Passengers treated just like peasants...

[Goatboy]

People who want to use a large note should not use a TVM, they should use a staffed ticket office.

Oh wait..

 

[starrymarkb]

Think yourself lucky that you can get change when buying a bus fare. Here in Reading, it's exact fares only. Not fair on the unaware traveller but that's how it's done.

My other thought was do ticket machines give out notes in change? I'd you put in a large denomination note for a small fare, what else do you expect ?

It's interesting to note that most of the "Exact Fare Only" bus companies are council owned.

 

[34D]

It's interesting to note that most of the "Exact Fare Only" bus companies are council owned.

Are there any others apart from Reading or Edinburgh?

 

[185143]

It's hardly the end of the world though. I got change from a machine in Sainsburys Local at Man Picc in more 2p's than I would have liked (by "more" I mean getting any at all) the other week, but these things happen

That happens to me every time! I might put £1.50 in the machine for something that costs £1.30. 9 times out of ten I get 10 2p coins back!

 

[Michael.Y]

Are there any others apart from Reading or Edinburgh?

Newport Transport and Cardiff Bus are both surviving municipal bus operators (albeit operated at "arms length") which enforce an exact-fare policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_bus_companies

As for not being able to change a note, sometimes early in the morning I've had to accept two or three £20s in a row for amounts less than £5. As such your supply of £5s and £1s can soon dry up, especially on early mornings when you cannot get change from anywhere - workplace or otherwise. In these events in the past I have "owed" the person, writing a receipt and returning to them as soon as I have that all important change, or taken a card. Proud to so far have never been forced to refuse a sale.

I have had to give £10+ in £1 change before now.

 

[dzug2]

Are there any others apart from Reading or Edinburgh?

London - where machines are in use

 

[pjnathanail]

Are there any others apart from Reading or Edinburgh?

Nottingham City Transport-82% owned by the council, exact fare on all but the 1 and 100

 

[rebmcr]

Dublin Bus is exact fare, not local authority owned but state-owned via an arm's-length.

 

[34D]

London - where machines are in use

Can someone clarify here. I understood that:

-it was no longer compulsory to use the roadside TVMs, and that they are in fact being removed

-drivers are able to give change from the £2.40 flat cash fare.

Anyone clarify?

 

[Mojo]

West Midlands (National Express), Claribels (an independent West Midlands operator), and First in Glasgow are exact fare. I also get the feeling Thamesdown in Swindon (another municipal) might be.

Personally I wish more areas were exact fare. Buses are painfully slow where it doesn't exist.

 

[asylumxl]

As for not being able to change a note, sometimes early in the morning I've had to accept two or three £20s in a row for amounts less than £5. As such your supply of £5s and £1s can soon dry up, especially on early mornings when you cannot get change from anywhere - workplace or otherwise. In these events in the past I have "owed" the person, writing a receipt and returning to them as soon as I have that all important change, or taken a card. Proud to so far have never been forced to refuse a sale.

I have had to give £10+ in £1 change before now.

I don't know about your company, but I've been told by staff who work for Arriva the Shires they are sent out without any float at all and have to make it themselves. So being owed is normal in these parts.

 

[cf111]

First Aberdeen are also exact fare.

 

[Mr Spock]

Can someone clarify here. I understood that:

-it was no longer compulsory to use the roadside TVMs, and that they are in fact being removed

-drivers are able to give change from the £2.40 flat cash fare.

Anyone clarify?

Its my understanding that you can now pay on all buses.

According to the TFL website if you want to pay with a £10, £20 or £50 notes you might be refused travel if the driver has insufficient change.

 

[Eng274]

First Scotland East on the east lothian side were exact fare only, and the retrofitted cash vaults weren't fixed down well, so they rattled like nothing on earth. something that Lothian's equivalents didn't seem to noticeably suffer.

 

[martybabes]

In parts of Italy, you buy your tickets from a shop and then have them validated when you get on the bus. The driver just drives.

 

[edwin_m]

Having used both NCT (exact fare) and Trent Barton (gives change) in Nottingham I'm not sure I believe the speed argument about exact fare. TB's drivers can extract change from the holder very quickly, probably quicker than the time take for some passengers to fumble around for an irritating amount such as the standard fare of £1.70.

 

[Butts]

First Scotland East on the east lothian side were exact fare only, and the retrofitted cash vaults weren't fixed down well, so they rattled like nothing on earth. something that Lothian's equivalents didn't seem to noticeably suffer.

First in Falkirk and Edinburgh used to give change when I used them- a lot of the Bus Operators ie Travel West Midlands used to have a maximum fare after 9.30 am wherever you were going so it was £1.50 in the hopper.

Back to Trains the guy was lucky to find a TVM that actually takes cash - from my experience outside major stations they are thin on the ground.

 

[deltic1989]

Having used both NCT (exact fare) and Trent Barton (gives change) in Nottingham I'm not sure I believe the speed argument about exact fare. TB's drivers can extract change from the holder very quickly, probably quicker than the time take for some passengers to fumble around for an irritating amount such as the standard fare of £1.70.

I think that part of NCT's argument for exact fares is driver safety.
Some of the areas that NCT serve late at night are areas that I wouldn't go into if I was driving a tank. It seems to me that having the cash locked away somewhere the driver can't get to it would act as a deterrent to some would be great bus robbers.
I have the 48 and L53 passing and stopping on my doorstep every 7 and 30 mins respectively but if I know I'm on a tight schedule and won't have time to pop to the shops for some change I will go to the end of the street and get on the 1, and offer the driver the smallest denomination I have, be it 2 £2, or a fiver. I have never had the driver roll his/her eyes or what not.

 

[jb]

Having used both NCT (exact fare) and Trent Barton (gives change) in Nottingham I'm not sure I believe the speed argument about exact fare. TB's drivers can extract change from the holder very quickly, probably quicker than the time take for some passengers to fumble around for an irritating amount such as the standard fare of £1.70.

Particularly annoying when you've been stood behind them in the queue for 15 minutes doing nothing, and then the fumbling only begins when they actually arrive at the driver's window... not even when the bus is approaching :roll:

Some of the areas that NCT serve late at night are areas that I wouldn't go into if I was driving a tank.

Newport Transport is one exact-fare operator mentioned above for which this exact premise applies.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

He does have a point regarding the change which, as can be seen above was not given in legal tender nor was the complainant given an option to accept it outside the definition.

Not sure if the TVM actually does have to give change, and it certainly doesn't have to be in "legal tender". Legal tender is only relevant with respect to an existing debt. As the payment here is before the journey, the TOC could insist on a specified payment method.

Change is a courtesy. (Some coin operated ticket vending machines will say "Exact Fare only" or "No Change given").

The onus is on the passenger to tender the correct fare.

 

[loiner91]

A way to solve it, carry a fanny pack

 

[jon0844]

I'm pretty sure there's no legal obligation to give change. Most car park machines don't, simply because of the clear security risk (so not just a greedy car park operator/council).

(Off topic) I do wish car park machines that 'allowed' you to overpay would adjust your time pro-rata though. Most rates are cleverly set so you'll probably overpay (e.g. £1.90 for 1 hour, or £3.10 etc) but in many cases you don't get any more time. That's a bit sneaky.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Not sure if the TVM actually does have to give change, and it certainly doesn't have to be in "legal tender". Legal tender is only relevant with respect to an existing debt. As the payment here is before the journey, the TOC could insist on a specified payment method.

Change is a courtesy. (Some coin operated ticket vending machines will say "Exact Fare only" or "No Change given").

The onus is on the passenger to tender the correct fare.

While all of that is technically true, if ToC's decided to not give change then the backlash from passengers would without a doubt lead to a reversal of that decision pretty sharpish (not to mention it would be just a bit greedy to decide that).

I don't particularly agree with bus operators doing it, but at least they have a decent reason (that giving change generally does delay bus services). ToC's do not have that reason to use.

 

[jon0844]

TOCs simply stop accepting cash, even though I am sure there might be times someone would gladly overpay a little bit just to get a ticket than have to deal with an RPI down the line.

Or, you have a TVM that issues some form of credit that can be used later. Perhaps a unique code that can be used to buy a ticket online, via another TVM or giving it to the ticket office (perhaps with a barcode that can be scanned to speed things up).

 

[90019]

Particularly annoying when you've been stood behind them in the queue for 15 minutes doing nothing, and then the fumbling only begins when they actually arrive at the driver's window... not even when the bus is approaching :roll:

It's even more annoying when what they finally pull out is a (usually well used and faded) bus pass.

 

[edwin_m]

Particularly annoying when you've been stood behind them in the queue for 15 minutes doing nothing, and then the fumbling only begins when they actually arrive at the driver's window... not even when the bus is approaching :roll:

That might of course be because people are concerned about showing their cash when they're standing on the street.

 

[dave55uk]

As mentioned above, Arriva (at least in the Shires area) do not issue us drivers (yes, I am one of them) with any float what-so-ever.

As the law stands : It is up to the customer to pay the exact fare. A bus driver, shop keeper or whoever is not legally bound to give change, nor can the customer demand it. Also, and something which is not widely known, is that if a customer gets on a bus (say) with a £20 for a £1.90 fare, what the customer is actually saying is "I am prepared to pay more than you are asking for". (All these points can be found on the web - try the Royal Mint website for starters - cannot provide links now as I'm off to bed).

 

[johnnychips]

Utter tosh

Have you any authority for that quite abrupt rebuttal?

I would have thought that not being willing or to be able to give change may be poor customer service or bad for business, but in the end if it is made clear that only the exact money or overpayment is acceptable, it is up to the consumer to take it or leave it.

Note the bit in bold.

 

[Anvil1984]

From the Royal Mint website regarding Legal Tender

Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded

 

[martybabes]

OK then, then let me put it another way.

As a matter of law only, a contract is entered into at the point of sale when all the necessary terms have been agreed. In layman's terms, it means that the goods or services are (agreed to be) delivered in exchange for a sum of money. The analogy was drawn with a shop-keeper, and to take that a little further and expand upon it, the customer offers to buy some goods to which the shopkeeper agrees; the cost is also agreed and title to the goods is then transferred. Payment can be in legal tender (or is some other form agreed between the contracting parties - buttons, washers, sheep's heads, whatever). The normal course of business transactions carried out in this country, today, and accepted by all concerned, is that if more money is given at the point of sale, there is an implied condition to the contract that change will be given. This requirement can be excluded from the terms of the contract if there exists a notice saying (something like) "EXACT FARE ONLY" and that the notice is clearly visible to the contracting parties (and is, therefore, incorporated into the terms of the contract).

To address a specific point made earlier, and purported to be something that is not widely known, is that "if a customer gets on a bus (say) with a £20 for a £1.90 fare, what the customer is actually saying is "I am prepared to pay more than you are asking for."" I am sorry to have to say, again, but perhaps a little more diplomatically this time for fear of offending any sensitive readers, that this is absolute nonsense. Whoever heard of anyone going shopping and there being no chance whatsoever of getting change from any higher amount tendered? Because of the standard, well practised and fully understood terms of purchase and sales transactions, millions of which are carried out each hour of every day, it is a common form of trading that change will be given, so it simply does not stack up to say (with implied legal authority!) that "I am prepared to pay more."

The Royal Mint website does indeed carry information of what is legal tender, and the amounts of each denomination that can be passed off as legal tender. However, the parties to a contract can waive that restriction, and it is self evident that they do often. What the RM website doesn't do is give an exposition on what the law is in relation to sales and purchases contracts. That is for the legislature and the courts.

Car parking machines that state "NO CHANGE GIVEN" or other machines that state "EXACT FARE ONLY" are perfectly legal because they impose an additional contractual term before the point of sale. It is still open to the customer/purchaser to decline to be a party to the contract as he is not bound at that preliminary stage to the transaction. If he then chooses to offer more money, he is deemed to have accepted the contractual term by his conduct, and he is therefore bound by the terms (and cannot later whine about it or have any legal redress (assuming the reasonableness test in UCTA is not offended - other lawyers will know what I mean here)).

Finally, I have seen many, many times during my short association with this site that railway people can be quite dismissive of "facts" and "opinions" put forward by members of this forum who are not in the industry. Likewise, I have seen many examples of legal opinions being given by those who, seemingly, know someone whose brother's mate knows a lawyer but are, themselves not qualified and/or are learned in the law. I am sorry if I have offended anyone by what I have said (or, earlier, in the manner of what I said), but it would be good not to judge the messenger simply by the message that he gives. Whatever my personal views are of the law, the law is what it is whether you or I like it or not.