Margaret Thatcher and the railways - complicated?

[Gareth Marston]

It also has to be remembered that a lot of Tory voters were commuters and/or lived in the Shires, so a Serpell like programme of closures wouldn't have been very astute politically, even in the early 1980's.

Its often said backbench Tory MP's knew of the plans to close their commuter lines before the Minister was briefed! So plenty of anecdotal evidence that someone or something played a very good pre-emptive political game. As one Tory MP said Serpell option A was electoral suicide.

Scargill would have given his right hand for an equivalent a Serpell Option A Map from the NCB which of course they never publicly leaked though of course it existed.

I suspect that the closure/mass restructuring medicine prescribed at the time was supported by the senior managers in the steel and coal industry etc but crucially not by BR's. Thatcher had the backing of the other industry's management so could tackle restructuring & the unions via them. The difference with Reshaping in the 60's was of course is had the backing of BR & its then Chairman Beeching. Parker wasn't going to close the railway. Also one of her early transport minsters "went native" Norman Fowler and supported the joint electrification programme proposals of 1981 much to the disgust of Ministry officials who were still hunting the profitable core.

By the time Serpell was shelved we then had the 83 election , then the 84/85 miners strike so by the time BR was possibly next going to be looked at in the mid 80's we had economic growth, BR had growing passenger numbers and BR came up with business focus and sectorisation reforms so effectively staved off any attention through a combination of factors

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Settle Carlisle line - Michael Portilo talks about saving it. GB Rail journeys BBC 3 7.30 tonight!

 

[jopsuk]

As far as the EC directive is concerned, it is always possible that Britain could have vetoed, otherwise blocked or even modified it. Why do people always forget that the UK is one of the most powerful forces in shaping European legislation?

Anyway, one factor of Thatcher's legacy for transport as a whole that affects the railways today was the deregulation of buses. This led to the rise of First, Go Ahead, Stagecoach, Arriva and National Express Group- the most significant companies in the history of rail privatisation.

 

[yorksrob]

Anyway, one factor of Thatcher's legacy for transport as a whole that affects the railways today was the deregulation of buses.

And in PTE areas (and probably other areas as well) it appears to have driven (no pun intended) a fair few people back onto the railway.

 

[Lampshade]

Settle Carlisle line - Michael Portilo talks about saving it. GB Rail journeys BBC 3 7.30 tonight!

Urgh, I see this post at 19:55

iPlayer it is.

 

[A0]

Electrification of the ECML, done under Thatcher and we're still paying for the penny pinching ...

Thank you for restating that particular urban myth.

There are others on these boards who were directly involved with said electrification who have regularly debunked this claim.

That some continue to peddle this myth is somewhat disturbing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A quick play with the ORR's Data Portal reveals that in financial year 97/98 Great Britain had 5166km of electrified track by financial year 09/10 this had increased to 5239km a total increase of 73km or 45 miles.

45 miles isn't very much - can probably be accounted for by in-fill schemes like Stoke - Crewe.

Like it or not, the Conservative party has been in power - and made the decisions on - a significant proportion of the mainline electrification which has taken place in this country.

The missed opportunity was by the Labour government which nationalised the railways, that didn't push forward electrification and instead ordered thousands of soon-to-be-obsolete steam locos.

 

[asylumxl]

Thank you for restating that particular urban myth.

There are others on these boards who were directly involved with said electrification who have regularly debunked this claim.

That some continue to peddle this myth is somewhat disturbing.

Head spans aren't cheaper?

45 miles isn't very much - can probably be accounted for by in-fill schemes like Stoke - Crewe.

Like it or not, the Conservative party has been in power - and made the decisions on - a significant proportion of the mainline electrification which has taken place in this country.

The missed opportunity was by the Labour government which nationalised the railways, that didn't push forward electrification and instead ordered thousands of soon-to-be-obsolete steam locos.

Whatever happened to the completion of HS1? I could swear I'd seen pylons on it..

 

[yorksrob]

Let's also not forget that during this period, the Conservative party could deal with a unified railway management which had both a clear strategic view of how the railways should develop, and the capacity to prioritise, propose and carry through major projects.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

She reputedly never travelled on a train during her spell as Prime Minister.

Not true - stuck in a blizzard in Bradford and on a packed train - she rode under supervision in the back cab of a DMU to Leeds.

A friend - ex ASM Crewe states he looked after , and the Labour voting railman who carried her bag stated he enjoyed a chat with her about his work and how her train was on time.

 

[Philip Elliott]

There were also a huge number of line and station (re)openings under the 1979-1997 Conservative Government, many (most?) of which took place outside the South East.

Paid for by Labour run councils / PTEs. The Leicester tram got nowhere because the council was expected to raise all the finance which it had no chance of.


There were a considerable number of lines closures during the '80s - particularly during the first half. The Thatcher government also operated a '2 for 3' policy of two new DMU vehicles for every three withdrawn which is a key cause of overcrowding now.

 

[12CSVT]

Paid for by Labour run councils / PTEs. The Leicester tram got nowhere because the council was expected to raise all the finance which it had no chance of.


There were a considerable number of lines closures during the '80s - particularly during the first half. The Thatcher government also operated a '2 for 3' policy of two new DMU vehicles for every three withdrawn which is a key cause of overcrowding now.

Especially a 2 car pacer for a 3 car Met - Camm

 

[Bald Rick]

.


There were a considerable number of lines closures during the '80s - particularly during the first half. The Thatcher government also operated a '2 for 3' policy of two new DMU vehicles for every three withdrawn which is a key cause of overcrowding now.

Now come on. Define 'considerable'. I can think of perhaps 5 passenger line closures in the decade, and 2 of those were for Metrolink.

And the 2 for 3 policy was a BR policy based on an expectation of improved reliability of the new trains, a change in capacity of the trains (eg no guards van), and the passenger numbers + growth expected nearly 30 years ago when the trains were ordered.

 

[Mikey C]

The Thatcher years do seem to have contained a surprisingly large rolling electrification programme, that for various reasons, fizzled out from the mid 90s onwards with the chaos of the privatized railway, the cost overruns of the WCML upgrade and Labour inactivity before Adonis.
ECML
Completion of Bedpan
St Albans Abbey
Cambridge (followed by King's Lynn)
Wessex electrics
Hastings
East Grinstead
Ayrshire Coast Line

Not bad for an 'anti rail' PM and government

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Now come on. Define 'considerable'. I can think of perhaps 5 passenger line closures in the decade, and 2 of those were for Metrolink.

Indeed. The only passenger line closure I'm aware of in the early 1980s is the Clayton West branch- one which only survived as long as it did to serve the collieries at Emley and Denby Grange (Clayton West), which subsequently closed after 'modernisation' turned them from amongst the most productive in West Yorkshire to amongst the least! The skeleton passenger service operated mainly to serve the school at Honley, but without the coal traffic there was no way this service alone could support the line, especially without WYPTE adoption which was ruled out when the PTE was formed.

The only other closure I can think of under Thatcher off the top of my head is Woodhead, which was freight-only anyway, though I think there were some 1980s closures in Scotland. Indeed going back to the Penistone line area, Penistone-Barnsley reopened in 1983 with the HUD-SHF services diverted via Barnsley- this resulted in increased journey times for the full run, but increased the catchment area for the service.

 

[Mikey C]

The Tunbridge Wells to Eridge line was one of the ones that closed in the 80s (and is now largely reopened as the heritage Spa Valley Railway)

 

[A0]

Also, Woodside to Selsdon, now part of Croydon Tramlink and Caledonian Jnc to Broad Street which has recently been reopened as part of the ELL.

Neither were particularly well used before they were closed.

 

[John07]

Indeed. The only passenger line closure I'm aware of in the early 1980s is the Clayton West branch- one which only survived as long as it did to serve the collieries at Emley and Denby Grange (Clayton West), which subsequently closed after 'modernisation' turned them from amongst the most productive in West Yorkshire to amongst the least! The skeleton passenger service operated mainly to serve the school at Honley, but without the coal traffic there was no way this service alone could support the line, especially without WYPTE adoption which was ruled out when the PTE was formed.

The only other closure I can think of under Thatcher off the top of my head is Woodhead, which was freight-only anyway, though I think there were some 1980s closures in Scotland. Indeed going back to the Penistone line area, Penistone-Barnsley reopened in 1983 with the HUD-SHF services diverted via Barnsley- this resulted in increased journey times for the full run, but increased the catchment area for the service.

The Kilmacolm line closed in 1983.

 

[swcovas]

Urgh, I see this post at 19:55

iPlayer it is.

You can find most of the Portillo progs on Youtube.

 

[gordonthemoron]

when was Peartree-Sinfin closed?

 

[Oswyntail]

when was Peartree-Sinfin closed?

Late '90s - 1998?

 

[Buttsy]

Passenger route closures in the 80s:

Balloch Pier
Kilmacolm
Paisley Canal
Woodside - Sandersted
Tunbridge Wells - Edrige
Rowntree Halt
Ardrossan Winton Pier (replaced closer to Ardrossan)
Boothferry Park
Broad Street - Dalston Junction
Lincoln St Marks route
Lea Bridge
New Holland Pier
Clayton West

As you will see, most of the routes closed were eitehr to excursion stations or to connect with ferries, so difficult to argue against closure if traffic had dropped off.

I would say that the biggest loss was Tunbridge Wells - Eridge as this offered connectivity without going through London or Hastings

 

[D1009]

when was Peartree-Sinfin closed?

Not sure when the last train actually ran as it became a "parliamentary" replacement taxi service which lasted (in theory) into the 2000s. It's still open for freight however.

 

[Buttsy]

Not sure when the last train actually ran as it became a "parliamentary" replacement taxi service which lasted (in theory) into the 2000s. It's still open for freight however.

1993 was teh last year of full operation I believe.

 

[High Dyke]

when was Peartree-Sinfin closed?

Did that route, as part of an East Mids Ranger; the evening service from Derby. Guard checked i was actually travelling to Sinfin, and back, before they switched all the saloon lights off before departing...as though they were hoping they could sneak out of Derby unnoticed.

 

[Philip Elliott]

There were a lot of freight routes that were formerly passenger lines closed during the '80s. Remember most 're-opened' lines still existed as freight routes.

Off the top of my head...

Swinton to Wakefield via Cudworth (closed to passengers and completely south of Cudworth)
Hadfield - Pensitone (1981)
Penistone - Deepcar (1983)
Deepcar - Woodburn Jn. (to passengers, 1983)
Silkstone Jn. - Cortonwood (1981)
Elsecar - Cortonwood - Wath (1983)
Wath - Mexborough (1989)
Saxilby - Torksey (1989)
Fledborough - Lincoln (1980)
Clipstone Colliery Jn. - Mansfield Crown farm (1989)
Mansfield - Rainworth (1983)
Bestwood Park - Newstead (1988) (since re-opened)
Beighton Jn - Staveley (1981)
Staveley - Arkwright Town (1985)
Duffield - Wirskworth (1989)
Newark - Bottesford (1988)
Moria - Measham (1981)
Loughborough - East Leake (now preserved)
Cheadle (Staffs) (1986)
Leekbrook Jn. - Oakamoor (1988) (now preserved)
Eggington Jn. - Mickleover (1989)
Market Harborough - Northampton (1981)
Drumgelloch - Edinburgh (1981) (since re-opened)
Stirling - Alloa (since re-opened)
Rugby - Marton Jn. (1986)
Marton Jn. - Long Itchington (1986)


Most of these routes were closed as a result of the combination of the destruction of industry, continued pressure on BR to cut costs and the 'profit guidelines' that stopped BR from taking low margin freight traffic.

The other big sin of that era is the 'R' Word - RATIONALISATION. Many of the expensive projects of the last decade has been to put back track removed during the 80s (such as Kettering - Harrowden Jn, Rugby - Brinklow).

 

[12CSVT]

Also the goods avoiding line at Carlisle closed in 1984 following a derailment which demolished a river bridge. Carlisle station has been a notorious bottleneck ever since.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Tunbridge - Eridge was lost to bring down the cost of the Hastings line electrification and layout replacement. It gave up its life for a good cause you could say.

Loadings were very , very low according to a friend who was a South Eastern Division relief Station Manager - who got very bored covering that patch (mind you - anyone would after the turmoil of London Bridge or Charing Cross !)

 

[yorksrob]

Tunbridge - Eridge was lost to bring down the cost of the Hastings line electrification and layout replacement. It gave up its life for a good cause you could say.

Loadings were very , very low according to a friend who was a South Eastern Division relief Station Manager - who got very bored covering that patch (mind you - anyone would after the turmoil of London Bridge or Charing Cross !)

I must admit, that definately seems like a sacrifice too far !

I understand that less pointwork and fewer signals will lower electrification costs, but in the case of the Hastings line. Surely similar savings have been achieved by extending the single line section through Strawberry Hill Tunnel to Grove Junction ? Down Eridge trains could have ran wrong line through the up platform at Tunbridge Wells Central, with down mainline trains using the down platform. Admittedly they would have had to have minimal staffing on the down side at Central, but I'm sure they could have absorbed that into a revenue budget somewhere !

 

[Yew]

I wonder if the apparent disinterest of the government at the time led to some of the better things happening, in comparison with the DFT putting their sticky fingers in everywhere.

 

[tbtc]

Drumgelloch - Edinburgh (1981) (since re-opened)

Re-opened east of Bathgate in the 1980s under Mrs Thatcher, so shall we criticise her for the closure and praise her for the reopening?