Are passengers required to pay by card from certain stations?

[b0b]

Let me see if I can figure this out.

If you want to pay by cash, then if the "first opportunity" to pay by cash is the "first opportunity" to pay, regardless if you had previous opportunities to pay using another method (ie card only TVMs)

I don't think you can possibly consider a "cash payer" as a fare avoider, simply because they are in possession of a credit card.

But I can't imagine a prosecution should be successful because a passenger offers cash for a fare willingly at the first opportunity but the guard sees a credit card as the cash is being pulled out of a wallet.

Obviously a guard has a sense of who is trying it on, and if they get the them to admit they were using "cash" as the excuse to avoid payment, its a different story.

If the TOC doesnt want to have cash fares paid on the train, then they can simply provide facilities before boarding the train.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd say yes.

Let's suppose you wanted to pay with notes ( as you wanted to save your change for a vending machine), and the machine would only accept coins? Would you be right in not paying as you could not use the method you wanted to?

I'd say the scenario is comparable, you have the means to pay, the TOC is offering you a means to buy a ticket. You chose not to buy despite having the means to.

I think there's two key difference here a coin only machine is almost always accompanied by a change machine which would allow you to get more change if you have notes. The exception would be permit to travel machines but you're not under obligation to put all your coins in to one of them.

A card only machine is never accompanied by a bank cashier who then allows you to put the transaction value back on to your card.

 

[bb21]

The exception would be permit to travel machines but you're not under obligation to put all your coins in to one of them.

You are supposed to put as much as you can in towards your fare.

 

[transmanche]

I think there's two key difference here a coin only machine is almost always accompanied by a change machine which would allow you to get more change if you have notes.

Sadly not on the T&W Metro. Thankfully nearly all stations have now (at last!) had their ticket machines replaced with ones that can accept notes and cards.

The exception would be permit to travel machines but you're not under obligation to put all your coins in to one of them.

You are supposed to put as much as you can in towards your fare.

However I have been told on a number of occasions by on-board staff to only put in a token amount (e.g. 50p or £1) as "the machines are so unreliable".
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There are some specific differences though. I've been making occasional journeys on the Tyne & Wear Metro for a very many years now. Until recently, the only way to pay for Metro tickets was with coins (The machines did not accept notes or cards). Those were the breaks and everybody knew it. You always ensured you had a pocketful of poind coins, otherwise you couldn't take the train.

Going off on a tangent, the T&W Metro situation is unique in that the ticket machines could only accept a certain number of coins in total and a maximum of 8 or 9 coins of the same type. This was only indicated on the machines relatively recently.

In addition, the rules of the Nexus Penalty Fare scheme specifically stated that authorised collectors had the discretion not to charge a PF (but just the fare due for the journey taken) if the passenger had enough money (or the means to pay, e.g. a debit/credit card), but just not the correct coins to use the machine.

Source: Nexus Penalty Fare scheme

 

[northwichcat]

You are supposed to put as much as you can in towards your fare.

What if you don't have any idea on the fare or are unaware of a cheaper ticket valid for your journey?

For instance, in the Northern area you might not be aware of Evening Return or Duo tickets as most online ticket selling sites don't show them.

 

[bb21]

What if you don't have any idea on the fare or are unaware of a cheaper ticket valid for your journey?

For instance, in the Northern area you might not be aware of Evening Return or Duo tickets as most online ticket selling sites don't show them.

My answer is the official line for general situations. You might want to ask the train company or ATOC what to do in those circumstances you mentioned. There are various ways fares can be found, such as using help points if available.

Putting in 5p is probably taking the pee if you wish to pay by cash, but technically OK if that is all you have and wish to pay by card. All depends on the circumstance.

 

[northwichcat]

Putting in 5p is probably taking the pee if you wish to pay by cash

Being a bit pedantic if you're fare was £10.05, you have correct change - formed of a £10 note a 5p coin and it's coins only allowed in the machine then I would think putting the 5p in would be the best course of action.

 

[bb21]

Being a bit pedantic if you're fare was £10.05, you have correct change - formed of a £10 note a 5p coin and it's coins only allowed in the machine then I would think putting the 5p in would be the best course of action.

Hence my words, "All depends on the circumstance".

 

[BrownE]

I recently asked both FGW and Chiltern this question, both were reasonably careful about how they responded.

On behalf of Chiltern, my response was from Chad Collins, Head of Stations:

1. We do not consider a Card only TVM to consitute a "TVM in working order" for the purpose of ticketless travel. We consider a TVM in working order only if it can accept all forms of payment.

FGWs response (by Michael Keeber; Economic Crime, Fraud and Legal Assurance) is a little overly complex to post on here and would involve me divulging exactly what I asked along with sensitive information; in short it depends on the questioning style of the individual officer, you may be prosecuted for the Byelaw offence regardless of your intent.

 

[bicbasher]

On the occasions I've had to use Permit to Travel which is going back to 2006/07 at Erith when it always seemed the TVM was out of order and the ticket office closed, I'd put in 10p and then pay the difference with cash at the 'Fares to Pay' booth at London Charing Cross for a single or a Z1-6 travelcard. I never had any problems from RPI's when doing this.

In those days, I had the now defunct Solo debit card which wasn't valid from those stations, although Southern accepted them.