Are passengers required to pay by card from certain stations?

[Goatboy]

Yes, I think so, or certainly he should purchase a ticket for part of his journey.

Practically though this cannot be enforced because how do you prove somebody is carrying cash?

 

[island]

Even though train companies advertise that they will accept cards at stations?

I'm not sure they do, though doubtless it is in the back corner of some website somewhere.

Practically though this cannot be enforced because how do you prove somebody is carrying cash?

You'll note I said "should" rather than "must", mostly for this reason.

 

[34D]

Yes, I think so, or certainly he should purchase a ticket for part of his journey.

I've no evidence or sources either way, but if I have a credit card on me, and £200 which I am taking to go buy a car with, then I don't see that I am obliged to use cash which is earmarked for some other reason when I have a credit card with an available credit limit.

 

[jb]

Well obviously rules cannot be framed in terms of how the cash (or cards, or whatever) in peoples' wallets are "earmarked", so we might as well say "pay if you feel like it but not if you don't" and be done with it.

That is what all this theoretical wriggling about not paying adds up to. No more, no less.

 

[Yew]

This is a very worrying thread and I'm very suprised by some of the views in it. Personally this has never been an issue for me because I rarely carry cash and much prefer card but..

Its quite an interesting thread to me, as I'm almost the opposite, I generally pay by cash, unless I am buying something that I would take money out for. (for example I wouldnt take money out, then spend it all on petrol, I would pay by card)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've no evidence or sources either way, but if I have a credit card on me, and £200 which I am taking to go buy a car with, then I don't see that I am obliged to use cash which is earmarked for some other reason when I have a credit card with an available credit limit.

Have you read:

• Railway Byelaw 17
• Railway Byelaw 18
• National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 2
• National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 3
• National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 4

 

[island]

I've no evidence or sources either way, but if I have a credit card on me, and £200 which I am taking to go buy a car with, then I don't see that I am obliged to use cash which is earmarked for some other reason when I have a credit card with an available credit limit.

I haven't either, but I think you are

 

[MikeWh]

I haven't either, but I think you are

Well that is bonkers!

If I have £200 in cash to buy a car from a private individual (ie they can't accept any other payment method) and a credit card to pay for travel and I haven't got time to detour to a cash machine to replenish my balance before needing to complete the purchase, then the railway has effectively just lost my business if it can't provide the means to pay by card at a suitable time. In that exact situation I'd probably have to hire a taxi and hope it could go via a cash machine and still get to my vendor in time.

 

[island]

The fact that you need to specify such a limited set of circumstances speaks volumes.

 

[Goatboy]

The fact that you need to specify such a limited set of circumstances speaks volumes.

Not really, there are numerous reasons why you might not want to pay cash for rail tickets.

I *never* pay cash for rail tickets because, for example, I get 3% back from my credit card for paying by card.

 

[Flamingo]

I can never understand the number of posters in this forum, not to mention passengers at large, who would not dream of shoplifting or any other kind of theft, but seem to consider paying for their rail journey as some kind of optional extra that they will only do if it's not too much hassle.

If anybody goes into a shop, and for some reason the shop says "Cash only on this occasion", then leaving with the goods (even if they have a monopoly position) is NOT an option.

Why is the railway considered different? I am genuinely interested in the justification that people use for travelling without a ticket, and refusing to buy one if they consider it's too inconvenient to do so.

 

[Goatboy]

If anybody goes into a shop, and for some reason the shop says "Cash only on this occasion", then leaving with the goods (even if they have a monopoly position) is NOT an option.

Why is the railway considered different? I am genuinely interested in the justification that people use for travelling without a ticket, and refusing to buy one if they consider it's too inconvenient to do so.

Because there is an inherent difference between products and services? If you get to the tillpoint and it says 'Cash only' then its probably not a problem to go elsewhere. It also doesn't happen very often.

However when you need to travel somewhere and your ticket costs perhaps £50 then shrugging and going home often isn't quite the option it is when buying products.

I can never understand why posters on this forum love to compare apples with pears so often.

 

[bb21]

I can never understand why posters on this forum love to compare apples with pears so often.

I think it is an easy trap to fall in to depending on your point of view really.

It can be argued that no one is forcing you to travel in the circumstances you described. Not that I agree with it, but it can be argued.

Anyway that is side-stepping the real issue here.

There is no obligation that the passenger must pay by cash if they can with a cash-only TVM and vice versa. It is not enforceable anyway. The only way to end this is either to remove the free choice of payment, or make provisions for payment by any acceptable means at all stations with TVMs at all times, neither of which is going to happen any time soon.

 

[34D]

Because there is an inherent difference between products and services? If you get to the tillpoint and it says 'Cash only' then its probably not a problem to go elsewhere. It also doesn't happen very often.

However when you need to travel somewhere and your ticket costs perhaps £50 then shrugging and going home often isn't quite the option it is when buying products.

I can never understand why posters on this forum love to compare apples with pears so often.

And let's not forget that we are talking about the first of (often three, but usually at least) two opportunities to pay.

The railway gives the choice of payment method to the customer. I have in my wallet an unused 'box' on a Northern all-day voucher. I am certainly do not wish to use this to make a £2 journey just because someone on a forum can't differentiate between different types of "or":

You may pay by card or cash.

Interp 1: you must use either and be prepared to use either

Interp 2: you the customer has the choice.

I expect in the eyes of some on here, someone who has a company credit card is required to use that at a card only TVM even if it means risking a disciplinary.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And let's not forget that we are talking about the first of (often three, but usually at least) two opportunities to pay.

The railway gives the choice of payment method to the customer. I have in my wallet an unused 'box' on a Northern all-day voucher. I am certainly do not wish to use this to make a £2 journey just because someone on a forum can't differentiate between different types of "or":

You may pay by card or cash.

Interp 1: you must use either and be prepared to use either

Interp 2: you the customer has the choice.

I expect in the eyes of some on here, someone who has a company credit card is required to use that at a card only TVM even if it means risking a disciplinary.

Do any of the following contain the option for the passenger to pay for a ticket before travel from a station that has a card only or cash only TVM?

• Railway Byelaw 17
• Railway Byelaw 18
• National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 2
• National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 3
• National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 4

 

[Flamingo]

Because there is an inherent difference between products and services? If you get to the tillpoint and it says 'Cash only' then its probably not a problem to go elsewhere. It also doesn't happen very often.

However when you need to travel somewhere and your ticket costs perhaps £50 then shrugging and going home often isn't quite the option it is when buying products.

I can never understand why posters on this forum love to compare apples with pears so often.

Well then, answer the question in the first part of the post, why is it considered an optional extra to pay for the service received?

 

[radamfi]

How much is a reasonable amount of cash to carry around? Lots of return tickets cost over £100. Presumably even if you are collecting tickets you need to carry the amount of cash for a walk up fare in case the TVM isn't working and you have to claim back the cost from the retailer.

The Dutch have the opposite view and consider cash to be the payment of last resort. Many Dutch ticket machines are card only and the ones that aren't only take coins. You can't buy tickets on the train unless the TVM isn't working. Ticket offices accept notes but they charge a fee for the privilege.

 

[bb21]

The Dutch have the opposite view and consider cash to be the payment of last resort. Many Dutch ticket machines are card only and the ones that aren't only take coins. You can't buy tickets on the train unless the TVM isn't working. Ticket offices accept notes but they charge a fee for the privilege.

What happens when you only have cash on you and the TVM is card only? We can't simply adopt the Dutch model, or am I getting the wrong end of the schtick?

 

[Goatboy]

Well then, answer the question in the first part of the post, why is it considered an optional extra to pay for the service received?

It is not an 'optional extra' in the context of this discussion. How can it be an 'optional extra' if people are willing to pay a fare by one of the payment methods the railway advertises it accepts?

Nobody here considers paying for rail travel an optional extra.

 

[Flamingo]

There have been several posts of the "IF I have cash but want it for something else I'm not oblidged to spend it..." variety..

 

[Wolfie]

I can never understand the number of posters in this forum, not to mention passengers at large, who would not dream of shoplifting or any other kind of theft, but seem to consider paying for their rail journey as some kind of optional extra that they will only do if it's not too much hassle.

If anybody goes into a shop, and for some reason the shop says "Cash only on this occasion", then leaving with the goods (even if they have a monopoly position) is NOT an option.

Why is the railway considered different? I am genuinely interested in the justification that people use for travelling without a ticket, and refusing to buy one if they consider it's too inconvenient to do so.

I think this is an outragous post frankly.

I have not seen one poster on this thread (I am well aware there are lots of posters in the other fares thread who haven't bought tickets) who advocates not buying a ticket. I have however seen lots of posters who say that if the railway advertises certain means of payment as usable to purchase tickets then all of those means of payment should be routinely available to the passenger (everyone knows that mechines can break at times etc).

Lots of railway employees say that passengers should use a form of payment convenient to the TOC even if it is not convenient to them. Lets reverse the arguement - if a TOC can't be bothered to provide the means to use forms of payment which the railway publicly states can be used then in my view said TOC should be stripped of its franchise, no its, no buts. Simples.

 

[Goatboy]

There have been several posts of the "IF I have cash but want it for something else I'm not oblidged to spend it..." variety..

Yes but I read this to mean:

'If I have cash but want it for something else and the TVM is cash only, I should be entitled to buy on board using the guards Avantix Mobile and have this count as my first opportunity to pay' not 'I should get a free ride'.

 

[radamfi]

What happens when you only have cash on you and the TVM is card only? We can't simply adopt the Dutch model, or am I getting the wrong end of the schtick?

I would say it is more unreasonable to expect someone to carry around a large amount of cash compared to insisting on card payment. You need machines at all stations to adopt the Dutch system so until then cash should be accepted.

 

[jb]

Lets reverse the arguement - if a TOC can't be bothered to provide the means to use forms of payment which the railway publicly states can be used then in my view said TOC should be stripped of its franchise, no its, no buts. Simples.

I want to pay by Rail Travel Vouchers. I have a pocketful of cash and a wallet stuffed with credit cards, but I've decided RTVs are the thing for me. I want to board at some station on the Heart of Wales line (say). It has a working TVM which takes cash and cards.

Should ATW lose its franchise, no ifs, no buts, simples?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes but I read this to mean:

'If I have cash but want it for something else and the TVM is cash only, I should be entitled to buy on board using the guards Avantix Mobile and have this count as my first opportunity to pay' not 'I should get a free ride'.

The problem with this is that, unless all methods of payment are available at all stations at all times, any qualifier is always redundant, since the passenger can say "I wanted to use method X and it wasn't available" and should be taken at their word. Hence you're really saying:

I should be entitled to buy on board using the guards Avantix Mobile and have this count as my first opportunity to pay

for any situation where the passenger boards at a station without a fully operational ticket office. I understand that some can find that reasonable, but I just can't.

 

[Goatboy]

The problem with this is that, unless all methods of payment are available at all stations at all times, any qualifier is always redundant, since the passenger can say "I wanted to use method X and it wasn't available" and should be taken at their word.

This is fairly easy though because if you know the TVM is cash only and the customer says yea I wanted to pay by card and hands over cash its easy to see they were lying. If they hand over card then.. great! Sell them a ticket and everyone is happy?

It's not a widespread enough problem for this to be problematic. Only once in many years of travel have I not been able to use my preferred method of payment - I had RTV's and there was only a TVM. So I boarded without buying, nobody came round, so instead I simply handed over my RTV's at the booking office at my destination. Everyone was happy - I got to use my RTV's, I got sold the ticket I wanted and the TOC gained its revenue.

Common sense.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes but I read this to mean:

'If I have cash but want it for something else and the TVM is cash only, I should be entitled to buy on board using the guards Avantix Mobile and have this count as my first opportunity to pay' not 'I should get a free ride'.

That is the way I interpreted the comments also.

I want to pay by Rail Travel Vouchers. I have a pocketful of cash and a wallet stuffed with credit cards, but I've decided RTVs are the thing for me. I want to board at some station on the Heart of Wales line (say). It has a working TVM which takes cash and cards.

Should ATW lose its franchise, no ifs, no buts, simples?

I am presuming that the station in question does not have a ticket office since if it does there would be no problems with the use of RTVs. Unless there is any evidence that an ATW guard would not issue a ticket paid in full or part by an RTV in such a situation I do not see a problem. If they are refusing to do so then this opens a whole can of worms not least because in such circumstances RTVs would be absolutely useless to anyone who happened to live in such an area. I suspect there would then be pressure for Delay-Repay to be paid in cold hard cash, something the TOCs would absolutely hate!

I have to say that it would be particularly ironic, and incidentally an absolute PR own-goal, if TOCs tried to penalise people wishing to use RTVs when these are in the main issued as a result of previous TOC failings.

 

[Tibbs]

The Supermarket analogy is overused, but I think it works well here.

If I go to pay for my shopping, and due to a fault in the system none of the tills are accepting cards, I don't think it's unreasonable that the store asks me to pay by cash, by some other method, or put my shopping back on the shelves.

However, if I queue up at a checkout and that particular till has a fault and won't accept cards, I think it's reasonable that I'm allowed to take my shopping to another till. Likewise, if there's a till that's marked 'cash only' and I want to pay by card, I can choose go to another checkout and use my card there. At no point would the supermarket ask me to demonstrate that I had no cash when I changed queues and opted for the cash & cards checkout.

In my opinion, the TOCs are in the second scenario here, especially where there are services that have a conductor who can sell tickets and can accept different methods of payments to TVMs

 

[Goatboy]

It is also important to remember that the introduction of TVM's instead of manned ticket offices are a TOC choice - a fairly sensible choice, but as a result of this choice they must be prepared to accept that they cannot reduce a passengers choice to pay by a number of accepted methods, even if this means allowing them to pay on the train.

 

[michael769]

It is also important to remember that the introduction of TVM's instead of manned ticket offices are a TOC choice - a fairly sensible choice, but as a result of this choice they must be prepared to accept that they cannot reduce a passengers choice to pay by a number of accepted methods, even if this means allowing them to pay on the train.

Well they can. But they would need to substantially change their advertising!

 

[sheff1]

Do any of the following contain the option for the passenger to pay for a ticket before travel from a station that has a card only or cash only TVM?

• Railway Byelaw 17
• Railway Byelaw 18
• National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 2
• National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 3
• National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 4

Hmm, interesting.

Having re-read the above it seems that if you wish to travel from a station which has a card-only TVM and you have plenty of cash but no card then, if you board the train without a ticket you have commited a Byelaw offence and/or breached the NRCoC.