Access campaigners lose Arriva fight

[robertclark125]

If Moderators wish to move this thread elsewhere, please do so.

Two disabled people who tried to sue Arriva North east, after they couldn't use the bus, as a pushchair was in the space, have lost their case. full details in the link

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=7649&categoryid=0

Access campaigners lose Arriva fight

Arriva North East did not break the law when two wheelchair passengers were unable to board one of its buses in Darlington. Jane Elliott and Andrew Ward had claimed that Arriva's policy of “first come first served” for the wheelchair spaces in its buses was a breach of the Equality Act, while Arriva argued that the Act did not apply because its duties were set out in public transport regulations.

Judge Peter Bowers at Middlesbrough County Court ruled that the company was subject to the Equality Act, but had not breached it. He noted that on a route with frequent services Elliott had not experienced “substantial disadvantage” by not being allowed on the first bus to come because there was a pushchair in the wheelchair space. Elliott is seeking leave to appeal against the judgement in the High Court.

Gordon Pybus, chairman of the Darlington Association on Disability, says the ruling makes “a mockery” of government legislation on accessibility: “What is the point in making sure that every single bus has wheelchair spaces if the bus companies are under no obligation by law to make sure that those spaces are reserved for wheelchairs, not for buggies and prams?

“We have got to give disabled people and wheelchair users more confidence about using public transport. But if you are a wheelchair user and you know there is only one space allocated for you, and if that space is taken by someone else and there’s nothing the driver will do about that, how confident are you going to be about taking the bus? Not at all.”

Nigel Featham, managing director of Arriva North East, says: "We welcome the judgement but were disappointed that the matter went to court as we are always open and willing to discuss issues affecting people with disabilities to help make public transport even more accessible wherever possible."

The one thing that comes out of this for me is, disabled people are arguing that they need confidence to use public transport, knowing a wheelchair space isnt going to be occupied by a pushchair or other user. What if that space had already been occupied by a wheelchair, would they sue then? And also, the spaces are there for anyone to use, to bar some people from them is surely discrimination as well?

 

[telstarbox]

Pushchairs should be folded down if a wheelchair user needs to use the space.

 

[gnolife]

If Moderators wish to move this thread elsewhere, please do so.

Two disabled people who tried to sue Arriva North east, after they couldn't use the bus, as a pushchair was in the space, have lost their case. full details in the link

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=7649&categoryid=0

The one thing that comes out of this for me is, disabled people are arguing that they need confidence to use public transport, knowing a wheelchair space isnt going to be occupied by a pushchair or other user. What if that space had already been occupied by a wheelchair, would they sue then? And also, the spaces are there for anyone to use, to bar some people from them is surely discrimination as well?

I know that round here, most companies have notices to the effect of ' buggies must be folded if the wheelchair space is neesed for a wheelchair user. Also, two disabled people would have had some problems, given that a lot of buses only have one disabled space (assuming that they are both wheelchair bound, which seems too be being implied by the article)

 

[Shrimper]

I think it could have set a worrying precedent of they had won - whilst in many cases prams can be folded (though many parents don't seem aware of this) this shouldn't in my opinion mean that they must be. And would it therefore mean that a mother with a child should be expected to wait for the next bus? What about a disabled person without a wheelchair requiring the space - blind people with a dog, or someone with a cast on a leg requiring a little extra space.

Or if a bus is full, would we as drivers be expected to find volunteers to wait for the next bus if a wheelchair user wished to board? What if no-one volunteered, would we be expected to throw people off because the space they are standing in is designated for a wheelchair?

 

[A0]

Pushchairs should be folded down if a wheelchair user needs to use the space.

In a perfect world, yes.

But speaking as a parent it's not always practical.

Firstly, there's rarely any space to put a folded pushchair so that it doesn't obstruct other passengers.

Secondly, what if you've got a sleeping child in the pushchair? Should the child be woken up? Then you've got a crying child antagonizing other passengers.

Lastly, if the pushchair has been loaded with shopping then you can't fold them down without unloading all the shopping, thereby delaying the bus.

I think it's right that this case has been lost - the ramifications if they'd won would have been huge.

 

[TRN481V]

I think it's right that this case has been lost - the ramifications if they'd won would have been huge.

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. People with disabilities deserve a little extra help now and then, but that should not be at the expense of other peoples' needs.

As a PCV driver, I feel very strongly that education is the key here. Many people, I'm sad to say, are just too wrapped up in their own lives and their own importance to give much thought to fellow passengers' needs.

I have worked extensively with people with disabilities and the vast majority understand that, unfortunately, they have to make certain compromises because of their situation. It's sad, but unfortunately true.

 

[455driver]

I have mixed feelings about this, first and foremost it is a wheelchair space and just because some people feel the need to buy a pushchair the size of a 4 wheel drive car why shouldnt the wheelchair get priority, there is no need for these status symbols (the pushchairs) on public transport.

In the situation where the child is asleep in the pushchair, what would the parents do if the child was asleep when they got back to their car?
so whats the difference with getting on a bus!

When my kids were small I had a small, lightweight pushchair that was easily folded with one hand, it wasnt used as a shopping trolley and I didnt try and get the months shopping on it as happens now.

Conversely if its a busy (peak time) bus and the area is being used by standing passengers then the wheelchair will have to wait as would a stupidly large pushchair.

 

[D6975]

My son is now 6, so it's not that long since I was taking a pushchair on the bus. I always folded it up before the bus arrived at the stop and carried him onto the bus. What I find annoying is the increasing number of people with huge pushchairs that don't fold up at all. I think bus companies should be entitled to refuse to carry such beasts. Not only is there the obvious inconvenience, but these are sometimes so large that navigating them on/off a busy bus takes ages and slows down the bus considerably.

edit - 455driver was posting simultaneously with pretty much the same POV.

 

[telstarbox]

In a perfect world, yes.

But speaking as a parent it's not always practical.

Firstly, there's rarely any space to put a folded pushchair so that it doesn't obstruct other passengers.

Secondly, what if you've got a sleeping child in the pushchair? Should the child be woken up? Then you've got a crying child antagonizing other passengers.

Lastly, if the pushchair has been loaded with shopping then you can't fold them down without unloading all the shopping, thereby delaying the bus.

I think it's right that this case has been lost - the ramifications if they'd won would have been huge.

The difference is that small children don't have to go in pushchairs - they are for convenience, whereas some wheelchair users can't get around without their chairs.

 

[tbtc]

In a perfect world, yes.

But speaking as a parent it's not always practical.

Firstly, there's rarely any space to put a folded pushchair so that it doesn't obstruct other passengers.

Secondly, what if you've got a sleeping child in the pushchair? Should the child be woken up? Then you've got a crying child antagonizing other passengers.

Lastly, if the pushchair has been loaded with shopping then you can't fold them down without unloading all the shopping, thereby delaying the bus.

I think it's right that this case has been lost - the ramifications if they'd won would have been huge.

Agreed - it's not always as simple as "just fold it" - you've then potentially got a parent on their own trying to hold onto a baby, a buggy and some bags of shopping - imagine the first time AmbulanceLawyers4U represent the parents of a baby who was hurt when a bus jolted (since the parent didn't have the baby strapped into anything because they had to fold up the buggy).

As a parent, I am prepared to fold the buggy up when needed (and I got off the bus a couple of stops early last month when I spotted a wheelchair user getting on, since it was easier for me to walk a little of the way than to try to wake a toddler and fold a buggy).

However, where do you draw the line? Should I sue if there are no seats left?

I think that the important thing here is that its up to passengers - bus drivers have enough on their plate without expecting them to "police" disputes like this.

 

[455driver]

I think that the important thing here is that its up to passengers - bus drivers have enough on their plate without expecting them to "police" disputes like this.

I agree with the rest of your post entirely, its nice when people are considerate like yourself, but allowing the passengers to Police themselves wont work now that most people are full of their own self importance especially the-
"I dont work but have dropped a couple of sprogs so the world owes me" brigade.

 

[tbtc]

I agree with the rest of your post entirely, its nice when people are considerate like yourself, but allowing the passengers to Police themselves wont work now that most people are full of their own self importance especially the-
"I dont work but have dropped a couple of sprogs so the world owes me" brigade.

It's a tricky balance.

Personally I think that the driver has a tough enough time of it - dealing with the driving as well as taking fares/ questions - if people start expecting drivers to intervene in arguments about pushchairs then they might start trying to get the driver to intervene in arguments about other passengers using their bag to take up the adjacent seat, that kind of thing.

 

[455driver]

You make it sound as if the drivers dont get involved now!

Unless its changed in the last 10 years then the driver is in the thick of it.

 

[robertclark125]

It goes back to a level playing field. The wheelchair users in this case felt that someone should give up their space for them, as the area was full. Do I, as an able bodied passenger, have the right to sue a bus firm if the bus is full and I can't get on board? No.

Do I have to give up my seat to a wheelchair user, and then I have to be made to wait on the next bus? No.

The rules are clear, first come first served. That's non discriminatory. What these who tried to sue Arriva North east wanted was positive discrimination. But, that's still discrimination. When we talk about equal opportunities here, that also applies to waiting on a bus.

 

[transmanche]

Do I have to give up my seat to a wheelchair user, and then I have to be made to wait on the next bus? No.

From the Arriva Conditions of Carriage:

When not required by a wheelchair or scooter customer, the wheelchair space on accessible buses can be used by up to two buggies, prams or pushchairs. Use of the wheelchair space by any customer is subject at all times to enough space being available and the discretion of the driver.

 

[EssexGonzo]

This sounds like the often cited disabled loo argument (not just on trains).

Disabled toilet facilities are capable of being used by wheelchair users rather than for the exclusive or prioritised use by them.

It always surprises me (on the rare occasions) when an able bodied person exits such a facility and gets the evil eye of a wheelchair user who's had to wait.

 

[telstarbox]

It goes back to a level playing field. The wheelchair users in this case felt that someone should give up their space for them, as the area was full. Do I, as an able bodied passenger, have the right to sue a bus firm if the bus is full and I can't get on board? No. (...)

The rules are clear, first come first served. That's non discriminatory. What these who tried to sue Arriva North east wanted was positive discrimination. But, that's still discrimination. When we talk about equal opportunities here, that also applies to waiting on a bus.

It isn't a level playing field though. Wheelchair users need to use a wheelchair to get around and therefore they should have priority for the designated area because this is the only place they can be accommodated on the bus. They can't just stand up and fold their wheelchair down.

A parent and child are still able to travel without the child remaining in the pushchair although it is less convenient. If no wheelchair users need to use the space and it's free for pushchairs, that's a bonus. At no point was it suggested that another passenger would have to exit the bus for a wheelchair user to board.

It is disappointing that this went as far as the courts when the application of common sense would have avoided the problem.

 

[transmanche]

It is disappointing that this went as far as the courts when the application of common sense would have avoided the problem.

From my memory of the report on BBC Look North recently, I think they were taking it court as a test case to get clarification on the law - rather than being aggrieved with Arriva per se.

 

[Deerfold]

Pushchairs should be folded down if a wheelchair user needs to use the space.

Indeed. But who can make someone do that?

Bus operators generally don't have byelaws to fall back on if people don't co-operate.

 

[transmanche]

Bus operators generally don't have byelaws to fall back on if people don't co-operate.

But they do have Conditions of Carriage - see post #15.

 

[Deerfold]

But they do have Conditions of Carriage - see post #15.

I saw. And that enables them to do what if someone refuses to fold up their pram?

 

[transmanche]

I saw. And that enables them to do what if someone refuses to fold up their pram?

Kick them off the bus.

Any passenger in contravention of these and other statutory regulations may be required to give their name and address to a member of staff. Passengers may be restrained or removed from the bus or our premises by a member of staff, or by a Police Officer or Police Community Support Officer at staff request.

 

[Swirlz]

Kick them off the bus.

Originally Posted by Arriva
Any passenger in contravention of these and other statutory regulations may be required to give their name and address to a member of staff. Passengers may be restrained or removed from the bus or our premises by a member of staff, or by a Police Officer or Police Community Support Officer at staff request.

Their statutory backing is:

Section 6 - The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990, supported by Section 8(2).

The offence, for failing to allow a wheelchair passenger the designated space could be:

6(1)(b) put at risk or unreasonably impede or cause discomfort to any person travelling on or entering or leaving the vehicle

8(2) Any passenger on a vehicle who contravenes any provision of these Regulations may be removed from the vehicle by the driver, inspector or conductor of the vehicle or, on the request of the driver, inspector or conductor, by a police constable.

 

[90019]

The offence, for failing to allow a wheelchair passenger the designated space could be:

6(1)(b) put at risk or unreasonably impede or cause discomfort to any person travelling on or entering or leaving the vehicle

Could be, but isn't.
Even if it were, it would also apply to the person with the buggy who is already travelling on the bus, not just to the person in a wheelchair who wishes to travel on that bus.


Speaking as a driver (though not for Arriva), I can only request that a buggy is folded to allow someone in a wheelchair to travel. If the person refuses, then the wheelchair user will have to wait for another bus
I am not allowed to kick someone with a buggy off the bus to let a wheelchair on, and there is no argument over that.

 

[neilmc]

Kicking a mother and baby off a bus would make you really popular in the press.

 

[455driver]

Who is on about kicking the buggy passenger off the bus, they are being asked to fold the buggy down and will be staying on the bus!

 

[90019]

Who is on about kicking the buggy passenger off the bus, they are being asked to fold the buggy down and will be staying on the bus!

It's what transmanche seems to think we should do if someone refuses to fold their buggy.

 

[455driver]

Nice, such a wonderful attitude to the customers!

Maybe the area needs to be specifically allocated to wheelchairs with all the buggies being folded before boarding, solves the problem.

When I had to use a buggy for my kids the low floor buses were just coming into service so 95% of people already had the pushchairs folded before the bus arrived at the stop.

 

[jon0844]

When our baby was in a pram, it would have been impossible to travel alone in case one of us needed to take it apart, so we never used a bus with him (using the car instead).

Now our son is in a buggy and has just started walking, it's possible to have him stand instead of being carried, making it easier to fold down or put up. It's also easier to get on and off a train by not having him in the buggy, which can be folded in advance.

I totally agree that many parents I've seen are quite rude and arrogant and I try so hard to make sure we never in the way of others.

 

[transmanche]

It's what transmanche seems to think we should do if someone refuses to fold their buggy.

Really? Did I say that? Or did I just respond to Deerfold's question by explaining what the bus company could do - if it so wished.

Please don't misrepresent what I did say, by confusing it with what you think I said.