Access campaigners lose Arriva fight

[Tomonthetrain]

Kicking a mother and baby off a bus would make you really popular in the press.

It would be, as Sir Humprey would say, Courageous

 

[Deerfold]

Kick them off the bus.

Physically?

I'd doubt any bus company would advocate that to their staff whatever their publicity might say.

And whilst a police officer might be able to help the odds on one being around are low and one coming out specifically even lower.

 

[transmanche]

Physically?

That's a question you'd need to pose to Arriva...

 

[sheff1]

It isn't a level playing field though. Wheelchair users need to use a wheelchair to get around and therefore they should have priority for the designated area because this is the only place they can be accommodated on the bus. They can't just stand up and fold their wheelchair down.

A misleading simplification. Some people in wheelchairs can stand up and walk for short distances. Some wheelchairs can be folded (more likely by a companion than the disabled person themselves, I accept, but of course a buggy would not be folded by the occupant !).

 

[BestWestern]

Oh dear oh dear!!

Firstly, it should be noted that accessible vehicles are a major reason that somebody with a pushchair may actively choose to use a bus rather than an alternative means, i.e. their car. If it is possible to take a bus and have a good chance of not having to faff around folding down a buggy, it becomes an easier option than taking the car in many cases - there are precious few scenarios where a bus is considered to be a preferred option, and so the benefits of low floors for all should be valued.

Whilst the driving force behind provision of low floor vehicles is disability law, the reality in most places is that for every wheelchair user who boards a bus there will be 500 people with pushchairs, and so the 'wheelchair space' is, in reality, general purpose and certainly not just beneficial purely to those using wheelchairs. It is utterly ridiculous to suggest that everybody with a pushchair should be required to fold it up when there is, on many/most routes, near zero chance of there being a requirement for a wheelchair user to use the space during the journey.

As for the powers of the bus driver, he has no right to remove a person from his bus any more than a Guard has a right to remove somebody from his train. He can ask, and a passenger can quite easily refuse if they so wish. He then has the option of escalating the matter further by requesting appropriate assistance, but may well decide that is not the most sensible option. I would suggest that most people are likely to be too ashamed to refuse to fold up a pushchair for somebody who is disabled, but of course there are some pond life out there and they sometimes use buses. If faced with the situation, my decision would probably have been to simply inform control and carry on, and let somebody more senior make a decision on whether to send some form of alternative transport or allow the intending passenger to take their chances on the next bus.

If indeed this was simply a 'test case' as stated in an earlier post, then I would agree it is probably a good thing that it failed. Equal rights for minorities is a very positive thing, but elevating those rights above those of the majority is not equal.

 

[transmanche]

As an aside; the TfL Conditions of carriage make things clear what the rules are on their services:

13. Access and carriage of passengers in wheelchairs and mobility scooters

Wheelchair and mobility scooter users have priority over everyone else for the use of the wheelchair space, since this is the only space in which they can travel safely. If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board, and the wheelchair space is occupied by standing passengers or buggies, standing passengers will be asked by the driver to make room if possible, and buggy users will be asked to fold them and put them in the luggage space or keep them by their side.

You will only be refused entry when it is absolutely necessary, but no-one already travelling will be asked to get off the bus.

14. Access and carriage of passengers with buggies

Wheelchair and mobility scooter users have priority over everyone else for the use of the wheelchair space. You may therefore be asked to fold up your buggy to allow wheelchair or mobility scooter users to use the wheelchair space. See clause 13.3.3 for further details. You will not be asked to get off the bus to make space for other passengers.

 

[34D]

Could be, but isn't.
Even if it were, it would also apply to the person with the buggy who is already travelling on the bus, not just to the person in a wheelchair who wishes to travel on that bus.


Speaking as a driver (though not for Arriva), I can only request that a buggy is folded to allow someone in a wheelchair to travel. If the person refuses, then the wheelchair user will have to wait for another bus
I am not allowed to kick someone with a buggy off the bus to let a wheelchair on, and there is no argument over that.

At the company I drive for, I have instructed (politely) for passengers and buggies in the wheelchair area to vacate it. If a passenger refused to move, I would have the backing of the company to insist (though such a circumstance has never arisen for me, yet).

 

[90019]

At the company I drive for, I have instructed (politely) for passengers and buggies in the wheelchair area to vacate it. If a passenger refused to move, I would have the backing of the company to insist (though such a circumstance has never arisen for me, yet).

We've been told quite firmly that we are only allowed to ask people to move, depite our conditions of carriage saying that the space must be vacated for a wheelchair.
I've yet to have any bother with this, as often people will move without being asked as they can see what's happening, but I'm aware that there a few who will refuse to move for a wheelchair.

 

[ivanhoe]

Firstly, I think the ruling is one for common sense. Secondly, in a civilised world, these issues would be solved by passengers themselves with a bit of self policing without the intervention of the driver who has 101 other things to be concerned with like driving and fare collection and our overall safety.

It is very sad nowadays that organisations are happy to spend other people's monies on the premise that they are campaigning . Surely meetings with bus companies to discuss issues is far better than feeding the vultures of our legal system.

 

[Antman]

I've seen this situation myself on a London bus, wheelchair user wanted to board but couldn't because of buggies, both buggy users said they could not fold them, sleeping babies and shopping, so wheelchair user was left behind, there was no other option.

This whole thing is flawed, what if a wheelchair user wants to board an irregular service, hourly or less, and the bay is occupied by buggies or another wheelchair?

There is no solution

 

[BestWestern]

I've seen this situation myself on a London bus, wheelchair user wanted to board but couldn't because of buggies, both buggy users said they could not fold them, sleeping babies and shopping, so wheelchair user was left behind, there was no other option.

This whole thing is flawed, what if a wheelchair user wants to board an irregular service, hourly or less, and the bay is occupied by buggies or another wheelchair?

There is no solution

There is always the option of the duty Controller requesting a taxi, if it's genuinely not possible to get them onto a bus within a reasonable time. That's what happens on the railway if somebody in a wheelchair is unable to alight at their desired station for example.

My personal view is that demanding all buses be low floor is rather floored in general. Low floor buses are phenomenally expensive to buy, are enormously heavy and have the fuel economy of a cross channel ferry. Running large fleets of them is beginning to cause the operators real concerns over where they are supposed to find room to make a profit, and it isn't hard to see why. Brian Suiter must cry into his hanky when he thinks back to the good old days of Merc minibuses and step entrance Darts, and bulletproof Olympians and B10Ms that would last forever if it wasn't for the EU. There's no doubting that low floors have helped get many people on buses who wouldn't have done otherwise, but the cost of the upcoming blanket enforcement is just too great. Operators could have saved a fortune if they'd been allowed to have a few wheelchair-accessible taxis or similar available on a demand responsive basis, and make their own commercial decisions on where to use expensive low floors. That would almost certainly have offered a better service to the wheelchair users too.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Could be, but isn't.
Even if it were, it would also apply to the person with the buggy who is already travelling on the bus, not just to the person in a wheelchair who wishes to travel on that bus.


Speaking as a driver (though not for Arriva), I can only request that a buggy is folded to allow someone in a wheelchair to travel. If the person refuses, then the wheelchair user will have to wait for another bus
I am not allowed to kick someone with a buggy off the bus to let a wheelchair on, and there is no argument over that.

and speeking as an almost daily user of your opperater its good to hear the rules for same operater being applied correctly. Myself andthe Mrs are both visualy impaired and she also has a dog whilst I use a white stick. There have been 2 or 3 occassions when the same driver on a decker route has turfed us plus guide dog out of the area in question in a very forcefull way and on each occasion its been for a buggy. Had it been a wheelchair we would not have minded. As it was the dog was forced to sit in the isle and be stood on every time a passenger wanted on or oef.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
also worth noting that the 3rd time this happened an inspecter boarded part way through our journey and threw us off with a lecture to us about safe travel with the dog despite us explaining the situation and also explaining that we had offered to take the next bus in the first place! Ultimately the driver was pulled up about it and now refuses me travel all together. My better half meanwhile has had a hard time from guide dogs who claimed she was traveling irrisponsibly. Now whats that about disabled geogle lacking in confidence when using public transport? Is it any wonder that most of my disabled friends go everywhere by taxi?

For what its worth, I would always give up the space for a wheelchair and think that theres a huge range in rules and regs across different opperaters. From the POV of having confidence about using public services I agree with the guys from Darlingtons court action but to have not checked Arivas conditions first was more than a little daft
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and it shows disabled foalk in a bad, attention seeking light too

 

[robertclark125]

What if the bus is full, and with standing passengers, and a wheelchair user wants to get on, but by doing so, the standing capacity would then be exceeded? If you look on some buses, it says the standing capacity for no wheelchairs, and then the capacity with wheelchairs.

 

[90019]

What if the bus is full, and with standing passengers, and a wheelchair user wants to get on, but by doing so, the standing capacity would then be exceeded? If you look on some buses, it says the standing capacity for no wheelchairs, and then the capacity with wheelchairs.

If the bus is full, then no one else can get on, it doesn't matter whether they're in a wheelchair or not.
Where the bus is almost full and taking on a wheelchair would exceed the capacity, then they won't be able to travel on that particular bus. With the buses I drive, having a nearly full bus often means I can't get a wheelchair on as there will be people standing almost right up to the front of the bus, making getting to the wheelchair space impossible without a load of people getting off the bus first, and then getting back of after.
It's a similar story with buggies - a nearly full bus means there isn't the space for them to travel unless it's folded.

If my bus has a full standing load then it gets called in to control and I don't stop again until someone wants off. When I do stop it's then one on, one off until enough people are off that I'm clearing bus stops again.

 

[Blindtraveler]

again as per the rules for such situations and so it should be.

 

[bb21]

When a bus is full, then that is it. No one, whether in a wheelchair or not, should be allowed to get on the bus. No one gets preferential treatment.

If the bus is not full but there are more passengers waiting at the bus stop than the available space onboard, I am of the opinion that people in a wheelchair should get priority in boarding. Firstly that makes it easier for them to move around into the designated space, and secondly it shows the civil side of society where we look after the vulnerable by making travel easier for them. It is far easier for an able-bodied passenger to wait for the next bus.

 

[soil]

Wheelchair spaces on buses are effectively pushchair spaces.

Wheelchair users are so heavily outnumbered by parents pushchairs that kicking the pushchairs off (if they cannot or will not fold it) is balanced and reasonable policy.

Here are some stories regarding this:

http://www.islingtontribune.com/new...ng-wait-holloway-bus-will-take-her-wheelchair
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jul/10/fighting-right-travel-buses
http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.u...top-grinning/story-17853150-detail/story.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11313311
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/buggies-on-buses-must-move-for-wheelchairs-8339677.html

Having a small child is not a disability, it is a temporary inconvenience, and parents have choices in terms of their child's transport (not getting a pushchair the size of Uranus would be a start, if you regularly use public transport), whereas disability is in most cases permanent and whereas children can typically be carried or sat on a chair, this will not be an option for people in wheelchairs.

Whereas wheelchair users face a constant lottery of even being able to use a bus, train, or whatever, such that they really cannot be sure they will even be able to board, the same is not remotely true for those who make the choice to clog up public transport with pushchairs - I cannot recall ever facing any significant delay as a result of having my child in a pushchair.

 

[talltim]

What about parents in wheelchairs with children in pushchairs?

 

[Qwerty133]

When a bus is full, then that is it. No one, whether in a wheelchair or not, should be allowed to get on the bus. No one gets preferential treatment.

If the bus is not full but there are more passengers waiting at the bus stop than the available space onboard, I am of the opinion that people in a wheelchair should get priority in boarding. Firstly that makes it easier for them to move around into the designated space, and secondly it shows the civil side of society where we look after the vulnerable by making travel easier for them. It is far easier for an able-bodied passenger to wait for the next bus.

I would have to disagree here as its a lot safer for a wheelchair user and their carer to be left at a stop than a lone child/teenager, pensioner or female especially at night.

 

[Deerfold]

Wheelchair users are so heavily outnumbered by parents pushchairs that kicking the pushchairs off (if they cannot or will not fold it) is balanced and reasonable policy.

Which still doesn't answer how that is actually enforced. Most transport operators state that the space is for wheelchairs as a priority and buggies if there's room but it's hard to make someone move.

Having said that I was on a London bus in 2005 which a wheelchair user wanted to board.

The driver politely asked a buggy owner to fold her buggy. She ignored him. Then he asked more forcefully, saying that if she didn't want to fold it he'd issue her with a ticket she could use on the next bus (the route ran every 6 minutes). When she continued to ignore him he said he was quite happy to wait where he was until she either folded her buggy or got off. After a couple of minutes she stormed off the bus.

 

[tbtc]

not getting a pushchair the size of Uranus would be a start, if you regularly use public transport

The reality is that pushchairs are generally a bit bigger than they were a generation ago (just like many wheelchairs seem to be a bit bulkier nowadays).

Public transport can either try to accommodate people or not - complaining about passengers doesn't help anything though. Similarly you could say that airport trains don't need so much luggage space as everyone managed perfectly well with a small suitcase a generation ago - but we have to deal with reality.

 

[Deerfold]

I would have to disagree here as its a lot safer for a wheelchair user and their carer to be left at a stop than a lone child/teenager, pensioner or female especially at night.

That presupposes the wheelchair used is not travelling alone.

Even if not, do you have any figures to back that assertion up?

Certainly I'm led to believe statistics show lone males are more likely to be attacked than lone females - though I'm not saying that means you should try and abandon anyone.

 

[Qwerty133]

That presupposes the wheelchair used is not travelling alone.

Even if not, do you have any figures to back that assertion up?

Certainly I'm led to believe statistics show lone males are more likely to be attacked than lone females - though I'm not saying that means you should try and abandon anyone.

If that's the case it's shows how fictitious our citizenship lessons are.

 

[soil]

The reality is that pushchairs are generally a bit bigger than they were a generation ago (just like many wheelchairs seem to be a bit bulkier nowadays).

Public transport can either try to accommodate people or not - complaining about passengers doesn't help anything though. Similarly you could say that airport trains don't need so much luggage space as everyone managed perfectly well with a small suitcase a generation ago - but we have to deal with reality.

I would imagine airport trains need less luggage space now, as Low cost airlines levy hefty fees on checked luggage, which a generation ago was universally free.

 

[robertclark125]

What about lines that serve airports, but aren't on a dedicated shuttle, such as the Piccadilly Line of LUL, or the Tyne and Wear Metro?

 

[bb21]

I would have to disagree here as its a lot safer for a wheelchair user and their carer to be left at a stop than a lone child/teenager, pensioner or female especially at night.

Of course in reality, no one should be left behind if possible, and if it is night-time, it is highly unlikely that a bus would be full, especially outside London. If it is only one person being left behind, I am sure that some space can be found on the bus to accommodate him/her, especially at night.

Able-bodied passengers when left behind have many other options if they do not wish to wait for the next bus. Wheelchair users might not. I don't agree that it is a good enough argument to not give wheelchair users priority.

The reality is that pushchairs are generally a bit bigger than they were a generation ago (just like many wheelchairs seem to be a bit bulkier nowadays).

Public transport can either try to accommodate people or not - complaining about passengers doesn't help anything though. Similarly you could say that airport trains don't need so much luggage space as everyone managed perfectly well with a small suitcase a generation ago - but we have to deal with reality.

They probably are generally a bit bigger, however sometimes it is a lifestyle choice some parents make. The size of those monstrosities I sometimes see being pushed around in the streets can be quite shocking. Do some parents seriously need a pram twice the size they were 20 years ago to push a child around?

Of course transport companies should accommodate passenger needs whenever possible, nevertheless there is a limit. If the size of prams carries on increasing, they won't be able to fit down the gangway on a bus before long.

 

[A0]

The reality is that pushchairs are generally a bit bigger than they were a generation ago (just like many wheelchairs seem to be a bit bulkier nowadays).

Nonsense - take a look at items like the Silver Cross prams of yesteryear - not only were they far bigger, they simply didn't fold flat.

The only 'small' pushchair of recent times was the Mclaren 'stroller' - but the problem with that is you cannot put a very small child in it. It's fine once the child is a toddler, but not a baby.

Public transport can either try to accommodate people or not - complaining about passengers doesn't help anything though. Similarly you could say that airport trains don't need so much luggage space as everyone managed perfectly well with a small suitcase a generation ago - but we have to deal with reality.

It's the age old problem of supply and demand. In most cities and even large towns, the frequency of the routes means it isn't such a hardship if you can't get on the first bus which arrives - not true in rural areas. And I think that was part of the reason these campaigners lost their case against Arriva.

 

[34D]

What if the bus is full, and with standing passengers, and a wheelchair user wants to get on, but by doing so, the standing capacity would then be exceeded? If you look on some buses, it says the standing capacity for no wheelchairs, and then the capacity with wheelchairs.

Good point. What Robert is getting at is that the capacity of a bus may be written as:
42 seated 20 standing
Or
39 seated 1 wheelchair 18 standing.

The situation he is describing is if the bus has 40 seated passengers and 18 standees on board, and a wheelchair (and a separate able bodied passenger) are waiting.

This is a good question.

 

[bb21]

Since there is no realistic way to force a standee off the bus, the wheelchair user will have to wait for the next bus officially I imagine.

In reality, I would imagine the extra person being carried. It is not as if one person is going to make a massive difference.

 

[34D]

Since there is no realistic way to force a standee off the bus, the wheelchair user will have to wait for the next bus officially I imagine.

In reality, I would imagine the extra person being carried. It is not as if one person is going to make a massive difference.

Agree fully