GEML Capacity Study - possible new locos and Mk3 refurbishment?

[jon0844]

Surely a major refurbishment could address ALL the issues and be cheaper than new stock - and probably done quicker too.

There are other benefits, like possibly not requiring any new training for drivers.

I am not against building new stock, but let's get the most from existing stock too.

 

[D365]

Exactly! Yayayay!! !!!

 

[MCR247]

Surely a major refurbishment could address ALL the issues and be cheaper than new stock - and probably done quicker too.

There are other benefits, like possibly not requiring any new training for drivers.

I am not against building new stock, but let's get the most from existing stock too.

Especially when its EMUs!

 

[badassunicorn]

As said before, I think the 321's just need modernisation! They are amazingly good at what they do but they are tatty and horrible inside and out and could do with more of a spring in their step!

 

[shaun]

What the 321s need is an internal refub. like Connex did way back in the 90s to a few of their 319s. It is a shame none of the other 319s or 321s were done like that, as they all basically have the same interior. Then they'll be suitable for another 10-15 years. The Mk3s also just need to be 'Chilternised'.

 

[D365]

What the 321s need is an internal refub. like Connex did way back in the 90s to a few of their 319s. It is a shame none of the other 319s or 321s were done like that, as they all basically have the same interior. Then they'll be suitable for another 10-15 years. The Mk3s also just need to be 'Chilternised'.

And AC motors as are being planned in tandem for another reported 10 years on top of that.

 

[IanXC]

cough317/7orPretendolinocough - latter to release 2x321 on Norwich fasts...

I'm looking forward to the refurbs for sure

The Pretendolino rake could initially also provide the spare to enable the refurbishment to take place. Once in service the 321s (or which ever stock is released, perhaps 317s could be released?) could relatively quickly be added to the cascade list for the North West.

 

[D365]

The Pretendolino rake could initially also provide the spare to enable the refurbishment to take place. Once in service the 321s (or which ever stock is released, perhaps 317s could be released?) could relatively quickly be added to the cascade list for the North West.

Take back the 317/7s and the FCC 317/1s and release an bunch of 321s, 360s and/or 315s after Thameslink/Crossrail and Mk3 refurbs - the latter remaining fleet I would have follow their PEP siblings wherever. I have big plans

 

[tbtc]

Would it make more sense to release the 321s and replace them on the GEML with corridor connected stock (since they spend a lot of time working in multiple)?

A four coach 321 would be fine for most of the newly electrified local routes around Manchester/ Cardiff etc.

 

[jopsuk]

There's not really much of an issue with non-corridor-connected stock working in multiple. Almost every local TOC around London has such stock- GA also have the 360s, c2cs fleet is entirely 357s, FCC have 365s, 321s and 319s, LM have 321s, Chiltern's 165, 168 and 172 fleets, FGWs 165, 166 and 180s, Southern's 455s and 456s, SE's 465, 466 and 376 fleets. Heathrow Connect and Express use non-corridor connected units. LO only use single units, and at SWT, the connection on 455s and 458s is for crew use only.

To replace the 321s with something with corridor connections, you'd need 94 new units- 376 carriages. If the connection was the reason you were doing it, you'd need a further 21 units/84 carriages to replace the 360s.

(noticably, if you swapped the 360s to FCC and LM for their 321s, you'd only be one unit short at GA- which would probably OK on fleet-use. Could probably get the ones that went to LM converted to have 350 cabs. You'd need a damn good refurb of the 321s to keep the likes of Ginger from exploding though)

 

[tbtc]

There's not really much of an issue with non-corridor-connected stock working in multiple. Almost every local TOC around London has such stock

True, but a lot of that working is for historical reasons, rather than because it's ideal.

Most new stock is built with corridor connections (apart from the 360s), which suggests that it is beneficial.

I only made the suggestion as this would be a benefit to both the GEML and to several newly electrified lines (where a single 321 would probably be sufficient for the demand).

 

[ginger]

You'd need a damn good refurb of the 321s to keep the likes of Ginger from exploding though)

unlike the cheap, nasty, unprofessionally carried out and poorly fitted "minor interior" refresh Clacton Depot and GA Abelio management are trying to fob off as a full blown refurbishment!

They really do treat Customers like fools.......

 

[D365]

There's not really much of an issue with non-corridor-connected stock working in multiple. Almost every local TOC around London has such stock- GA also have the 360s, c2cs fleet is entirely 357s, FCC have 365s, 321s and 319s, LM have 321s, Chiltern's 165, 168 and 172 fleets, FGWs 165, 166 and 180s, Southern's 455s and 456s, SE's 465, 466 and 376 fleets. Heathrow Connect and Express use non-corridor connected units. LO only use single units, and at SWT, the connection on 455s and 458s is for crew use only.

To replace the 321s with something with corridor connections, you'd need 94 new units- 376 carriages. If the connection was the reason you were doing it, you'd need a further 21 units/84 carriages to replace the 360s.

(noticably, if you swapped the 360s to FCC and LM for their 321s, you'd only be one unit short at GA- which would probably OK on fleet-use. Could probably get the ones that went to LM converted to have 350 cabs. You'd need a damn good refurb of the 321s to keep the likes of Ginger from exploding though)

Corridor connections aren't a real necessity. And 360s can be converted to 350s by adding gangways. GN won't need 317s or 321s post-700/IEP (if the latter is going ahead for Cambridge fasts/King's Lynn) - not sure about how many 365s, depends on service levels.

As I said, take back the 317/7s and the FCC 317/1s and release an bunch of 321s, 360s and/or 315s after Thameslink/Crossrail and Mk3 LHCS/EMU refurbs.

 

[anthony263]

Take back the 317/7s and the FCC 317/1s and release an bunch of 321s, 360s and/or 315s after Thameslink/Crossrail and Mk3 refurbs - the latter remaining fleet I would have follow their PEP siblings wherever. I have big plans

Do tell us about your plans.

I suppose a good refurbishment the class 315's could last til at least 2028.

Class 321's would be ideal for use on electric services between Cardiff & Bristol TM/Bath Spa.

Maybe some could be used on a Bristol - Oxford service

 

[D365]

Take back the 317/7s and the FCC 317/1s and release an bunch of 321s, 360s and/or 315s after Thameslink/Crossrail and Mk3 refurbs - the latter remaining fleet I would have follow their PEP siblings wherever. I have big plans

Do tell us about your plans.

I suppose a good refurbishment the class 315's could last til at least 2028.

Class 321's would be ideal for use on electric services between Cardiff & Bristol TM/Bath Spa.

Maybe some could be used on a Bristol - Oxford service

Righty'ho then

Take the ex-FN 317s, 319s and 321s spare (at least for a moment), as well as the (8) 317/7s. Loan those in best condition to TOCs to cover for their own Mk3 EMU fleets. Refurbish them all to the standard of 317722 with new interior and Bombardier AC traction for commonality. Although, this is slightly complicated by the 116+140 order, which will probably produce another Electrostar variant for Thameslink to release 319s.

Complete the 317722 trial and begin refurbishing 319s as they are taken off Thameslink, replaced by 377/7s and subsequently 700s. Release to newly electrified lines as they are done, i.e. GW/Wales and North. Work on Anglia 317s/321s and Northern 321s/322s in between. All 377s 'return' to the Southern region and BML/GX post-700, to produce an internal cascade resulting in the replacement of the 313 and 442 fleets, and 455 if possible.

When these refurbishments are complete, Crossrail 345s should have taken over Shenfield Metro from 315s. To replace these, and possibly the GE/HC 360s in Anglia, move and return ex-GN 317/1s and ex-SX 317/7s (entire class presumably reclassified as one or two subclass types depending on new interior) and make up any eventual shortfall on WAML or GEML with ex-GN/Midland 321s.

360s are refreshed, gangwayed, 110mph'd and/or shortened if required, to replace the WCML 321s as 350s (effectively a partial swap with Anglia) and possibly also to SW as 450s. Additional 350s/450s could be built integrating HC 5th cars. 315s, as well as 313s, 314s, 318s, 320s and possibly those Southern Mk3s which are to be retained in service, also refurbished and cascaded as required; examples of the former two PEPs may move to Wales or similar. I omit the 507s and 508s on Merseyrail as replacement plans are progressing.

Pretendolino could join LHC siblings on GEML fasts with a long-term hire loco.

There will obviously be further repercussions along the cascade chain which I have not gone into. Undoubtedly having strolled off the original topic, please let me know what you think.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Do you have some interior photos of 317722? I've never seen any

 

[D365]

There must be a few out there, but if you mean after the refurb, it's only starting later this year.

 

[AndyLandy]

Pretendolino could join 90+Mk3+DVT LHC siblings on GEML Norwich fasts.

I don't believe there's a locomotive with the Pretendolino set? I was under the impression that one was spot-hired for the services it ran. It wouldn't surprise me if there's other Mk3 stock available, it's just finding the locomotives to haul it.

 

[Pugwash]

A class 90 broke down at Chelmsford today causing absolute chaos, according to the Station announcer another unit also broken down at Hatfield Peveral.

 

[iphone76]

A metro also broke down at Romford earlier this morning.

The GA board is a lovely shade of red at the moment. It hasn't been the best couple of weeks on the GEML. (Again).

 

[glbotu]

Related Question: What's going to happen on the Great Northern services out of King's Cross? Thameslink is going to take some of them, right? Is that going to free up some 365s, which could be put to use on GEML? Or am I looking too far ahead?

 

[jopsuk]

Things are not set in stone. There will be Thameslink services along the GN, yes- for Cambridge it look like these will replace the current semi-fast and "stopping" services, with the fast services still going to Kings Cross. The faster peterborough services are still likely to go to Kings Cross too. There's a possibility the Cambridge and Peterborough fast services may be operated by five-carriage IEP commuter sets.

So, the 317s and 321s at FCC will definitely be freed up by Thameslink. The 365s will either be freed up or services will be further strenghthend- anyone claiming to know for sure the fate of the 365 fleet is telling porkies.

 

[D365]

Those last few posts weren't very relevant, but in regards to the 365's future, I couldn't give a better answer than that above! Although I can't see any place for then on GEML when EMUs identical to those existing will be available.

 

[fgwrich]

Those last few posts weren't very relevant, but in regards to the 365's future, I couldn't give a better answer than that above! Although I can't see any place for then on GEML when EMUs identical to those existing will be available.

Personally id love to see them gain a good refurbishment, and be sent over for use on the Great Western. Good units, and fairly easy for FGW to maintain them alongside any retained Networker Turbo units. And course they should be already cleared... Won't happen of course, that's far toooo sensical.

 

[D365]

Personally id love to see them gain a good refurbishment, and be sent over for use on the Great Western. Good units, and fairly easy for FGW to maintain them alongside any retained Networker Turbo units. And course they should be already cleared... Won't happen of course, that's far toooo sensical.

We'd definitely enjoy a good refurb - I hear the mid-life is starting soon? But don't expect us to let go so easily. I doubt they actually have much in common with the Turbos, aside from the name :P

 

[Dave1987]

A class 90 broke down at Chelmsford today causing absolute chaos, according to the Station announcer another unit also broken down at Hatfield Peveral.

It had an ADD, so failed straight away.

 

[Pugwash]

It had an ADD, so failed straight away.

ADD ? Please kindly advise what this means

 

[captainbigun]

Automatic Dropping Device.

I assume, as I know that the NC 90s suffer, it was carbon damage. It's that time of the year.

 

[dk1]

Log entry...

90013 Mid. Unit NC05 Rear Unit 82127

1P01 reported an ADD and that he had a chip out of his pan. SDM reported that the pan was down and that a thunderbird would be needed to rescue the set. 1P01 stopped between Arbour Lane and Chelmsford.

Unable to rescue with the 47 as there was a fault with this. 1P03 to terminate at Colchester, set to go into the loop to detach loco, this to go forward to rescue 1P01.

 

[Dave1987]

Log entry...

90013 Mid. Unit NC05 Rear Unit 82127

1P01 reported an ADD and that he had a chip out of his pan. SDM reported that the pan was down and that a thunderbird would be needed to rescue the set. 1P01 stopped between Arbour Lane and Chelmsford.

Unable to rescue with the 47 as there was a fault with this. 1P03 to terminate at Colchester, set to go into the loop to detach loco, this to go forward to rescue 1P01.

Yeah and it was one of the worse places to have an ADD activation, especially during the peak. Caused many many hundreds of delay minutes. They had to shut Chelmsford station due to overcrowding.