Are passengers required to pay by card from certain stations?

[Goatboy]

This is a very worrying thread and I'm very suprised by some of the views in it. Personally this has never been an issue for me because I rarely carry cash and much prefer card but..

cash is cash. If the customer wishes to pay by cash - irrespective of whether they hold 250 different credit cards - and the TVM will not accept cash and the ticket office is closed I can think of not a single valid reason why the full range of tickets should not be offered onboard the train.

The fact the TOC has not seen fit to open/locate a booking office or provide a TVM that accepts cash is not the fault of the customer and neither should it force the customer into either using a card they don't wish to use, or worse still not travel at all.

What does a customer who simply doesn't have a card with them do? Not travel? And you cannot possible prove either way whether they HAVE a card, therefore this whole debate seems bizarre.

 

[beeza1]

This is a very worrying thread and I'm very suprised by some of the views in it. Personally this has never been an issue for me because I rarely carry cash and much prefer card but..

I am exactly the opposite, I always carry cash, and don't carry my cards all the time, also I wouldn't dream of using a card for a purchase of anything less than £20.

 

[Goatboy]

I am exactly the opposite, I always carry cash, and don't carry my cards all the time, also I wouldn't dream of using a card for a purchase of anything less than £20.

And it should absolutely be your entitlement to do this without being forced to take a PF or an full fare ticket if you found a TVM which didn't accept cash.

 

[island]

This is down to customers choosing not to pay by an available method.

I would have more sympathy if RTVs were in question, as these can't be used elsewhere.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....If not, then any customer with an oyster card in his pocket (but wanting to pay cash) who boards at Crews Hill (zone 6, no machines, PFs don't apply) will be mandated to use his oyster even if wanting to buy a Crews Hill to Penzance return....

....And there's another key point. Clearly, TVMs can't sell the entire range of fares, it would be practically impossible to do so....

The NRCoC allows for situations where there are no facilities to buy the ticket required.

....cash is cash. If the customer wishes to pay by cash - irrespective of whether they hold 250 different credit cards - and the TVM will not accept cash and the ticket office is closed I can think of not a single valid reason why the full range of tickets should not be offered onboard the train....

If you board a train, without a ticket, at a station that has facilities to sell the ticket you require, train companies are not obliged to offer all fares (which is not to say that they won't sell them).

 

[Goatboy]

This is down to customers choosing not to pay by an available method.
.

Come off it. The payment method in question is cash - the most traditional and longstanding form of payment in the country. It's not somebody desperate to pay by some sort of obscure hardly accepted credit card or a Visa Electron or something.

If you board a train, without a ticket, at a station that has facilities to sell the ticket you require, train companies are not obliged to offer all fares (which is not to say that they won't sell them).

If you are paying cash, and it does not accept cash, then it does not have the facilities to sell you the ticket you require.

This is probably a complete non-issue as I doubt there is a guard in the land who wouldn't use common sense and sell you the ticket anyway, so all we are doing is having a WhatIf discussion anyway.

 

[island]

If you are paying cash, and it does not accept cash, then it does not have the facilities to sell you the ticket you require.

Yes it does. A CDR paid by cash is not a different ticket to a CDR paid by credit card.

I do agree we're getting to silly levels though.

 

[Goatboy]

Yes it does. A CDR paid by cash is not a different ticket to a CDR paid by credit card.

I do agree we're getting to silly levels though.

It is 100% impossible to sort the customers who genuinelly do not have a credit card from the customers who but don't want to use it, so practically speaking I cannot see how cash on the train can be refused or only accepted for a full price ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....If you are paying cash, and it does not accept cash, then it does not have the facilities to sell you the ticket you require....

If you only had cash, I doubt a TOC would have an issue with you buying onboard (though technically a 'card only' TVM is a facility to issue tickets).

If you had a card with funds and did not use the 'card only' TVM for no reason other than you preferred to use cash, then there is a facility to issue the ticket.

 

[island]

I agree with HHF. (That's twice today!)

 

[bnm]

Nobody but oneself (unless you volunteer the information) knows whether you have a card or not. Nobody but oneself needs to know how you wish to pay.

So if cash is offered on board, or at interchange/destination when travelling from a card only TVM station then it should be accepted without further question or sanction. None of this tosh about a compulsion being placed on a passenger to use a card because that is the only facility the TOC is offering them.

NRCoC refers to facilities in full working order. A machine capable of accepting cash but which has that function disabled, is not in full working order.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I agree with HHF. (That's twice today!)

Are you feeling okay? Too many 'beef' burgers perhaps?

 

[Goatboy]

If you only had cash, I doubt a TOC would have an issue with you buying onboard

So there we go.

If you had a card with funds and did not use the 'card only' TVM for no reason other than you preferred to use cash, then there is a facility to issue the ticket.

This is irrelevent because only the passenger and his bank know whether he has a card with funds. Are you suggesting some sort of full body search before accepting cash to make sure there isn't a Mastercard tucked away?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....NRCoC refers to facilities in full working order. A machine capable of accepting cash but which has that function disabled, is not in full working order.

Maybe (though we would have to define 'full working order'), but if the 'card only' TVM in question does not have cash collecting or dispensing equipment, making them incapable of taking cash payments, they would be in full working order unless it was unable to issue tickets and/or take card payments.

....This is irrelevent because only the passenger and his bank know whether he has a card with funds....

Unless the passenger happens to mention it.....

....Are you suggesting some sort of full body search before accepting cash to make sure there isn't a Mastercard tucked away?

I have suggested nothing in that quote, I have simply stated fact.

 

[yorkie]

I know what Northern's policy is: If you wish to pay by cash then you can do so. If there is no method to pay by cash from your origin you may buy on the train.

The issue seems to be not that the policy is in dispute but whether or not a passenger could still be considered liable.

 

[bnm]

Maybe (though we would have to define 'full working order'), but if the 'card only' TVM in question does not have cash collecting or dispensing equipment, making them incapable of taking cash payments, they would be in full working order unless it was unable to issue tickets and/or take card payments.

I've yet to see a fully 'card only' TVM as the only facility. All I ever see at stations that are unstaffed or whose ticket office is closed is a full TVM with the facility to accept cash disabled. Sometimes by means of nothing more than black and yellow tape over the coin and note slots. Other times with nothing to say 'card only' just set to reject cash. That IMO is not in full working order.

If cash is proffered by someone who has boarded at a station with a card only TVM, it should be accepted on the full range of tickets with any eligible discount. Full stop. Why do staff have to (or feel the need to) question someone to ascertain whether they have a card? They are not avoiding a fare. The earliest opportunity they have to pay their fare, in the method they wish to use, is on board or at interchange/destination. The ticket requested should be sold and the staff member move on to the next punter.

[cynic]Unless of course that staff member is hoping to trip up the passenger, get them to admit they have a card and then ching them for a full undiscounted fare along with its increased commission.[/cynic]

 

[30907]

Somewhere I've read a T&C relating to availability of discounted fares on-train which specifically refers to "an open ticket office or TVM accepting cash."

That suggests - as does common sense - that there can be no requirement to pay by card (other than in an internet transaction), nor penalty for choosing to pay in cash.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've yet to see a fully 'card only' TVM as the only facility. All I ever see at stations that are unstaffed or whose ticket office is closed is a full TVM with the facility to accept cash disabled. Sometimes by means of nothing more than black and yellow tape over the coin and note slots. Other times with nothing to say 'card only' just set to reject cash. That IMO is not in full working order....

Tbh I can't say I have ever taken much notice of them (as they don't issue PRIV tickets), but I think the Parkeon 'card only' TVMs at Northern's unmanned stations do not have the coin or note slots.

....If cash is proffered by someone who has boarded at a station with a card only TVM, it should be accepted on the full range of tickets with any eligible discount. Full stop. Why do staff have to (or feel the need to) question someone to ascertain whether they have a card? They are not avoiding a fare. The earliest opportunity they have to pay their fare, in the method they wish to use, is on board or at interchange/destination. The ticket requested should be sold and the staff member move on to the next punter....

Proffered? or Preferred? I would expect only regular passengers (or semi regular) to proffer cash before knowing the fare (though I accept there will be exceptions), but then they should know the machine is card only.

Which actually brings me to the "avoiding a fare" comment, why do 'people' assume no-one is attempting to avoid paying a fare when there is no evidence of that? How exactly do you know "they" have no intention to avoid paying the fare? Sure, you could say YOU would not be avoiding the fare and we could only take your word for it, but what of someone else? What of me? Could you say for definite that I would not be attempting to avoid paying the fare? Maybe I would have the cash in case the guard comes round, but would otherwise not bother buying a ticket even if I had a card with the funds for the ticket? Could you say I wouldn't do that?

Somewhere I've read a T&C relating to availability of discounted fares on-train which specifically refers to "an open ticket office or TVM accepting cash."

That suggests - as does common sense - that there can be no requirement to pay by card (other than in an internet transaction), nor penalty for choosing to pay in cash.

Northern's Passenger's Charter notes:

"..... If the ticket machine is not working, or you cannot use the machine, or the ticket office is closed, you must buy a ticket from the conductor on the train at the earliest opportunity. If you board a train without a ticket at a station where ticket purchasing facilities are available the conductor will only sell you the full price single or return fare and you will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms which would otherwise apply. Where fraudulent travel is involved it is our policy to seek criminal prosecution. ...."

Others may vary.

 

[Tracky]

After a long day I may be repeating views already made by others but here is my 2p (in cash)



On one of our minor lines we saw a rise in cards used (almost always declined) as its a pay on the train route.

We asked if a minimum spend could be set to force people to pay cash as most fares are only a couple of pounds.

We were told that as an ATOC member ticket retailer we were obliged to accept the full range of methods of payment including all cards except those marked "Electronic Use Only".

So to me the answer to this question is the railway is obliged to accept the full range of methods of payment including cash so long as the passenger purchases at the first possible opportunity.

I would add that if somebody has a warrant or travel voucher they should also be able to buy on board. Vouchers are a problem already at understaffed stations over-reliant on TVM's.



Also. I personally never use my cards day to day. I would not be happy if 'forced' to pay by card.

 

[maniacmartin]

As I commented on a previous similar thread, I think the move by the banking industry to rebrand Visa Electrons as Visa Debit cards, often without marking them "Electronic Use only" when they are online-auth only, is a real problem.

If there ever is a successor to Avantix Mobile, I'd hope it would be able to support such cards where a GSM signal is available. A new model of TVM that deposits cash in a more secure locked box similar to on a PERTIS machine would also be a good idea, as long as it was clearly marked No Change Given. It could potentially print an RTV-style coupon on common orange RSP stock for the amount overpaid (if any), similar to how some TVMs do today if they have no change

Like previous posters, I believe the full range should be made available on board if a card-only TVM was the only previous opportunity and the passenger wishes to pay by cash, but I'm not sure if the rules and legislation guarantees passengers that right.

 

[Tom B]

I wouldn't say that the possession of a bit of plastic in your wallet means you are obliged to use it if there are funds in the account.

I have a personal credit card, but if I put a fare on that rather than paid it by cash, it would cost me more through interest.
Likewise, say I have a company credit card, which has my name on it. It might be argued I could pay with that - but I doubt my employers would be too happy.

 

[island]

As I commented on a previous similar thread, I think the move by the banking industry to rebrand Visa Electrons as Visa Debit cards, often without marking them "Electronic Use only" when they are online-auth only, is a real problem.

If there ever is a successor to Avantix Mobile, I'd hope it would be able to support such cards where a GSM signal is available. A new model of TVM that deposits cash in a more secure locked box similar to on a PERTIS machine would also be a good idea, as long as it was clearly marked No Change Given. It could potentially print an RTV-style coupon on common orange RSP stock for the amount overpaid (if any), similar to how some TVMs do today if they have no change

Like previous posters, I believe the full range should be made available on board if a card-only TVM was the only previous opportunity and the passenger wishes to pay by cash, but I'm not sure if the rules and legislation guarantees passengers that right.

I agree entirely with this post.

I do have a device which can identify cards that are online-only. Visa is apparently trying to phase out the Electron scheme.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I've yet to see a fully 'card only' TVM as the only facility. All I ever see at stations that are unstaffed or whose ticket office is closed is a full TVM with the facility to accept cash disabled. Sometimes by means of nothing more than black and yellow tape over the coin and note slots. Other times with nothing to say 'card only' just set to reject cash. That IMO is not in full working order.

Stteton & Silsden has a card only TVM and nothing else.

Fortunately never had any trouble getting tickets on the train. Conductors treat the station as unmanned.

 

[34D]

Stteton & Silsden has a card only TVM and nothing else.

Fortunately never had any trouble getting tickets on the train. Conductors treat the station as unmanned.

I think that bnm's point is that the machines (such are at Steeton) are available from the Parkeon factory with a cash slot, or with this blanked off.

He is postulating that because northern haven't availed themselves of the cash module that the machine isn't in full working ordee.

I agree with him I think

 

[Starmill]

I've yet to see a fully 'card only' TVM as the only facility. All I ever see at stations that are unstaffed or whose ticket office is closed is a full TVM with the facility to accept cash disabled. Sometimes by means of nothing more than black and yellow tape over the coin and note slots. Other times with nothing to say 'card only' just set to reject cash. That IMO is not in full working order.

Never seen that. Know at least one stations with booking office weekday mornings only and CARD-ONLY TVM. No cash slot.

Just read HHFs post - "Parkeon" - that's the word I'm looking for! And yes, those were the stations I was thinking of.

 

[island]

Do TVMs still come with a blinking light for when they are not fully in order and accepting all usual payment methods?

 

[headshot119]

What about a station with a TVM that only accepts cash and not card, would a customer carrying cash be expected to pay with cash, even if they wanted to pay by card ?

 

[island]

What about a station with a TVM that only accepts cash and not card, would a customer carrying cash be expected to pay with cash, even if they wanted to pay by card ?

Yes, I think so, or certainly he should purchase a ticket for part of his journey.

 

[sarahj]

One of our stations, Mouselcombe, only takes cards, as when we filled it up with cash, some nice person would try and empty it for us each night. Those that come up to me and pay by cash from this station, i have no problem with.

 

[michael769]

Yes, I think so, or certainly he should purchase a ticket for part of his journey.

Even though train companies advertise that they will accept cards at stations?