Access campaigners lose Arriva fight

[Antman]

Since there is no realistic way to force a standee off the bus, the wheelchair user will have to wait for the next bus officially I imagine.

In reality, I would imagine the extra person being carried. It is not as if one person is going to make a massive difference.

Yes, any capacity is theoretical, its just how many passengers can squeeze on board.

 

[soil]

FirstGroup have just had a ruling go the opposite way:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-24214346

 

[Volvodart]

The link is for the Arriva case, NOT First.

 

[soil]

The link is for the Arriva case, NOT First.

sorry, edited now

 

[duncanp]

I sympathise with the bus drivers to a certain extent on this one.

You can change the rules so that they have to ask someone to move if they are blocking the wheelchair space and it is required by a wheelchair user.

But what should they do if the person refuses to move. Refuse to move the bus any further, or call the police, or make the wheelchair user wait for the next bus?

To some extent it would depend on time of day/weather/frequency of the bus service concerned/availability of other bus routes.

Perhaps the bus driver could radio control and let them know that there is a wheelchair user at stop X who needs to get to Y.

Other than that, I can only see this being resolved by making it an offence to refuse to vacate the wheelchair space when requested to do so.

 

[WSW]

As the father of a 42 year old son who must sit in his wheelchair whilst travelling, the whole idea of using buses is simply too fraught with potential problems so we simply don't bother, even with a free bus pass.

Steve

 

[soil]

Other than that, I can only see this being resolved by making it an offence to refuse to vacate the wheelchair space when requested to do so.

But the equalities legislation doesn't make mention of wheelchairs. The legislation is designed to give rights to disabled people. A mother with a pushchair might be, in law, considered disabled.

So you can't really turf people out.

Also the law is aimed at businesses, not individuals.

The business is required to have a policy that enables disabled people to travel. Telling able-bodied people to vacate the space when required is as far as they need to go.

 

[richw]

I have 2 small children, the eldest was stopped from using the pushchair as soon as she was big enough to walk. the baby needs a pushchair but we have a cheap small one and it does the job. I couldn't justify the price tags some pushchairs cost when a child is in it for 2 years at most.

My personal gripe is kids who are big enough to walk being put in a stroller pushchair as a convenience for a parent. My eldest was stopped using the pushchair at 21 months, because she could walk and secondly because she had a new baby sister who needed the pushchair!

 

[robertclark125]

Can I add another view on this? Disabled campaigners are arguing that they're being discriminated against. But, if a person able bodied is already sitting in the tip up seats, and are being asked to move, that may well be understandable. But, if the bus has the space vacant, and the driver refuses to let able bodied passengers on, in case there's the possibility of a disabled passenger en route, then isn't that discriminating against able bodied people/

I personally think the only idea solution, in the end, may be to do what Stagecoach east Scotland do with their City Connect express network, namely, pre booking.

 

[duncanp]

Didn't Lothian Buses in Edinburgh try to ban certain types of buggies, in order to ensure that there was sufficient space for a wheelchair user if required?

Then of course there was an outcry from Mumsnet and other such groups who then argued that they were being "...discriminated against...."

Just shows what a legal minefield the bus companies are up against.

 

[34D]

As the father of a 42 year old son who must sit in his wheelchair whilst travelling, the whole idea of using buses is simply too fraught with potential problems so we simply don't bother, even with a free bus pass.

Steve

Really? As someone who drives buses (part time, for an independent, in a 'nice' part of the world, all our staff are very happy to ensure that our wheelchair (and other disabled) passengers get looked after properly.

 

[jon0844]

Many able bodied people are left behind when a bus is full.

Personally, I can't imagine that anyone on a bus would refuse to move for a wheelchair user wanting to board - with the following exceptions:

1) There's already another wheelchair user on the bus. In this case, if there's no more room, then the wheelchair user trying to board would have to wait - just like anyone else.

2) If the bus is so full that people couldn't move away to let the wheelchair user on, thus having to get off the bus and wait for the next one, I'd say the wheelchair user would then have to wait.

3) If there are buggies in the wheelchair area, they should be asked to fold them up (and there should be signs to that effect on the bus) and move. If they don't comply, they could be asked to leave. However, beyond that I'm not sure what a driver could actually do.

I'm sure most wheelchair users are quite understanding, especially when a bus might be rammed, and would wait like anyone else (or call for further assistance).

I can well believe that the bigger problems would come from people with buggies, as in every case of an argument on a bus or train it has been with a buggy, not a wheelchair. That includes one mother who turfed out two elderly people on tip up seats on a FCC service by saying they were blocking the buggy area (and pointing to the wheelchair sticker).

When we travel with my son in a buggy, it's never at the expense of others. He's travelling for free, so he won't take a seat if it's busy. The buggy will be folded, or if there's nowhere to put the folded buggy, we stay with him in the vestibule and move the buggy away from the doors at each stop.

To demand others move away is downright rude, but I've seen it countless times.

 

[WSW]

Really? As someone who drives buses (part time, for an independent, in a 'nice' part of the world, all our staff are very happy to ensure that our wheelchair (and other disabled) passengers get looked after properly.

Yep, really. Simple fact of life. Round here, most people waiting at the bus stop get to board a bus, but it is not always the case for us, so the service (despite the best intentions) simply is not suitable. Give all wheelchair users the same travel opportunities as everyone else (we know that is unrealistic and is not going to happen) and maybe we'll become bus users.

Steve

 

[34D]

Yep, really. Simple fact of life. Round here, most people waiting at the bus stop get to board a bus, but it is not always the case for us, so the service (despite the best intentions) simply is not suitable. Give all wheelchair users the same travel opportunities as everyone else (we know that is unrealistic and is not going to happen) and maybe we'll become bus users.

Steve

Steve, I'm curious to understand more. Whereabouts in the country do you live?

Are the issues just that the bus is sometimes busy? Or that sometimes a step entry bus turns up? Feel welcome to PM me if you wish.

 

[RPI]

Pushchairs should be folded down if a wheelchair user needs to use the space.

I disagree, a young baby is almost as confined to their pram so much as a wheelchair user, admittedly there are a lot of parents who insist on pushing toddlers around in pushchairs and these people don't have any more right than a wheelchair.

 

[Antman]

As the father of a 42 year old son who must sit in his wheelchair whilst travelling, the whole idea of using buses is simply too fraught with potential problems so we simply don't bother, even with a free bus pass.

Steve

Same for me. My late father was confined to a wheelchair for the last few years of his life. We took him out on a bus once and it was an absolute nightmare, we never attempted it again and would rather pay for a taxi in which his wheelchair could be accomodated
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really? As someone who drives buses (part time, for an independent, in a 'nice' part of the world, all our staff are very happy to ensure that our wheelchair (and other disabled) passengers get looked after properly.

So what is your secret? What happens if somebody in a wheelchair wants to get on but the wheelchair bay is full of buggies or another wheelchair?

 

[455driver]

So what is your secret? What happens if somebody in a wheelchair wants to get on but the wheelchair bay is full of buggies or another wheelchair?

Handbrake on, engine off, read paper until somebody conceded defeat was how I did it but that was several years ago when flat floor buses where new and most services were still formed of step entrance buses.
Most people also used sensible sized pushchairs and wheelchairs rather than the 4x4 sized things everyone seems to use now.

 

[cjp]

I disagree, a young baby is almost as confined to their pram so much as a wheelchair user, admittedly there are a lot of parents who insist on pushing toddlers around in pushchairs and these people don't have any more right than a wheelchair.

I think you are wrong.
A baby can be and is taken out of their pram for all sorts of reasons eg to feed them. Many wheelchair people are stuck in their wheel chair until they arrive at their destination, not all but many are stuck. For those that have some mobility on their legs attempting to transfer from a wheelchair, fold it and get to a seat on a swaying bus for a short journey would, I imagine, be not worthwhile. A parent can however always pick up their child.
Why not use a sling rather than an a buggy?

On a train , by analogy, if as a cyclist I am in the cycle/disabled area I will always move for a wheelchair - no question. I will not get off but I will move.

I do note how more and more people make a beeline on a Chiltern train for the disabled/ cycle area as place with more room for their luggage/ buggy/laptop and will not offer to move for a bicycle / cyclist.
A sign of our self-centred times

 

[bnm]

An interesting one this. You have to feel sorry for the bus driver who was caught in the middle of this situation.

How can bus drivers enforce the Equality Act when an obstinate pushchair user refuses to move? I'd be interested to hear from any bus drivers out there and what they would've done.

That said, I can't quite fathom why First Group were 'disappointed' by the ruling. It seems to be a fairly straightforward breach of the Equality Act 2010.

From the BBC:

Doug Paulley wins First Bus discrimination ruling

A disabled man has won a legal ruling against a bus company over its wheelchair policy.

Doug Paulley from Wetherby, West Yorkshire, took First Bus Group to court after he was told he could not get on a bus because a pushchair user refused to give up the space.

A judge at Leeds County Court ruled the "first come first served" policy was unlawful discrimination in breach of the Equality Act 2010.

First said it was "disappointed".

Mr Paulley, 35, told BBC Look North: "Somebody with a pushchair in the wheelchair space refused to move when asked by the driver, because their baby was asleep in the pushchair and they didn't want to wake the baby up.

"So I was unable to get on the bus, I was told to get off the bus and wait for the next one. Having approached them directly in various other ways, this seemed the only way to force them to take the issue seriously and to make adjustments so wheelchair users can reliably take the bus."

'Breakthrough'

First's website states: "Wheelchair users have priority use of the wheelchair space", but adds that "the driver has no power to compel passengers to move in this way and is reliant upon the goodwill of the passengers concerned" and "if a fellow passenger refuses to move [the wheelchair user] will need to wait for the next bus".

Mr Paulley's lawyer Chris Fry from Unity Law said his client was awarded £5,500 in compensation and the company had been given six months to change its policy.

"This is a breakthrough. There's no point having an accessible bus if the service itself is inaccessible," Mr Fry said.

In a statement, First Bus Group said it would "take time to consider the findings".

It added: "At First we do recognise how important it is that bus services are accessible to all and our drivers across the country are trained to act in accordance with the law in this area."

Disability campaigner Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson said: "For millions of disabled people looking to travel to work, the shops or hospital visits public transport is our lifeline.

"The decision in Doug's case will drive the changes that are needed to make public transport accessible for all disabled users."

 

[Deerfold]

That said, I can't quite fathom why First Group were 'disappointed' by the ruling. It seems to be a fairly straightforward breach of the Equality Act 2010.

I'm guessing they're disappointed because it's costing them £5000 + costs and it's really not clear what they can do to change things. Short of sitting still if someone refuses to move which risks antagonising other passengers.

London buses has just created a new training film which all 27,000 drivers will watch in a session where they'll discuss how they would have handled various situations and how their behaviour affects passengers, especially those with mobility problems (including wheelchair users).

They've also run an advertising comapaign encouraging people to move when a wheelchair requires the space and there's an automated announcement asking people to move.

However they still can't force someone to move out of it.

 

[david16]

I would imagine airport trains need less luggage space now, as Low cost airlines levy hefty fees on checked luggage, which a generation ago was universally free.

Set an increased fare for pram/pushchair users using the disabled space and don't intend to fold their prams and pushchairs.

 

[Deerfold]

Set an increased fare for pram/pushchair users using the disabled space and don't intend to fold their prams and pushchairs.

And put them off bus travel when there is no wheelchair user travelling?
And how can you tell if they intend to fold things?

If the space is not needed for a wheelchair it can be very handy for those with prams or luggage (I use it myself when I have a suitcase - but I'm always prepared to move if need be).

 

[34D]

So what is your secret? What happens if somebody in a wheelchair wants to get on but the wheelchair bay is full of buggies or another wheelchair?

I've had two wheelchairs on before, on a bus with a certification for only one (the second space was a pram space, but I commandeered it, rightly or wrongly).

And well, the buses I drive are in nice areas, and passengers are usually of a social class that has respect for others.

However, I wouldn't hesitate to instruct a pram (or a tip-up-seated passenger) from the wheelchair space if there was some reluctance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Handbrake on, engine off, read paper until somebody conceded defeat was how I did it but that was several years ago when flat floor buses where new and most services were still formed of step entrance buses.
Most people also used sensible sized pushchairs and wheelchairs rather than the 4x4 sized things everyone seems to use now.

Noooo, engine off is reserved for the naughty schoolkids on an afternoon! Not that I deal with them often, thankfully

 

[speedy_sticks]

As an electric wheelchair user, I feel more qualified than most on here to comment or this.

Firstly on First, I have absolutely no sympathy with them. they will swap buses in their fleet, either by interfleet or with buses from one of their other depots in the UK. They would do this if a depot needed to standardise on a certain type of bus or if there was a bus war in a area, or that route needed more compacity. So why couldn't they either retrofit their buses or brought in buses that had only one wheelchair bay when they knew that their was a residential care home which had a number of wheelchair users and also considering that the gentlemen concerned was a regular user of the route that run roughly every hour!?

So when did you folks last use a wheelchair on a bus? I have always felt that some staff and management should use a wheelchair on a bus to see what it was like.

I try to be as independent as I can. So travel on my own, most of the time. When did you last get denied entry to a bus more than twice in a row?

Being left at a bus stop is very embarrassing.

If I was in my manual wheelchair, I would fold up my chair if needed.

Pram users need to be educated as to what types of prams are best for the buses. Also electric wheelchair users need to be more choosey when selecting their electronic wheelchair when knowing that they would be travelling with it on the buses.

Depending on the size of the wheelchair bay, it's perfectly possible for a pram to fit in front of the wheelchair.

If drivers and unions weren't so greedy, perhaps conductors would still be able to ride the buses. I mean the conductors could help the mums to fold the buses and help with fare collecting?

We have had big issues with our local big company with ramp reliability, now they are blaming it on the pavements, basically saying that they have brought the buses without knowing if the wheelchair ramps would work along the route. Try before you buy? The bus industry doesn't help themselves.

 

[Deerfold]

If drivers and unions weren't so greedy, perhaps conductors would still be able to ride the buses. I mean the conductors could help the mums to fold the buses and help with fare collecting?

I'm not sure what a lack of conductors has to do with greedy drivers and unions - rather more down to cost cutting by operators - Conductors these days are fairly unusual around the world.

In most parts of the country bus drivers are not particularly well paid.