Watching the routemaster on tv tonight, and seeing all the queues associated with the Blackwell tunnel, I am wondering why do people bother driving in that part of London? Is there a lack of rail routes in the area or are these people determined to drive?
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Rail near Blackwell tunnel
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Yes there are trains but people like the bloke who said he'd driven to work through the Blackwall Tunnel for years and refuses to use trains are making unecessary road journeys that add to the congestion. There should be more and higher congestion charges to discourage such people - with the proceeds put into public transport.
kevinwaltets
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Why should there be more congestion charge. It's a free country and some of us use road and rail. Trains unfortunately do not run day and night and sometimes the car is the only option.
A few reasons:
South of the river in Greenwich and Bexley public transport is poor (by London standards) there are no tube routes and there are no buses direct to Central London from anywhere east of Plumstead.
Not everybody works in Central London either - Blackwall is the access route from south London onto the North Circular for anyone travelling into northern boroughs for work. The extensions to the ELL have helped but they don't cover every journey.
Some people (me for instance) also require their car for work purposes during the day. Using public transport for site visits really cuts down what you can achieve in a given time so you take your car.
Lastly Blackwall is the easternmost crossing barring the (slow) Woolwich Ferry and the Dartford toll which is £2 charged in both directions. Blackwall is free.
I used to drive out to work from New Cross to Bexleyheath each day and wondered what made people sit in those traffic jams every single day and yet they still do so there must be a good reason.
South of the river in Greenwich and Bexley public transport is poor (by London standards) there are no tube routes and there are no buses direct to Central London from anywhere east of Plumstead.
Not everybody works in Central London either - Blackwall is the access route from south London onto the North Circular for anyone travelling into northern boroughs for work. The extensions to the ELL have helped but they don't cover every journey.
Some people (me for instance) also require their car for work purposes during the day. Using public transport for site visits really cuts down what you can achieve in a given time so you take your car.
Lastly Blackwall is the easternmost crossing barring the (slow) Woolwich Ferry and the Dartford toll which is £2 charged in both directions. Blackwall is free.
I used to drive out to work from New Cross to Bexleyheath each day and wondered what made people sit in those traffic jams every single day and yet they still do so there must be a good reason.
The Barlow Boy
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Three words.
South East Trains. At least when your car journey is delayed you're sitting down in your own place and not jammed up against someone who's idea of personal hygiene may not be the same as yours.
South East Trains. At least when your car journey is delayed you're sitting down in your own place and not jammed up against someone who's idea of personal hygiene may not be the same as yours.
As a regular user of SET I think they generally do a pretty good job, they certainly cannot be held responsible for congestion at the Blackwall Tunnel
moogal
Member
If you're driving between North-east and South-east London it's about your only reasonable option to cross the river - it connects to the A12 and A2.
The Rotherhithe tunnel is 20mph and doesn't really go anywhere useful, and further in you're right in the centre of London, which isn't practical as a route most of the time. The Dartford crossing is much further out, and the Woolwich ferry suffers from poor connections and traffic congestion south of the river, plus it's susceptible to delays from weather or technical issues.
The Rotherhithe tunnel is 20mph and doesn't really go anywhere useful, and further in you're right in the centre of London, which isn't practical as a route most of the time. The Dartford crossing is much further out, and the Woolwich ferry suffers from poor connections and traffic congestion south of the river, plus it's susceptible to delays from weather or technical issues.
It's probably cheaper for them to drive in a car by themselves than it is to use rail, especially if they already own a car for other purposes and would retain the car if they commuted to work by train anyway.
There's no congestion charge at night.
Near the Blackwall tunnel, the Jubilee line connects North Greenwich with Canning Town, the (expensive) Emirates Airline cable car, along with the DLR extension to Woolwich Arsenal.
That corner of SE London will also have Crossrail from 2019 serving Abbey Wood, which should relieve some of the pressure off Southeastern's commuter routes from Dartford and to a lesser extent the Medway Towns for passengers who refuse to pay the HS1 premium.
That corner of SE London will also have Crossrail from 2019 serving Abbey Wood, which should relieve some of the pressure off Southeastern's commuter routes from Dartford and to a lesser extent the Medway Towns for passengers who refuse to pay the HS1 premium.
carriageline
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Why do we choose to? Because there is little choice sometimes. I occasionally cut through Falconwood, Peckham, south London, etc, but they feels like it takes an absolute age.
I have to use blackwall, as I have a van and need to transport ladders, drills, hand tools, and cable. For me, there IS NO other option. I now have to leave at 5-15 to beat any traffic at blackwall, a few years ago it would of been 6.
But according to some, i should suffer from a hike in congestion charge? The stupidity on this place actually gets worse every day.
People have to remember its a very very old tunnel, and I doubt it was ever designed to have this amount of traffic In a week, never mind a day. The road layout approaching it could do with a bit of work.
I have to use blackwall, as I have a van and need to transport ladders, drills, hand tools, and cable. For me, there IS NO other option. I now have to leave at 5-15 to beat any traffic at blackwall, a few years ago it would of been 6.
But according to some, i should suffer from a hike in congestion charge? The stupidity on this place actually gets worse every day.
People have to remember its a very very old tunnel, and I doubt it was ever designed to have this amount of traffic In a week, never mind a day. The road layout approaching it could do with a bit of work.
Tradesman who need to take a car or van into London for genuine work reasons should be exempt from congestion charge.
Those who choose to drive (alone) because they don't like trains should pay far more.
Yes it is a free country - they would still have the choice, but why should roads be free while train fares increase above inflatation every year.
We have to cut congestion, for environmental reasons and to enable those vehicles that have a genuine need to drive to get about in London.
Those who choose to drive (alone) because they don't like trains should pay far more.
Yes it is a free country - they would still have the choice, but why should roads be free while train fares increase above inflatation every year.
We have to cut congestion, for environmental reasons and to enable those vehicles that have a genuine need to drive to get about in London.
IanD
Established Member
For now.
DeeGee
Member
I live in Northern Lincolnshire. My parents live in Mid-Kent. As I visit them with a wife, a 3 year old boy and all the asociated accoutrements I drive.
Usually I'll prefer crossing the Thames via Blackwall knowing that it takes about 20 minutes longer but saves me two quid. Sometimes even that 20 minutes is made up by the queues for the toll at Dartford.
And I suppose everyone else is driving just for the sake of it, totally aimlessly, right?
Because a road is just that - a road - whereas a rail service is a service. You can't compare road and trains, that's silly - instead compare trains with a road based *service*, like buses.
The answer is more appealing fares for rail, not making expensive rail look good value by artificially making driving more expensive.
There really is an issue with the cost of public transport in this country at times. Last week I used a bus to get to the train station - a single ticket for a journey of just 4 miles cost me £2.50. I think even in an S500 Mercedes the fuel would have cost less than that (Fixed costs like insurance of course being irrelevent as the car would already have been sat on the drive)!
They aren't "free" they are funded from the pool of taxation, and if you bother to look at the figures you'll find that motorists pay through various taxes - road fund licence, fuel duty, VAT on fuel, VAT on parts, Insurance Premium tax etc etc far far more than is ever spent on the road network in this country on an annual basis.
On that basis, the motorist is already subsidising rail users - why should they subsisdise them still further for a poorer and poorer road network?
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Again, not an entirely reasonable comparison.
FWIW the cheapest single bus fare in London is £ 2.40 and that's not going to take you 4 miles.
Bus fares have increased, but I don't think they've actually raced ahead of inflation. Certainly the various PTEs and bus companies have moved their focus and want passengers to pay for multiple journeys up-front usually by making such methods of payment cheaper than the cash option - either by buying weekly tickets or using a contactless payment e.g. Oyster - and I kind of understand that since it makes the boarding process quicker and reduces risk of theft if the bus is carrying less money around.
Part of the problem is it's very easy to say 'but it only used to be x pence' - forgetting that a number of years have passed and inflation and increased costs all lead to higher fares.
In many parts of the country the vehicles used seem to be far newer and in better condition than in the past. Example I'd give is where I lived 25 years ago the normal bus was a London Country National, at least 7 years old, usually looking decidedly down-at heel. Today, Stagecoach run a relatively new fleet, even the oldest vehicles appear to be in far better condition than those old Nationals ever did.
Let's assume you're a short drive of somewhere like Grimsby Town station. Let's disregard the landslip. I have done many north to south journeys complete with partner and child.
I personally wish for my child to spend as little time on a motorway as possible, and prefer for him to be in the safety of a train.
That's fine - and that's your decision. DeeGee has made their decision.
If I was doing a journey to visit family with the children I'd choose to use the car every time. It's more convenient, it's usually quicker, there's a guaranteed seat and we can then use the car whilst we're there. Personally, I don't want to be constrained by having to travel at a certain time because of the vagaries of rail timetables.
what is road fund licence? Do you mean Vehicle Excise Duty and Drivers Licence?
anti-pacer
Established Member
One of the problems with congestion at the Blackwall Tunnel is the speed limit inside the tunnel itself which I believe is variable between 20-30 mph.
That coupled with the fact that so many roads converge around that area.
You have...
A2 - the main road in from North and East Kent and the northern parts of South East London.
A20 - the main road in from the rest of Kent and southern parts of South East London.
A205 - South Circular Road, linking much of South and South East London to the tunnel.
They all meet a couple of miles south of the tunnel.
Now try and funnel all the traffic that creates through two lanes of slow moving tunnel traffic and you have major congestion.
It doesn't help that the nearest crossing east of the tunnel is all the way out in Dartford, Kent, and the nearest WORTHY crossing west is Tower Bridge.
Blackwall Tunnel is right next to Docklands, and also links onto both the A12/A13 for North East London and Essex, and in turn the A406 North Circular Road.
The solution is another crossing which I believe is being suggested towards Thamesmead/Barking.
As for rail, well you have DLR from both Woolwich Arsenal and Greenwich, but I think what's really needed is a heavy rail link to the Docklands, and that's what Crossrail will deliver.
Will that ease things? Possibly, but I doubt it will make much difference.
People who want to travel by car won't be persuaded to travel by train, and if I still had my car, there's no way on this earth I'd travel by Northern Rail, unless it was made attractive to do so.
That coupled with the fact that so many roads converge around that area.
You have...
A2 - the main road in from North and East Kent and the northern parts of South East London.
A20 - the main road in from the rest of Kent and southern parts of South East London.
A205 - South Circular Road, linking much of South and South East London to the tunnel.
They all meet a couple of miles south of the tunnel.
Now try and funnel all the traffic that creates through two lanes of slow moving tunnel traffic and you have major congestion.
It doesn't help that the nearest crossing east of the tunnel is all the way out in Dartford, Kent, and the nearest WORTHY crossing west is Tower Bridge.
Blackwall Tunnel is right next to Docklands, and also links onto both the A12/A13 for North East London and Essex, and in turn the A406 North Circular Road.
The solution is another crossing which I believe is being suggested towards Thamesmead/Barking.
As for rail, well you have DLR from both Woolwich Arsenal and Greenwich, but I think what's really needed is a heavy rail link to the Docklands, and that's what Crossrail will deliver.
Will that ease things? Possibly, but I doubt it will make much difference.
People who want to travel by car won't be persuaded to travel by train, and if I still had my car, there's no way on this earth I'd travel by Northern Rail, unless it was made attractive to do so.
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Correct - Road Fund Licence was the original name for Vehicle Excise Duty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_Fund
Colloquially people still refer to it as Road Fund Licence or Tax Disc - still the same thing though.
I don't think the speed limit makes any difference, its down to a crawl at busy times anyway
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Blackwall Tunnel is well outside the congestion charge zone anyway
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It is difficult, if not impossible, to identify who exactly these tradesman are who need to drive into London, I'm sure everybody would claim that they have genuine reasons for doing so.
These tradesman should benefit from less traffic congestion.
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There are intensive commuter coach services from both the Medway Towns and Gravesend that use the Blackwall Tunnel giving direct access to Canary Wharf and then onto The City
JohnB57
Member
As plenty of people quite rightly say, roads are not free. But consider that you and everbody else in the world depend totally on roads and road transport. However you look at it, rail is a personal choice. Roads are not.
transmanche
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There is no such thing as a road fund licence. There is a CO2 emissions tax (based on engine size for older cars) known as 'Vehicle Excise Duty'.
That's the cash fare. And only an idiot would pay cash on a London bus. In fact TfL have proposed abolishing cash fares on buses, as less than 1% of journeys are paid for in cash.
The 'real' fare is £1.40 - which can be paid for with an Oyster card, or a contactless credit/debit card.
And that £1.40 will take you the length of any TfL bus route in London; the X26 and N9 are both 21 miles long - and there are loads of other routes that go into 'double digit' mileage.
Well no it isn't only idiots that pay cash fares on London buses, a friend of mine does the 3/N3 and takes a lot of cash fares at night, there are also people who have run out of credit on their oyster. If TfL abolished cash fares they would have to let such people travel for free so it's not likely to happen anytime soon.
anti-pacer
Established Member
Yes, it's down to a crawl for the reasons I suggested. :roll:
Well, it's a bit more complex than you choose to make out - the attached Wikipedia link explains: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_excise_duty
Well, there must be quite a few idiots out there. I suspect most of them are visitors to London who won't bother with an Oyster card and either don't know or don't want a Travelcard or similar. To write off such people as 'idiots' is at best patronising and at worst ignorant of other's circumstances. It also does little to inspire casual visitors to visit these boards for information or advice.
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