Rail replacement - for the customers/for the TOCs?

[A-driver]

Rail Replacement Buses or Taxis should only be used to convey passengers or staff from point to point, this is what the driver is contracted to do and paid to do. :

I guess busses are different but taxis are paid in mileage and many companies track them. When my TOC gets us taxis to or from work they must be booked to our nearest station, not out house. I live closer to my depot than nearest station so always ask the taxi driver to drop me at the side of the road he needs to drive down to get to my local station. They all will but they will then carry on to the station as that's the only way they will get paid for what they are booked-they are paid on mileage.

 

[Chrisgr31]

They may have luggage stored in the hold though.

Ahhh that's a rail replacement coach, not rail replacement bus! On the Uckfield Line on lucky days we get a rail replacement coach supplied by Hams Coaches and they are nice and comfortable, on unlucky days we get a rail replacement bus supplied either by Southern Transit (owned by GoAhead Group) or Metrobus and they are noisy uncomfortable things.

Thinking about it all rail replacements are unlucky days but if its a bus its even unluckier!

I think the difference between getting bus and coach depends on the reason for replacement. If its an emergency because the line is blocked by a train failure, signalling or whatever then its a Hams Coach, if its a planned replacement service (engineering work) then its a bus.

It may also be that the drivers on commuter routes are more flexible with where they stop. On the Uckfield line the bus adds about 45 minutes to the journey between Oxted and Crowborough so the extra few minutes by making extra stops make no effective difference.

 

[pjnathanail]

It would take far, far longer.

Take a rail replacement from Stevenage to peterbourgh. Basically the coach has to follow the A1 all the way. But every time it goes to a rail station it needs to turn off the A1, along country roads, into the town centre and out again. If no one on the bus wants a certain station then it can save huge amounts if time to skip that station. Especially late at night, few people will want to get on so you could spend 20mims driving up to a station just to find no one there. Best to not stop and tell anyone at the station to use the help point where a taxi will be organised.

I actually meant bus stops-in this case the coach could continue along the A1 but if it passed a bus stop where it would be safe to stop, why not let the passengers off? Same with taxis, if it is no diversion why not provide better customer service.

 

[455driver]

I actually meant bus stops-in this case the coach could continue along the A1 but if it passed a bus stop where it would be safe to stop, why not let the passengers off? Same with taxis, if it is no diversion why not provide better customer service.

So dropping one person off and delaying (up to) 50 others is good customer service is it?
I suppose it depends on if you are the one being dropped off or just one of the 50 being delayed!

Its like all the "why couldnt the train wait for me, dont they understand customer srrvice" threads that pop up on here, the staff are showing good customer service to all the people that have managed to get on the train in time!

 

[A-driver]

I actually meant bus stops-in this case the coach could continue along the A1 but if it passed a bus stop where it would be safe to stop, why not let the passengers off? Same with taxis, if it is no diversion why not provide better customer service.

"I live on the road which runs parallel to the A1...do you mind driving that way please so you can drop me off at my house."

The bus stops where the train does. It's a rail replacement service, not a taxi for your individual benefit. If they stopped where everyone wanted them to then it would take for ever to get anywhere.

If it was a train you'd have to g off at the station so do the same on a bus!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

When you are all talking about it 'only' being thirty seconds, or even if it is three minutes, have any of you considered what the time delay is if more than one person wants to get off at more than one place that isn't a station?

Have you considered other people on the bus/coach who have longer journeys ahead of them, maybe with connections to make further along the journey? No, of course you haven't, because they are not important to your journey are they???

 

[Chrisgr31]

Lets say I am on a late night train and am planning on getting a taxi from the destination station. This is fine if the service is a train as I know what time it will get to the station and therefore I can prebook. Not only that but the train gets there before midnight so I am paying the standard taxi fare.

If due to engineering works it is a bus instead of a train I can no longer prebook my taxi as I have no idea what time it will arrive at the station, but what I do know is that it will arrive after midnight so my taxi will now cost me 50% more. So not only am I going to be at least 45 minutes later but my taxi is going to cost me more. However some of the rail replacement buses take a route that runs within a 3 minute walk of my house therefore saving me being even later and saving me money. Yes the few seconds it takes the bus to stop adds to the time the other 7 or so passengers are on the bus for, but my experience is that generally the bus only makes a few additional stops and in fact the majority of passengers get off at a stop which is not at a station, therefore the additional stops actually benefit the majority.

What I really want to know is why our replacement bus service always has to go to Hurst Green when invariably trains are running there and no one gets on or off it there. Failing that why cant the bus start there? Apparently its lack of staff, but thats easily solved moved the member of staff from Oxted to Hurst Green!

 

[A-driver]

Lets say I am on a late night train and am planning on getting a taxi from the destination station. This is fine if the service is a train as I know what time it will get to the station and therefore I can prebook. Not only that but the train gets there before midnight so I am paying the standard taxi fare.

If due to engineering works it is a bus instead of a train I can no longer prebook my taxi as I have no idea what time it will arrive at the station, but what I do know is that it will arrive after midnight so my taxi will now cost me 50% more. So not only am I going to be at least 45 minutes later but my taxi is going to cost me more. However some of the rail replacement buses take a route that runs within a 3 minute walk of my house therefore saving me being even later and saving me money. Yes the few seconds it takes the bus to stop adds to the time the other 7 or so passengers are on the bus for, but my experience is that generally the bus only makes a few additional stops and in fact the majority of passengers get off at a stop which is not at a station, therefore the additional stops actually benefit the majority.

What I really want to know is why our replacement bus service always has to go to Hurst Green when invariably trains are running there and no one gets on or off it there. Failing that why cant the bus start there? Apparently its lack of staff, but thats easily solved moved the member of staff from Oxted to Hurst Green!

Replacement busses are normally well advertised well in advance so you an plan your day around that and catch an earlier train home.

I'm very sorry that the railways don't take your personal circumstances into consideration when planning essential maintenance work-have you considered writing to network rail and your local toc to inform them of your movements over the next few weeks so that they can plan the engineering work around you? If you need to avoid paying extra for a cab after an extended bus journey then they may be able to help, perhaps move the engineering work to 6-9 Tuesday morning instead? At least it won't inconvenience you that way.

Perhaps the bus should just take you straight home and miss out everyone else's station to avoid further delay to you? I mean its not like other people have homes to get to.

Why not go the whole hog. If your back garden backs onto the railway line then tell the driver where it is when you get on and he can stop and let you off there, we could do that for every passenger couldn't we?

Once again, please do accept my most heartfelt apologies on behalf of the industry I work for for making your life difficult. It's almost like it isn't your personal taxi service but public transport.

Or may I suggest that you buy a car as you are obviously too important to be made to catch a bus which has been advertised weeks in advance and pay the extra taxi fare.

 

[DarloRich]

Replacement busses are normally well advertised well in advance so you an plan your day around that and catch an earlier train home.

I'm very sorry that the railways don't take your personal circumstances into consideration when planning essential maintenance work-have you considered writing to network rail and your local toc to inform them of your movements over the next few weeks so that they can plan the engineering work around you? If you need to avoid paying extra for a cab after an extended bus journey then they may be able to help, perhaps move the engineering work to 6-9 Tuesday morning instead? At least it won't inconvenience you that way.

Perhaps the bus should just take you straight home and miss out everyone else's station to avoid further delay to you? I mean its not like other people have homes to get to.

Why not go the whole hog. If your back garden backs onto the railway line then tell the driver where it is when you get on and he can stop and let you off there, we could do that for every passenger couldn't we?

Once again, please do accept my most heartfelt apologies on behalf of the industry I work for for making your life difficult. It's almost like it isn't your personal taxi service but public transport.

Or may I suggest that you buy a car as you are obviously too important to be made to catch a bus which has been advertised weeks in advance and pay the extra taxi fare.

well said - many people seem to think the world revolves around them! It must be terrible not being able to command the bus driver to stop outside your door. First world trauma right there!

 

[tamesidedepot]

In this case though, if Chapeltom was the only person who wished to travel to Chinley, then being allowed off at Ferodo would have speeded up the journey time for other passengers (as originally stated there were no pick ups on this service). The bus could have travelled along the A6 which is a much faster road (dual carriageway) rather than a B road with many twists and turns between Chinley and New Mills.

 

[RailProfileUK]

Hi all

I'm on a rail replacement arranged at short notice from Sheffield to Chinley. Now this is the last service, as the 2247 off Sheffield and apparently calls at stations only on demand. After 2145 this was cancelled and replaced by a bus. Now with a 2hr 12 gap between the 2035 and 2247 surely some people will have wanted the last train from intermediate stations and yet this bus calls at the demand of those on the bus. What happens to these people AT the stations?

Frustratingly this driver is also refusing to drop me off at a roundabout on the route to Chinley. Usually RRB drivers drop you where you want and are happy to comply with passenger demands, as if we haven't been inconvenienced enough by the lengthy bus journey? I'd have been at CLY at 2327 and in at 0000 in Chapel, I'm not looking at a 0040 at the earliest arrival through the door.

So who do these RRB services really run for? The passengers or the TOCs and the fact they have to stick them on?

Interesting to hear some thoughts because the bus goes to Chinley yet won't drop me off on route to the station 1.5 miles from it!

Tom

I agree it would be nice to get dropped at a stop away from the station since your service has been by disrupted although the TOC's can't be held to blame on this occassion, it's just one of them things what happens sometimes. All the stations in the Hope Valley have "Help points" fitted to them and they work all night so if a train doesn't show when your waiting you can press the button and speak to a real person at the other end and they will inform you of a delay etc... TOC's have to try and find a happy medium in these situations, i.e. you get on the train at Sheffield at and you should be in Chinley in 41 minutes on the local service, if the bus was to call at every station in the Hope valley I expect it would take double the time so its about trying to keep customers to some sort of schedule at the same time.

I can't see a problem with you getting dropped at the rounderbout at Chapel off the bypass (I live in Whaley Bridge and work at Chinley P-Way) but in this day and age people are terrified to do anything these due to the way society is!
Would the driver of the bus be held responsible if you had of been mugged and beat up on the way home because you should have been dropped at Chinley station?

Cheers
Billy

 

[Bevan Price]

Prize award to Virgin for 27/28 May 2013 rail replacements. According to the VT leaflet, for much of the weekend, Euston - Liverpool trains will terminate at / start from Crewe. Leaflet shows rail replacement buses operating in two sections, Crewe to Runcorn, and Runcorn to Liverpool. Buses (northbound & southbound) all shown as just failing to make forward connections at Runcorn, leaving passengers to wait about 50 minutes for the next bus forward from Runcorn.

Leaflet does mention that "another operator" (presumably LM) may also be providing buses, but gives no indication of times. How helpful can they get ?????

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You mean 25/26 May I think, though there is an amount of work taking place Monday morning also.

And atleast they have advertised it so that people can make alternative arrangements. Incidentally, LM are running buses Liverpool-Crewe and Crewe-Wolverhampton.

 

[sheff1]

From personal experience it would seem the way to get dropped off somewhere other than a station is to be female and wearing a short and/or low cut dress. For one passenger who qualified on all three accounts the bus even did a detour to make the drop.

Not qualifying myself, I was forced to travel past where I wanted to be and then walk back.

 

[Trog]

Being dropped off would be a luxury, on several of the rail replacement services I travelled on I ended up having to guide the driver from station to station.

 

[Antman]

However it is possible that someone could sue the company if involved in an accident allegedly caused by the bus dropping someone at an (allegedly again) unsafe location.

Highly unlikely

 

[cjmillsnun]

How on earth does it take a bus 3 minutes to drop of a passenger? Might do if it is travelling at speed but its more likely to be in a 30mph limit, so theres the time to slow from 30 to a stop, open doors, passenger jumps out, doors close and bus moves off. Although more frequently the doors are open by the time its stopped, and close as it is moving off.

Bus replacement services usually take a lot longer than the train so it seems only reasonable they should drop passengers where they want to be dropped as long as it is on the route. Ours usually do.

And if there is traffic on the roads (as there usually is) you have the wait for a safe gap in traffic, and the time taken to accelerate back to speed. Then you have the issue half a mile down the road of "driver can you stop here"... Much better to have a designated stop (a station on a RRB) where the bus is timed to stop.

 

[D1009]

The thing about replacement buses/coaches is that there is never a one size fits all solution. They are not subject to the same performance regimes as trains. Late at night when there are only a few people travelling I think coach drivers should be allowed discretion to drop people at any safe location on the scheduled route. Conversely if the coach is full, obviously the correct course of action is only to serve railway stations. This requires the coach drivers to make these decisions, which most of them are capable of doing.

 

[michael769]

Being dropped off would be a luxury, on several of the rail replacement services I travelled on I ended up having to guide the driver from station to station.

Been there. Done that!

 

[route101]

The thing about replacement buses/coaches is that there is never a one size fits all solution. They are not subject to the same performance regimes as trains. Late at night when there are only a few people travelling I think coach drivers should be allowed discretion to drop people at any safe location on the scheduled route. Conversely if the coach is full, obviously the correct course of action is only to serve railway stations. This requires the coach drivers to make these decisions, which most of them are capable of doing.

I did once get dropped off nearer my house on night on the East Kilbride rail replacement service . The driver did say hes not meant to do this.

There was a rail replacement service on the ek line today and it was a first bus and the driver at first was insisting on passengers having tickets .He changed his tune a few stops later . Back in March it was a a coach operator and everyone got a free ride so it seemed

 

[quarella]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trog View Post
Being dropped off would be a luxury, on several of the rail replacement services I travelled on I ended up having to guide the driver from station to station.
Been there. Done that!

My family were involved in the coach industry so let's take a scenario from about twenty years ago. Office lines diverted to our home. Station rings up mid evening meal wanting a coach to go Weston-super-Mare to Bristol. Get to station within 40 minutes to abuse from staff about how long it has taken to be told that it is now to go to Taunton. Get to Taunton to be asked to continue to Exeter. At Exeter a Barnstaple run was demanded and declined.

It has been a long time since I have driven a coach and if a small number of passengers and on the route I would drop off at bus stops/junctions etc but now I would be very loathe to drop people off other than at stations or recognised alternative stop. TOC trying to withold payment for failing to fulfill contract. Also how long would it be before someone travelling in an unfamiliar locality got off at the wrong location and this turned into "Bus driver forced me off ? miles from station" in the papers. Just not worth it. I am not entirely sure of the legalities but I am sure there are bus stops where it would be illegal to stop at unless on a registered service.

 

[CatfordCat]

The thing about replacement buses/coaches is that there is never a one size fits all solution. They are not subject to the same performance regimes as trains. Late at night when there are only a few people travelling I think coach drivers should be allowed discretion to drop people at any safe location on the scheduled route. Conversely if the coach is full, obviously the correct course of action is only to serve railway stations. This requires the coach drivers to make these decisions, which most of them are capable of doing.

The snag with this sort of 'discretion' is that people don't recognise it as a 'favour' when a driver does do something (or does it for someone else), and they then make one heck of a fuss when a driver doesn't do something (or doesn't do it for them) in a different set of circumstances.

<snip>

I am not entirely sure of the legalities but I am sure there are bus stops where it would be illegal to stop at unless on a registered service.

I've only seen a very few bus stops have that detailed a traffic regulation order on them - and then only in very central bits of central London. There are probably a few such restrictions in other city centres, but I'd say it's pretty rare.

As for the "it only takes a minute" argument that's been expressed a few times -

Yes, with a bus (rather than a coach) and a reasonably able-bodied passenger with no luggage, it won't add that many minutes to drop one passenger off, assuming it's not the sort of road where it will take a couple of minutes to get back in to the traffic flow again.

Once you get into the realms of coaches (even opening and closing the door on some coaches takes a while), and / or elderly and infirm passengers and / or passengers who have a push-chair or luggage in the luggage locker, an extra stop easily takes a few minutes.

But as others have said - if you're travelling to the remote terminus of the replacement service - and have a train connection when you get there - is it "good customer service" if 10 passengers all have special stops made for them and the coach ends up 20 minutes late and you end up missing your connection?

 

[Antman]

Most RRB have plenty of slack in the timetable and often end up waiting time at every station stop so a few seconds lost dropping off the occasional passengee between stops is hardly likely to matter.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Most RRB have plenty of slack in the timetable and often end up waiting time at every station stop so a few seconds lost dropping off the occasional passengee between stops is hardly likely to matter.

You must get all the drivers who know where they are going, In all the time I have seen RRBs at my station (more than five years), I could count on one hand the number that have arrived with more than a few minutes to spare and almost as many that have taken twice the scheduled time, though some of that is down to traffic and roadworks.

 

[PHILIPE]

I have always wondered if bus companites are "vetted" by TOCs prior to entering into a contract in the case of pre-planned disruption. It is not so easy for short notice emergencies. You hear of hideous stories of horrible buses and drivers who don't know the way properly. Apologies if this has been mentioned before in the thread but it has grown so much that I could have missed it.

 

[michael769]

My experience is that the overall standard is higher during planned replacements than short term ones.

 

[TUC]

It is surprising that there doesn't seem to be a standard franchise requirement to provide rail rrplacement services whenever regular services are disrupted and there is no rail alternative.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Replacement busses are normally well advertised well in advance so you an plan your day around that and catch an earlier train home.

I'm very sorry that the railways don't take your personal circumstances into consideration when planning essential maintenance work-have you considered writing to network rail and your local toc to inform them of your movements over the next few weeks so that they can plan the engineering work around you? If you need to avoid paying extra for a cab after an extended bus journey then they may be able to help, perhaps move the engineering work to 6-9 Tuesday morning instead? At least it won't inconvenience you that way.

Perhaps the bus should just take you straight home and miss out everyone else's station to avoid further delay to you? I mean its not like other people have homes to get to.

Why not go the whole hog. If your back garden backs onto the railway line then tell the driver where it is when you get on and he can stop and let you off there, we could do that for every passenger couldn't we?

Once again, please do accept my most heartfelt apologies on behalf of the industry I work for for making your life difficult. It's almost like it isn't your personal taxi service but public transport.

Or may I suggest that you buy a car as you are obviously too important to be made to catch a bus which has been advertised weeks in advance and pay the extra taxi fare.

And you are of course quite the funny man. You may believe that replacement bus services are well advertised, and they usually are for weekend engineering work, however in my experience they frequently are not for overnight work. For example the customer information screen is currently displaying warnings that a replacement bus service is in operation this weekend. Last time I found myself on a late night service that was replaced by a bus there was no similar warning at the station in the morning. There might be posters warning of this at the station but when do regular travellers actually look at the posters? They are normally rushing to stand in the right place on the platform so they can board the train.

If I am on a late night service I am on it because I have to be on it, therefore making alternative arrangements is not an option. The reality is if the replacement bus drops me at a location that is more convenient for me than the station then that is a bonus, its not something that I expect though. I really couldnt care less if the bus makes additional stops prior to arriving at my station because the extra time taken is negligible in the scheme of things.

And of course to suggest people expect a train to make additional stops is of course just remarkable stupid and puerile because everyone knows they cant stop anywhere. There is no physical reason why a bus can't make additional stops where it is safe to do so and if it benefits the passengers who have already been inconvenienced then why not? I certainly havent noticed people complaining when replacement buses I have been on have made additional stops.

It is of course a regular complaint by passengers that rail companies seem to forget that they are providing a service to their customers, and some answers in this thread seem to prove it.

The reality is that each case has to be taken on its own merits and circumstances fortunately in many cases the passengers and bus driver realise that and work together to provide a service with works for all.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry but I'm not getting drawn into an argument about rail companies providing a service to their 'customers' as it dosnt work like that I'm afraid.

Its a buyers market if you like. Rail companies wouldn't mind putting a few people off using some services as it would reduce overcrowding and increase satisfaction.

But it won't happen. People need the train more than the companies need people's ticket money.

Sorry to be harsh but if you feel that the service, bus or no bus, is poor then don't use the train any more and vote with your feet. Then they will need to improve things for their passengers to get them back. But as so many depend on trains to get to work that won't happen.

And I stand by every word of my last post-I'm sure it would be helpful to you if the bus dropped you off closer but it wouldn't help your fellow travellers. As for not reading posters at stations-whose fault is that?! What else can TOCs do? They often do use the info screens to relay this info but if people don't read notices then its not the railways fault. Perhaps they should approach every single passenger individually and fully brief them on engineering works etc?!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....You may believe that replacement bus services are well advertised, and they usually are for weekend engineering work, however in my experience they frequently are not for overnight work. For example the customer information screen is currently displaying warnings that a replacement bus service is in operation this weekend. Last time I found myself on a late night service that was replaced by a bus there was no similar warning at the station in the morning....

I recall a thread on this very forum debating the need to use the customer information/departure screens to show any information other than the departures. I believe the staff point was that it is a good place to put some information as people will look at it, while the passenger point of view seemed to be quite the opposite, that they didn't want to see this information as it didn't concern them and could mean they miss a train due to waiting for the information they want/need (yes, really!). I think the TOCs typically put up information on them when there is a larger proportion of affected travellers.

....There might be posters warning of this at the station but when do regular travellers actually look at the posters? They are normally rushing to stand in the right place on the platform so they can board the train....

This was the reason staff gave in the previous thread I mention, which was met with disbelief and disregarded as a stupid argument to make (posters are obvious, etc, etc). In reality, notices being there mean it is advertised and if people do not take a look it is hardly the fault of the TOCs, is it?

....I really couldnt care less if the bus makes additional stops prior to arriving at my station because the extra time taken is negligible in the scheme of things....

Ah, the return of the 'I'm alright jack' attitude, which is fine if your destination is a stop that the bus calls at, not so great if your destination is actually another train or bus away.

....I certainly havent noticed people complaining when replacement buses I have been on have made additional stops....

No, you probably haven't, I have, not on the bus, or even to the driver of the bus, but at the station when they discover the connecting train couldn't wait any longer for the bus......

....It is of course a regular complaint by passengers that rail companies seem to forget that they are providing a service to their customers, and some answers in this thread seem to prove it....

And what service do they provide? A door-to-door service? Or a station-to-station service?

....The reality is that each case has to be taken on its own merits and circumstances fortunately in many cases the passengers and bus driver realise that and work together to provide a service with works for all.

Well, not always apparently.....