. I think I'd even put an hourly IC service ahead of a 2tph service worked by single 150s.

Mixed feelings on this one. In principle, I agree. In practice, the 142s and 150s are old and knackered and need replacing, whereas the Voyagers have got another 20-odd years of life left in them.

If the Voyagers can realistically be displaced to secondary routes, and downrated to be more efficient, with a top speed of 100-110mph, then maybe. Otherwise, it seems even more wasteful to remove them from service early.

 

[northwichcat]

I think that there was suggestion of something from the Calder Valley route running through to Chester (as an extra Manchester - Chester service), but these things are sometimes just suggestions

Well it's part of Network Rail's Northern Hub plans so probably as likely as at least some Blackpool-London services being included in a future West Coast mainline recast. It's not just something someone like Halton council would like.

 

[The Ham]

At the moment, (as well as the energy arguments for electrification) one of our priorities ought to be Pacer replacement - so releasing 2x2coach DMUs would probably be of more use than releasing one five coach one.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Waterloo-Exeter services which would free up to 10 coach trains whilst freeing up a lot of 2 and 3 coach sets to be used elsewhere.

 

[Buttsy]

Mixed feelings on this one. In principle, I agree. In practice, the 142s and 150s are old and knackered and need replacing, whereas the Voyagers have got another 20-odd years of life left in them.

If the Voyagers can realistically be displaced to secondary routes, and downrated to be more efficient, with a top speed of 100-110mph, then maybe. Otherwise, it seems even more wasteful to remove them from service early.

I'm sure that it would be possible to do to Voyagers what was done to a number of 1st generation DMUs in that an engine was removed from a driving motor and use just one engine. I know this was done with Calder Valley units (though they also lost their middle trailer) but I think it was done to a number of other units.

If a Voyager can have 1 or 2 coaches 'de-engined', leaving it with 2 or 3 powered cars, I'm sure they'd be suitable for longish distance services that run over lower speed lines and not extend journey times excessively if at all. (Newcastle - Carlisle, Carlisle - Glasgow via Dumfries, Glasgow - Stranraer, Leeds - Morecambe, Cumbrian coast, Bristol - Weymouth are the sort of routes that I was thinking of, though they may not be suited to all of these specific routes).

 

[Rhydgaled]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Waterloo-Exeter services which would free up to 10 coach trains whilst freeing up a lot of 2 and 3 coach sets to be used elsewhere.

I agree with you there, great idea. They are regional express DMUs too which are in particularly short supply (suburban DMUs will come from Thames valley electrification).

159s to replace 2-car 158s elsewhere (boosting services by 1 coach) which in turn can to goto FirstGW to lengthen their hybrid 3-cars on Cardiff - Portsmouth to 4-car formations for example.

 

[tbtc]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Waterloo-Exeter services which would free up to 10 coach trains whilst freeing up a lot of 2 and 3 coach sets to be used elsewhere.

The SWT diesel services would be high up my list, since they'd see a lot of two/three coach DMUs being freed up, which could replace a lot of Pacers/ 150s/ 153s etc (directly or indirectly).

 

[Murph]

If a Voyager can have 1 or 2 coaches 'de-engined', leaving it with 2 or 3 powered cars, I'm sure they'd be suitable for longish distance services that run over lower speed lines and not extend journey times excessively if at all. (Newcastle - Carlisle, Carlisle - Glasgow via Dumfries, Glasgow - Stranraer, Leeds - Morecambe, Cumbrian coast, Bristol - Weymouth are the sort of routes that I was thinking of, though they may not be suited to all of these specific routes).

They could fit larger engines in the 2 driving vehicles, remove all the under-floor engines, and benefit from quieter+smoother coaches, better fuel efficiency, easier maintenance, etc.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They could fit larger engines in the 2 driving vehicles, remove all the under-floor engines, and benefit from quieter+smoother coaches, better fuel efficiency, easier maintenance, etc.

While good, unnecessarily expensive. Remove engine in coach 2 & 4 (keep even traction distribution) Limit to 110 and fill the ends with seats. Partition 1st Class to half a coach.

 

[RobShipway]

It'd be a waste to electrify the line along the coast if half of the services that use the route west of Chester are going to be HSTs from Cardiff (given the speculation on here about an hourly Cardiff - Holyhead run by "spare" HSTs, post IEP).

Electrification generally means amending the service pattern to maximise the number of services under the wires that actually use the wires - so its probably going to be a case of either an electrified coast (with only a token couple of services to Cardiff) or an hourly Cardiff - Holyhead service.

It'd be a long way to electrify for the sake of just one EMU per hour (the Manchester - Llandudno service) and only a token electric service beyond Llandudno Junction to Holyhead - there are a lot of unelectrified lines with more than one train an hour that would be better to focus on (if Holyhead has to have an hourly Cardiff service).

My benchmark is two trains an hour - if electrification will see two EMUs per hour replacing two DMUs per hour on a section of line then its worth it (e.g. the Warrington Central route, Southport to Bolton, Calder Valley).

You have not just got the Cardiff services going to Holyhead. You have services from Manchester and Voyagers from London which if the line was electrified could be replaced by Baby Pendolino's. The Class 175's doing Manchester - Holyhead, could be replace by either Class 377 or Class 350 or IEP or similar older stock trains.

As others have mentioned you could potentially also have others services like for instance Holyhead - Liverpool, Holyhead - Cleethorpes which would make the electrification of the line cost effective. Plus I believe there is a few freight trains that use the route as well or could potentially use the route?

 

[tbtc]

You have not just got the Cardiff services going to Holyhead. You have services from Manchester and Voyagers from London which if the line was electrified could be replaced by Baby Pendolino's. The Class 175's doing Manchester - Holyhead, could be replace by either Class 377 or Class 350 or IEP or similar older stock trains.

As others have mentioned you could potentially also have others services like for instance Holyhead - Liverpool, Holyhead - Cleethorpes which would make the electrification of the line cost effective. Plus I believe there is a few freight trains that use the route as well or could potentially use the route?

How many Manchester services go to Holyhead though? Most of them run to Llandudno, like I said, so even if you electrified all of north Wales you'd only save the hourly Manchester - Llandudno plus a handful of Virgin services a day (not all of which run to Holyhead either).

I'm all for direct services from Wales to Liverpool though.

 

[Gareth Marston]

How many Manchester services go to Holyhead though? Most of them run to Llandudno, like I said, so even if you electrified all of north Wales you'd only save the hourly Manchester - Llandudno plus a handful of Virgin services a day (not all of which run to Holyhead either).

I'm all for direct services from Wales to Liverpool though.

N Wales Coast will only be electrified if the obsession with north to south trains goes.

 

[AndyLandy]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Waterloo-Exeter services which would free up to 10 coach trains whilst freeing up a lot of 2 and 3 coach sets to be used elsewhere.

The problem with WAT-EXD is that whilst there's almost certainly a good business case for electrifying to Salisbury, but the rest of the route up to Exeter is more of a problem. It's unlikely to be worth electrifying without redoubling, and once you add all the costs together, I suspect the BCR falls through the floor. So, if you wanted to free up the copious quantity of Express Sprinters currently running the service, you'd need to solve those problem.

I think I've covered this before, but basically you choose one of:
1. Spend a fat wad of cash on full redoubling and electrifying. Apply dual-voltage 444-alikes (Oh look, it's the 444-alikes again. At least this time it's for SWT though!)
2. Split the service in half. Make WAT-SAL into EMU territory and run EXD-SAL (or maybe even EXD-SOU) with much fewer DMUs. You could still run the odd few of EXD-WAT through services in the peaks.
3. Come up with some kind of bi-modal EDMU design and use that.
4. Get some different DMUs for the service, remembering that the capacity of a 10x 158/9 is needed on peak trains and platform lengths won't allow for longer trains. In other words, Voyagers aren't going to help you here.
5. Accept that Express Sprinters are stuck here for the foreseeable and look elsewhere for your DMU cascade needs.

Unless one of you clever folks can come up with something I've not thought of.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Dear father Christmas can we please please have GWML electrification to Plymouth. That way the Southern route to Exeter could become a useful electrified alternative route. You did ask Andy Landy .

OK OK so its not much used as a diversionary route currently . Suppose its only worth electrifying to Salisbury and I can see that being overhead 25Kv.

Sod it - just close it West of Salisbury like Beeching tried !.

 

[JamesRowden]

The problem with WAT-EXD is that whilst there's almost certainly a good business case for electrifying to Salisbury, but the rest of the route up to Exeter is more of a problem. It's unlikely to be worth electrifying without redoubling, and once you add all the costs together, I suspect the BCR falls through the floor. So, if you wanted to free up the copious quantity of Express Sprinters currently running the service, you'd need to solve those problem.

I think I've covered this before, but basically you choose one of:
1. Spend a fat wad of cash on full redoubling and electrifying. Apply dual-voltage 444-alikes (Oh look, it's the 444-alikes again. At least this time it's for SWT though!)
2. Split the service in half. Make WAT-SAL into EMU territory and run EXD-SAL (or maybe even EXD-SOU) with much fewer DMUs. You could still run the odd few of EXD-WAT through services in the peaks.
3. Come up with some kind of bi-modal EDMU design and use that.
4. Get some different DMUs for the service, remembering that the capacity of a 10x 158/9 is needed on peak trains and platform lengths won't allow for longer trains. In other words, Voyagers aren't going to help you here.
5. Accept that Express Sprinters are stuck here for the foreseeable and look elsewhere for your DMU cascade needs.

Unless one of you clever folks can come up with something I've not thought of.

2a. Electrify Salisbury-Basingstoke and operate using EMUs that split/join at Salisbury and are push/pulled by a loco (that can power the EMUs' non-tractive systems and can control and be controlled by the EMU) between Salisbury and Exeter(/Bristol).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Re 2a. Good point. Actually its funny that the 33/1s and 4TCs never got to do this decades ago. It was only just round the corner that the same thing was happening beyond Bournemouth (dont tell dAft - it will spoil their logic).

 

[AndyLandy]

2a. Electrify Salisbury-Basingstoke and operate using EMUs that split/join at Salisbury and are push/pulled by a loco (that can power the EMUs' non-tractive systems and can control and be controlled by the EMU) between Salisbury and Exeter(/Bristol).

Ooh, I like that idea!

Run pairs of 5-car EMUs between Waterloo and Salisbury. Split at SAL and diesel-drag one unit the rest of the way to Exeter.

 

[The Ham]

2a. Electrify Salisbury-Basingstoke and operate using EMUs that split/join at Salisbury and are push/pulled by a loco (that can power the EMUs' non-tractive systems and can control and be controlled by the EMU) between Salisbury and Exeter(/Bristol).

2b Electrify Basingstoke to Yeovil run EMU's on a half hour frequnecy between there and London (with an hourly service which is 5 coach to Sailsbury where they join with a 5 coach EMU from Southampston, also electrified) with an hourly DMU service from Exeter to Westbury (linking both Yeovil stations) being run as a DMU (across platform connection and overall journey time not changing because of the EMU's, so hopefuly not too much of a problem for most people). Then have once every 2 hours a DMU service through to London so that west of Yeovil still has a though service, but with the advantage of needing about 1/4 of the DMU's SWT's currently have.

2b1 extend some/all of the Exeter-Westbury service to Oakhampton and/or Bath and/or increase the frequency to 3 every 2 hours (i.e. every 45 minutes).