Passengers treated just like peasants...

[talltim]

Our flat fares are displayed quite clearly above the timetable at just about every bus stop we serve (probably all, but there may be a small number without) where I believe it also tells you that no change is given.

My nearest bus stop doesn't even have a timetable on it!

There are also posters on plenty of city centre stops which are a guide to using our buses in multiple languages for tourists, which include a part about having the exact fare.

We still get people asking what the fare is and then trying to pay with notes (or occasionally by card). :roll:

Never heard of micropayments? Pay by phone or NFC card? How behind the times!
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Perhaps I'm a bit anal as if I know I'm getting a bus tomorrow I'm worrying about having the correct fare today. My rucksack is usually well stocked for change at station coffee bars so I rarely have a problem. How I love Oyster though.

A BIT anal?

 

[michael769]

So, if someone puts in lots of 10ps, is it the rail company's fault (that it pays out 10ps)?

Yes for two reasons. Firstly the ToC should ensure that it has a sufficient float to provide adequate change, and allow adequate storage for input cash. Secondly it could be designed to provide a "no change given - buy on the train" notice to warn customer in advance if it is unable to fulfill the ToC's obligations to provide change in a satisfactory fashion.

 

[455driver]

The TOC are under no obligation to provide change, it is up to the 'customer' to tender the correct fare despite what some people like to believe.

 

[jon0844]

Yes for two reasons. Firstly the ToC should ensure that it has a sufficient float to provide adequate change, and allow adequate storage for input cash. Secondly it could be designed to provide a "no change given - buy on the train" notice to warn customer in advance if it is unable to fulfill the ToC's obligations to provide change in a satisfactory fashion.

There's only so much money that can be held in a TVM to pay back as change. At some point, excess coins must be transferred down to a secure cash box.

You could of course stop accepting notes, as I am sure that it's someone paying for a small fare with a £20 that uses up the float in no time.

However, in most circumstances, it probably averages out as the next few people pay in coins and refloat it.

It's not an exact science though, and so sometimes it will have plenty of change and others it won't - and of course, sometimes it will be made up of lots of small change if that's what was put in.

I'm not sure how much more discussion there can be on this. The way a TVM works, or any vending machine, is quite simple - but some people are clearly forgetting about the security implications of having a machine with hundreds of pounds to give as change, so as never to run out or force the payout of 50p, 20p or 10p coins instead.

 

[orpine]

This is another reason I hate TVM's. £18 in lose change (£20 note for a cheap ticket), even £1 coins is unreasonable. The fact that TVM's often times don't take the note at all or will alternately give you a "go to a manned station within a week if you want your money back" receipt only makes them even less appealing.

 

[vjm1975]

Out of interest, if all businesses dealing with customer transactions insisted on applying a no change policy, how would anyone have any change to offer the correct amount for something? Most ATM's give a minimum of £10 notes, very few seem to give £5's and banks actively discourage over the counter withdrawals, so no chance of getting any coins there.

 

[Deerfold]

You could of course stop accepting notes, as I am sure that it's someone paying for a small fare with a £20 that uses up the float in no time.

Or the Northern solution - many (most?) of their machines that accept cash only take 5 and 10 pound notes - annoying if you've just been to a cash manhine that only had 20s left.

 

[martybabes]

The TOC are under no obligation to provide change, it is up to the 'customer' to tender the correct fare despite what some people like to believe.

And your authority for this statement is?

 

[michael769]

There's only so much money that can be held in a TVM to pay back as change. At some point, excess coins must be transferred down to a secure cash box.

It is perfectly possible to design a system that can securely retrieve any cash stored (ATMs do it day in and day out.). It may cost more, and possibly too much to justify doing it but that is a business decision that is within the control of the ToC.

 

[Deerfold]

It is perfectly possible to design a system that can securely retrieve any cash stored (ATMs do it day in and day out.). It may cost more, and possibly too much to justify doing it but that is a business decision that is within the control of the ToC.

ATMs tend to be a lot more securely fitted.

If you're only going to allow TVMs that are that secure you'll reduce the number of sites where they can be installed.

ATMs also don't have to cope with unknown quantities of coins and notes that will be put in.

How many should they cope with? Why that amount?

 

[EM2]

And numerous times an ATM has informed me that it has only £20 notes available, when I've wanted to withdraw £50.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well, you'd expect this headline to be some of the usual whinge about rubbish trains, high fares or what not....but no....

My Mum just pointed out to me that the local paper (Reporter Series) has a 1/4 page of the "letters" section devoted to the drivel below...

http://www.dewsburyreporter.co.uk/n...s-treated-[b]just-like-peasants[/b]-1-6086725

Lucky that the spirit of Wat Tyler was not there to make a criticism of this, with memories of his Peasants Revolt that was in vogue in 1381...

 

[jb]

It is perfectly possible to design a system that can securely retrieve any cash stored (ATMs do it day in and day out.). It may cost more, and possibly too much to justify doing it but that is a business decision that is within the control of the ToC.

It is a "business / cost decision" that prevents a punter from showing up at Falls of Cruachan at 7am on a Tuesday and buying a 14-day first class ALR from a TVM using a combination of cheques, RTVs and 5p pieces.

Just sayin'.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is a "business / cost decision" that prevents a punter from showing up at Falls of Cruachan at 7am on a Tuesday and buying a 14-day first class ALR from a TVM using a combination of cheques, RTVs and 5p pieces.

Falls of Cruachan with its single platform only has its "bus shelter" for the unwary rail traveller and is only open for certain periods of the year. The thought of a rail employee being stationed on there at 0700 on a Tuesday to sell a 14 day ALR in lieu of the non-existant ticket machine with the combination of tender in your posting rather stretches the term "customer service" to the most extreme realms of reality...

 

[michael769]

ATMs tend to be a lot more securely fitted.

Which is something that could be done to TVMs.

If you're only going to allow TVMs that are that secure you'll reduce the number of sites where they can be installed.

They don't have to be secure to do their job, indeed it would reduce the costs. Again that is a business decision as to how much will be spend on securing them - basically a trade off against the cost of the kit and the cost of losses due to crime.

ATMs also don't have to cope with unknown quantities of coins and notes that will be put in.

Nor do TVMs - they will be designed to cope with a specified maximim specified by the client.

How many should they cope with? Why that amount?

Again that is a business decision for the client to make. Why a given amount? It is another trade off between the cost of the kit and it's ability to cope with demand (and thus the costs incurred when it fails to do so).

I am not saying that the ToCs are making bad decisions about where the boundaries lie, just trying to point out that it is the ToCs who specify the kit who decide where those boundaries lie, and that that decision is entirely within their control, so the argument that this is something they can do nothing about is simply wrong.

They could do something about it! That does not mean I think they should, but it does mean that they have to accept responsibility when their decisions have a negative impact on their customer service. The simple reality is that all businesses have to make trade offs between the costs they incur and the standards of service they offer to their customers, the better businesses take responsibility for those trade offs, the poor ones hide behind excuses.
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It is a "business / cost decision" that prevents a punter from showing up at Falls of Cruachan at 7am on a Tuesday and buying a 14-day first class ALR from a TVM using a combination of cheques, RTVs and 5p pieces.

Just sayin'.

Very true. Indeed it is a business decision that prevents the same punter from buying a ticket at the ticket office at the location.

It would be insane to provide a manned office at a location like that, but it would not be impossible.

 

[jon0844]

Are there any such machines in use around the world? TVMs are not really that similar to an ATM, which is usually very securely installed and accessed from behind.

Many are already set to card only for security reasons. I think you'd soon find many more would be broken into and of no use to anyone when regularly out of service.

 

[Late Trains uk]

It is in the TOC's interest to make them as Customer friendly as possible.If they want to maximise there revenue.
If they constantly give out too much change or refuse,then Passengers will just think ''sod it I will buy on the Train'' and then it falls on the Conductor's or departing Station to then take the fare,which will often lead to missed revenue.

If the Machines are going to be so busy that they are going to be so full of money from sales then it would be worthwhile staffing the Station.Or at least emptying/restocking it more often.
I

 

[edwin_m]

Are there any such machines in use around the world? TVMs are not really that similar to an ATM, which is usually very securely installed and accessed from behind.

Aren't the Underground's TVMs all accessed from behind? Some fairly extensive rebuilding would be needed to do this at all stations.

 

[jon0844]

As said above, this is a first world problem and not even a big problem anyway. TVMs give change and probably do fine most of the time. Every now and then they'll run out or have to give small coins - but life goes on.

I can't wait to see how someone in a penalty fare area gets on by saying they didn't buy a ticket because they didn't want to get loads of coins back!

 

[Late Trains uk]

As said above, this is a first world problem and not even a big problem anyway. TVMs give change and probably do fine most of the time. Every now and then they'll run out or have to give small coins - but life goes on.

I can't wait to see how someone in a penalty fare area gets on by saying they didn't buy a ticket because they didn't want to get loads of coins back!

Would the Penalty fare issuer accept 100 10p's,If that's all the Passenger had on them or did not fancy using the notes he has on Him?
It should be the same for both sides.If it's OK to give it to a Passenger then it should be OK for that Passenger to do likewise.The onus should be on the service providers.

 

[Deerfold]

Would the Penalty fare issuer accept 100 10p's,If that's all the Passenger had on them or did not fancy using the notes he has on Him?
It should be the same for both sides.If it's OK to give it to a Passenger then it should be OK for that Passenger to do likewise.The onus should be on the service providers.

Definitely not.

As the lowest penalty fare is £20.00.

 

[Clip]

With the rise and rise of contactless cards why do bus companies not offer this as a means to pay then?

Most people on here cry their eyes out about certain cards not being accepted by a guard on a train yet I see no wailing or gnashing of teeth because bus companies do not seem to offer such a function. And given their fares are smaller in general then why are they not at the forefront of the contactless payment revolution?

 

[Deerfold]

With the rise and rise of contactless cards why do bus companies not offer this as a means to pay then?

Most people on here cry their eyes out about certain cards not being accepted by a guard on a train yet I see no wailing or gnashing of teeth because bus companies do not seem to offer such a function. And given their fares are smaller in general then why are they not at the forefront of the contactless payment revolution?

Some do. However as these will generally be off-line transactions (you may be suprised just how many small holes in signal there are, even in large cities).

This means that if any of the transactions are fraudulent or cannot be met by funds in the account then the company will have to take the hit.
I wasn't aware of the "rise and rise" of these cards.

Apart from on London's buses the only shops I've come across that accept contactless cards are fast food outlets - and there's only one of those that I frequent regularly. The venue in question has also commented that I'm one of their few customers to use the facility.

 

[rebmcr]

This means that if any of the transactions are fraudulent or cannot be met by funds in the account then the company will have to take the hit.

It's not like they've lost anything. The M6 Toll is authentication-less to speed up the gates, because it too loses nothing tangible from a fraudulent transaction.

 

[dk1]

A BIT anal?

Think it goes back to 'Exact Fare Only' buses operated by Great Yarmouth Corporation when i was a child & finding it unbelievable that people give train guards a £20 note for a small local fare. i would feel terrible doing that.

 

[455driver]

And your authority for this statement is?

The same authority that those who say TOCs must give the correct change in the denomination that the 'customer' requests.

If its good enough for them then its good enough for me, if you have a problem with that then so be it, I dont really care because this is just another moaning thread about how poorly treated the 'customer' is by the nasty railway simply because the 'customer' is too lazy (or thick) to carry some change around with them whether they think they will need it or not!

 

[FGW_DID]

Some people really need to get a grip on their lives, do you refuse change in a shop or a pub just because it doesn't contain the denominations of your choice, I doubt it!

 

[Clip]

Some do. However as these will generally be off-line transactions (you may be suprised just how many small holes in signal there are, even in large cities).

This means that if any of the transactions are fraudulent or cannot be met by funds in the account then the company will have to take the hit.
I wasn't aware of the "rise and rise" of these cards.

Apart from on London's buses the only shops I've come across that accept contactless cards are fast food outlets - and there's only one of those that I frequent regularly. The venue in question has also commented that I'm one of their few customers to use the facility.

Well I think its disgusting. All bus companies should offer this facitlity and to not do so is outrageous. Just what do we pay our bus fares for then? They should roll it out immediatly so that the customer is not inconvenienced. Bloody buss fat cats rolling in profits and not thinking about their passengers needs and wishes.

Renationalise all the buses righ thtis minute.

 

[island]

Contactless card transactions are always offline, and the card will reject or refer for a security check under certain circumstances.

 

[Deerfold]

It's not like they've lost anything. The M6 Toll is authentication-less to speed up the gates, because it too loses nothing tangible from a fraudulent transaction.

Surely that depends whether the passenger would have travelled anyway and paid for the journey by other means?