Rail near Blackwell tunnel

[anti-pacer]

Well, there must be quite a few idiots out there. I suspect most of them are visitors to London who won't bother with an Oyster card and either don't know or don't want a Travelcard or similar. To write off such people as 'idiots' is at best patronising and at worst ignorant of other's circumstances. It also does little to inspire casual visitors to visit these boards for information or advice.

I agree with that, although myself, if I were to visit a new city knowing I'd be using public transport there, I'd either research online or ask when I got there at a travel centre, etc.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I drive into London simply because there's no other option. Trains are out, buses are definately out, taxis are too expensive etc.

Of course the benefits are I have my car to myself, can go the route I choose, it's much quicker, I don't have to have someone's armpit pressed into my face, I can actually carry all the stuff I need for work in my car, and I can listen the music I like at the volume I like.

 

[transmanche]

Well no it isn't only idiots that pay cash fares on London buses, a friend of mine does the 3/N3 and takes a lot of cash fares at night, there are also people who have run out of credit on their oyster

I'm sure he does take a 'lot' of cash fares - but nowhere near as many who do not pay cash. Like I said, official figures show less than 1% pay cash.

If you choose to pay cash; you're an idiot. If you run out of credit on your Oyster (considering how easy it is to check your balance and use auto top-up) then you're an idiot.

Use of contactless credit/debit cards is increasing fast: by April 2013 (just four months after being introduced) for every four journeys paid for in cash, one was paid for with a contactless debit/credit card. I predict that once contactless debit/credit card usage outpaces cash by 2:1, we'll see cash payments abolished.

Well, it's a bit more complex than you choose to make out

Well obviously this is not the appropriate place for a detailed discussion of VED, but what I wrote is a fair one-line summary.

Well, there must be quite a few idiots out there.

As I said, less than 1% and decreasing fast.

I suspect most of them are visitors to London who won't bother with an Oyster card and either don't know or don't want a Travelcard or similar.

In some 2010 research undertaken by TfL; Oyster had 'unprompted awareness' from 56% of all first-time visitors to London. That's worth re-stating: Oyster is so well-known that more than half of all first-time visitors to London have heard of it and know what it does. Do you think that will have increased or decreased in the past three years?

To write off such people as 'idiots' is at best patronising and at worst ignorant of other's circumstances.

Do you not recognise hyperbole when you see it? :roll:

 

[DeeGee]

Let's assume you're a short drive of somewhere like Grimsby Town station. Let's disregard the landslip. I have done many north to south journeys complete with partner and child.

I personally wish for my child to spend as little time on a motorway as possible, and prefer for him to be in the safety of a train.

As luck would have it, I am located in such a location.

If I were to be going to London for the day with the family, or even perhaps a weekend, then travelling by train would be a distinct possibility. However, with a week away requiring a roof box and every spare bit of space in the car - considering that much of this detritus is mine as I'm a marathon runner and take a week's worth of kit with me so I can train - I'm not sufficiently brave to try a journey with three changes of train with that much luggage and a three year old.

I vastly prefer travelling by train myself, but I'm not totally anti-car, and my son actually enjoys looking at the various road vehicles.

 

[Antman]

I'm sure he does take a 'lot' of cash fares - but nowhere near as many who do not pay cash. Like I said, official figures show less than 1% pay cash.

If you choose to pay cash; you're an idiot. If you run out of credit on your Oyster (considering how easy it is to check your balance and use auto top-up) then you're an idiot.

Use of contactless credit/debit cards is increasing fast: by April 2013 (just four months after being introduced) for every four journeys paid for in cash, one was paid for with a contactless debit/credit card. I predict that once contactless debit/credit card usage outpaces cash by 2:1, we'll see cash payments abolished.


Well obviously this is not the appropriate place for a detailed discussion of VED, but what I wrote is a fair one-line summary.

As I said, less than 1% and decreasing fast.

In some 2010 research undertaken by TfL; Oyster had 'unprompted awareness' from 56% of all first-time visitors to London. That's worth re-stating: Oyster is so well-known that more than half of all first-time visitors to London have heard of it and know what it does. Do you think that will have increased or decreased in the past three years?

Do you not recognise hyperbole when you see it? :roll:

Well then there are obviously a lot of 'idiots' around aren't there? Sadly not everybody can be as perfect as you obviously are!

As for your '1%' argument, well wheelchair users account for considerably less than that.........would you ban them as well?

 

[transmanche]

Well then there are obviously a lot of 'idiots' around aren't there? Sadly not everybody can be as perfect as you obviously are!

Did you even read the text that you quoted? :roll:

As for your '1%' argument, well wheelchair users account for considerably less than that.........would you ban them as well?

Straw man argument.

I haven't advocated 'banning' anyone. But I have told you what TfL might be planning.

 

[Antman]

Did you even read the text that you quoted? :roll:

I haven't advocated 'banning' anyone. But I have told you what TfL are planning.

TfL have been 'planning' to remove cash fares on buses for the last few years, its no nearer happening than it was when they first suggested it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I drive into London simply because there's no other option. Trains are out, buses are definately out, taxis are too expensive etc.

Of course the benefits are I have my car to myself, can go the route I choose, it's much quicker, I don't have to have someone's armpit pressed into my face, I can actually carry all the stuff I need for work in my car, and I can listen the music I like at the volume I like.

But there are other options................you just choose not to use them!

 

[transmanche]

TfL have been 'planning' to remove cash fares on buses for the last few years

TfL have been actively working towards reducing the need for cash payments on board buses for many years, in order to speed up journey times. That's quite a different proposition.

its no nearer happening than it was when they first suggested it.

Well clearly cash payments have fallen dramatically in just the past few years; in both percentage and absolute terms. It's only now that cash usage has naturally fallen to such a low level, that it's appropriate for them to actually think about developing a 'plan' to abolish cash fares.

Cash usage has fallen so much that the roadside ticket machines now cost more to service than they actually take in fares! So they're being removed. Cash is expensive to handle and eliminating it would not only save money but increase safety for drivers.

 

[DeeGee]

I suspect most of them are visitors to London who won't bother with an Oyster card and either don't know or don't want a Travelcard or similar. To write off such people as 'idiots' is at best patronising and at worst ignorant of other's circumstances. It also does little to inspire casual visitors to visit these boards for information or advice.

Some folk from these parts have been to London once in their lives, remember it, speak fondly of it. May never go again - once in a lifetime visit and all that.

Now, I have an Oyster card because I have family in the TfL area. I also remember that I had to pay a deposit to get it - was it a tenner?

If I'm having my once in a lifetime visit to London with two hundred quid in my pocket, do I want to lose a percentage of that day's money just so I can have a reusable smartcard?

Or, what if I'm coupling my once in a lifetime trip to London with a trip to Wembley to watch a concert or an important sporting fixture and there's no trains back home at that hour. I've driven many times to Wembley, it's totally reasonable that someone who's never been to London before might drive into Town to see the sights.

 

[aleph_0]

Well, it's a bit more complex than you choose to make out - the attached Wikipedia link explains: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_excise_duty

Um, what? You were called up on using a loaded, incorrect term, out of choice rather than ignorance. The point being the VED is essentially a tax on emissions, not a hypotheticated tax for roads. Rather than acknowledge this, you respond to being complaining that the 1-sentence summary was too simple.

It's an important difference, VED isn't a tax on motorists, it's a tax on emissions.

Anyhow, going back on topic, If there are lots of people who would actually be better off taking other routes/public transport then they need convincing. It's difficult when personal examples start being offered, but there are clearly a ranger of users, making a range of journeys, some of which are essential, some of which are totally unessential. I'm not convinced moralising will do much good - people need to be convinced, either by improving the alternatives (better public transport, decent bike lanes, etc.), or making using the tunnel harder (i.e. charging, not going to happen any time soon).

The Blackwell tunnel can't really be seen as a sign of local failure in public transport/rail. It (and more generally, the Thames), forms a bottleneck over a much wider area. This makes it and any solutions dependent on your overall philosophy towards transport.

 

[transmanche]

If I'm having my once in a lifetime visit to London with two hundred quid in my pocket, do I want to lose a percentage of that day's money just so I can have a reusable smartcard?

No, you'd buy a Visitor Oystercard or a paper One Day Travelcard. I doubt you'd want to pay cash for every journey you make!

If you were a tourist making a once-in-a-lifetime visit to London, you'd probably do some research first and read the useful TfL information which helps visitors to choose the appropriate ticket.

 

[John Webb]

The principle problem for the north-bound traffic in Blackwall tunnel is the fact that that is the old Victorian bore with bends designed for relatively slow-moving horse-drawn traffic. In addition there are height limitations on one lane caused by the bends; it all adds up to an awkward speed-restricted transit. The south-bound tunnel, being of much more recent construction, is much easier to get through. Ideally a rebuild of the north-bound tunnel would give a much better transit.

The other solution is the 'East London Crossing' - this has been debated since the 1950s or before and would consist of a bridge over the Thames between the Woolwich/Plumstead area on the south side of the river and Newham/Barking on the north side. I was first aware of this as a small child in Woolwich where I used to live when my parents pointed out a section of road by the Artillery Barracks which they said was to have been the start of the bridge over to the north side but WW2 intervened........

The suggestion was renewed when Thamesmead was under construction, and has been revived every decade since!

I admit that with no family left in south London I'm extremely happy I don't have to face the Blackwall tunnel at all these days, in or outside of the 'rush hour'.

On the heavy rail side there were also suggestions that the Angerstein Wharf line should be adapted to go under the Thames at Charlton and link up to the Stratford/North Woolwich line to give an 'Orbital Railway'. That of course has come about but with the line significantly closer to Central London, which isn't so useful for those in the outer areas of SE London.

 

[bicbasher]

If you were a tourist making a once-in-a-lifetime visit to London, you'd probably do some research first and read the useful TfL information which helps visitors to choose the appropriate ticket.

As a regular user of Charing Cross and Leicester Square LU ticket offices and have shared a queue with many tourists, they tend to use one of three options.

1. Paper off-peak One Day Travelcards. (This is an option favoured by those travelling to Heathrow)
2. Oyster with PAYG
3. Oyster with a 7 day Z1-2 travelcard.

Very rarely you may see them ask for a £4.50 cash single, yet most if not all LU ticket clerks suggest a One Day Travelcard.

 

[Antman]

TfL have been actively working towards reducing the need for cash payments on board buses for many years, in order to speed up journey times. That's quite a different proposition.

Well clearly cash payments have fallen dramatically in just the past few years; in both percentage and absolute terms. It's only now that cash usage has naturally fallen to such a low level, that it's appropriate for them to actually think about developing a 'plan' to abolish cash fares.

Cash usage has fallen so much that the roadside ticket machines now cost more to service than they actually take in fares! So they're being removed. Cash is expensive to handle and eliminating it would not only save money but increase safety for drivers.

Roadside ticket machines have cost more to service than what they collect ever since they were introduced.

Yes there are many reasons for going cashless but the overiding question remains, what happens to the 1%?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

But there are other options................you just choose not to use them!

When trains can get me home at 3am, don't take too long, and I don't have a lug a large amount of PPE with me, and my organisation stops advising us not to use public transport to go to work for safety reasons then I might use them. Until then, they are not an option.

 

[carriageline]

The principle problem for the north-bound traffic in Blackwall tunnel is the fact that that is the old Victorian bore with bends designed for relatively slow-moving horse-drawn traffic. In addition there are height limitations on one lane caused by the bends; it all adds up to an awkward speed-restricted transit. The south-bound tunnel, being of much more recent construction, is much easier to get through. Ideally a rebuild of the north-bound tunnel would give a much better transit.

Nail-Head, this is exactly it. The MB tunnel is too tight to be racing through. Add a lorry/bus/large van in that has to swing into both lanes to make corners, and people who want to take the poplar exit straight after the tunnel, but sat in the right lane, also slows/stops traffic. The biggest problem coming up to the tunnel, is the ridiculous amount of traffic wanting to join at the various slip-roads. These days, if I don't leave before half 5, I don't go through the tunnel. Not worth the rage it builds it up!

The south bound tunnel used to be bad at going home time, I remember ques far back as hackney. Not sure if its less busy now they have changed the road layout, as I rarely finish that Late these days, for this reason alone!!

Not sure added congestion charges would improve everything, not everyone goes into congestion, and I'm willing to bet alot of people would avoid it then anyway, and park in the various car parks that avoid the CC area anyway.

I'm afraid they would never get rid of the CC for tradesmen, it just bring in far too much money.

 

[anti-pacer]

Most areas of the country have some form of Travelcard. Here in West Yorkshire, we have the Day Rover (the clue's in the name), and Metrocard as our season ticket option, so I would presume that anyone with any logical thought intending on using public transport in a different town/city/region would ask themselves the following; (I will base this on London)

1) How many journeys do I intend to make?
2) By what mode of transport (bus, train, tram, tube, DLR)?
3) Which will be the cheapest, hassle-free method?

If, say for instance, you drive in, park on the Embankment (as my brother and I have done many times), but you intend on staying in the West End so therefore walk, you may find yourself on say, Oxford Street, and not want to walk back to your car. You then need to get a bus (£2.40) or a tube (£4.50).

If, however, you get off the train at King's Cross with the intention of seeing as many sights within Central London as you can cram into a day, then you're going to go for the Travelcard/Oyster option.

I would therefore suggest that a large proportion of the 1% of cash fares would be 'one-off' journeys as I have highlighted above.

Hardly makes people 'idiots' for doing so!

 

[Marvin]

Usually I'll prefer crossing the Thames via Blackwall knowing that it takes about 20 minutes longer but saves me two quid.

With today's fuel prices you'll most likely be burning more than £2 worth of petrol in that extra 20 minutes of driving.

 

[transmanche]

Yes there are many reasons for going cashless but the overiding question remains, what happens to the 1%?

The less-than-1%-and-reducing-all-the-time? What do you think will happen? Maybe they will choose to fall in line with the vast majority. Or perhaps they will become part of the 1,000 people every week (and growing all the time), who use a contactless debit/credit card to pay for a TfL bus fare for the very first time.

Or maybe TfL will just increase the cash fare to £5...

 

[DeeGee]

With today's fuel prices you'll most likely be burning more than £2 worth of petrol in that extra 20 minutes of driving.

Which I subsequently make up filling the car at Sainsbury's in Greenwich instead of at Thurrock Services

 

[transmanche]

If, say for instance, you drive in, park on the Embankment (as my brother and I have done many times), but you intend on staying in the West End so therefore walk, you may find yourself on say, Oxford Street, and not want to walk back to your car. You then need to get a bus (£2.40) or a tube (£4.50).

OK, so you have done this 'many times', but have chosen not to get an Oyster card? Thus paying an extra £1 (bus) or £2.40 (tube) on every single journey. That doesn't sound particularly sensible to me...

Hardly makes people 'idiots' for doing so!

Ever heard of hyperbole?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Roadside ticket machines have cost more to service than what they collect ever since they were introduced.

When they were introduced, 20% of fares were paid for in cash. Now it's less than 1%...

 

[deltic]

When trains can get me home at 3am, don't take too long, and I don't have a lug a large amount of PPE with me, and my organisation stops advising us not to use public transport to go to work for safety reasons then I might use them. Until then, they are not an option.

I see you work for one of those organisations that does not fully understand risk - bit like mine.

Remember talking to risk assessment people at ICI many decades ago, They reviewed their whole business including all their chemical plants and identified the key risks to their employees. The highest risk was staff driving on business - so they flew them from Teeside to Liverpool and Manchester for inter-company meetings!

 

[anti-pacer]

OK, so you have done this 'many times', but have chosen not to get an Oyster card? Thus paying an extra £1 (bus) or £2.40 (tube) on every single journey. That doesn't sound particularly sensible to me...

Normally when we've parked on the Embankment, we've got a One Day Travelcard, zone dependent on where we're going. The scenario I was using was based on someone driving in and only staying local(ish).

Whenever I've travelled down on the train, I do the same. I quite often do a "Travelcard Challenge" where I travel to the outlying four corners of London using as many modes of transport as I can, adding in and paying extra for the Thames Clipper, so therefore get Zones 1-6.

 

[Antman]

OK, so you have done this 'many times', but have chosen not to get an Oyster card? Thus paying an extra £1 (bus) or £2.40 (tube) on every single journey. That doesn't sound particularly sensible to me...

Ever heard of hyperbole?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When they were introduced, 20% of fares were paid for in cash. Now it's less than 1%...

20%? Most of those machines were hardly ever used

 

[Yew]

For most journies in London a car is certainly not the only option

Okay, I'll bring my 3m long kayak with me on the tube.

 

[transmanche]

20%? Most of those machines were hardly ever used

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19763691

The same article says that in nine years they accumulated over £2 million in overpayments (as they didn't give change). In 2005 the machines collected £737,032 in overpayments - about 2.86 per cent of the total collected from the machines that year.[*] Therefore the machines took almost £25.8 million that year. Which shows that your claim:

Roadside ticket machines have cost more to service than what they collect ever since they were introduced.

... is 'somewhat wide of the mark'.

* Source: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ve-change-cost-bus-passengers-2m-8189290.html

 

[A0]

Um, what? You were called up on using a loaded, incorrect term, out of choice rather than ignorance. The point being the VED is essentially a tax on emissions, not a hypotheticated tax for roads. Rather than acknowledge this, you respond to being complaining that the 1-sentence summary was too simple.

It's an important difference, VED isn't a tax on motorists, it's a tax on emissions.

Balls - methane is one of the commonest greenhouse gases. You produce methane every time you fart - are you taxed for farting?

Cows belch methane - ditto, I don't see a tax on cattle for their emissions.

It is a tax on motorists - the amount levied varies depending on the emissions of the car, but emissions are not the reason the tax exists. So it is a tax on motorists.

 

[transmanche]

It is a tax on motorists - the amount levied varies depending on the emissions of the car

Including band A at zero cost.

So it is a tax on motorists.

Clearly not, as some motorists pay nothing - including those driving electric cars, or cars more than 40 years old.

Even Band C only costs £30 a year (for petrol and diesel cars).

 

[Antman]

How have the above quotes been attributed to me? I didn't post them

 

[transmanche]

How have the above quotes been attributed to me? I didn't post them

I have no idea! But I have manually edited the post to show the correct attribution.