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GEML Capacity Study - possible new locos and Mk3 refurbishment?

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armrail

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Found this interesting report on how to improve the GEML. Highlights include:


http://www.newanglia.co.uk/Assets/Files/Content/GEML%20Capacity%20Study%20-%20Final%20Report%20-%20V1.5%20%2830-10-2012%29.pdf

Extracts from the GEML Capacity Study document said:
Rolling Stock

Introduction
The GEML Capacity Study Interim Report identified that the replacement of rolling stock, for inter-city and outer commuter services is likely to be a major issue within the next franchise period. This chapter looks at the rolling stock issues in detail and sets out a recommended strategy, which will form the basis of a vision option that is appraised in a later part of this study.

Summary of issues
The previous EEDA report on the GEML, together with the interim report from the capacity study both highlighted the need to upgrade and or replace the passenger rolling stock. Therefore the development of a rolling stock strategy needs to address:


  • Additional trains will be required to provide the rolling stock for the additional train paths that the infrastructure improvements provide, although this number will be reduced somewhat if average end toend journey times are reduced and with higher reliability rolling stock;
  • Faster trains will be required to make use of the increased line speeds on the GEML and to maintain the capacity improvements;
  • The existing Class 321 fleet does not meet the requirements of the PRM-TSI regulations and will therefore need an extensive refurbishment to meet them and ensure their continued use beyond 2020;
  • The existing Class 321 fleet are not capable of being upgraded to operate at 110mph;
  • The current outer commuter EMU stock is considered to have poor on board facilities, with a lack of toilets and a level of comfort not appropriate for outer suburban services;
  • The class 360 fleet can be upgraded to operate at 110mph. The upgrades of London Midland‟s Class 350 fleet to 110mph running highlights that this is achievable. An estimate for this work has been provided by the ROSCO;
  • The existing Class 90 and Mark 3 coach operated inter-city services were originally designed to operate at 110mph and have done so on the West Coast mainline, although the practicalities of operating the Class 90s (which have a reputation for unreliability) at maximum speeds at this late stage of their lives needs to be closely looked at.
  • There are concerns from NR that the current Class 90‟s and Mark 3 Coaches could not operate at 110mph with the existing signal spacing due to their acceleration and braking characteristics;
  • The existing Mark 3 coaches will need refurbished to meet the requirements of the PRM-TSI regulations beyond 2020. This is possible as has been demonstrated by Chiltern Railways recent refurbishment of their Mark 3 fleet;
  • None of the major locomotive manufacturers currently makes a high speed electric locomotive which is compatible with the UK railway system (However, models have been developed for the UK and await an initial order prior to the production of a prototype); and
  • Most of the main rolling stock manufacturers (Alstom, Bombardier, Hitachi & Siemens) have EMU‟s in UK service or development which could form the basis of a new 110mph outer commuter or inter-city train for the GEML.

3.3. Inter-City Services
This service group includes all express Norwich services which are currently operated by Class 90 electric locomotives and rakes of Mark 3 coaches.

A major concern for the delivery of the proposed linespeed improvements is the ability of the current Class 90 / Mark 3 trains to operate at a higher speed within the current signal spacing. Based upon the operating characteristics of the locomotive and coaches, it is thought by Network Rail that there is a significant risk that the trains will be not able to operate at 110mph within the existing signal spacing over all signal sections.

Therefore to provide the faster linespeed and hence journey times this report has examined the options of either replacing either the locomotives or all of the inter-city rolling stock.

In view of this the option of procuring new electric locomotives to haul the existing Mark 3 stock (providing that they are suitably refurbished/re-engineered to meet the PRM-TSI regulations) needs to be examined.

Currently there are no new electric locomotives in operation that are suitable for operation on the UK rail network. However, manufacturers maybe able to adapt existing designs to fit within the UK loading gauge,
for example:

  • Bombardier Traxx;
  • Siemens Vectron; or
  • Alstom Prima II.
Bombardier have already announced that they have designed a version of the Traxx locomotive (P200 AC UK) to fit within the UK loading gauge, they have previously promoted the use of this locomotive type on the GEML services to replace the Class 90‟s. This UK version of the Traxx locomotive family would have 7500hp and a top speed of 125mph (200kph)

The Siemens Vectron is a modular design of locomotive which can be configured to operate across Europe. Discussions with ROSCO‟s have indicated that a version of this locomotive could be built to fit into the UK loading gauge. This locomotive would have 8,600hp and is capable of operating at 125mph (200kph). It was announced in September 2012 that the Vectron locomotive fulfils the TSI HS RST specification for class 2 vehicles operating on the trans-European high-speed rail system (vehicles with a maximum speed from 190 kph to 250 kph). It is understood that this could permit the Vectron to operate in Europe at speeds up to 230 kph (approx 144 mph), where permitted.

A new electric locomotive of either the Traxx or Vectron type, with modern power control systems could be set up specifically for operating on the GEML. On this basis Atkins rolling stock engineers are confident that a new locomotive would have the performance required to operate faster Inter-City services with Mark 3 coaching stock. It is estimated that the purchase cost of the new locomotive of these types is circa £4 Million per unit.

Coaching Stock
In addition to new locomotives, it is recommended that a significant refurbishment of the current Mark 3 coaching stock is undertaken; this would need to include the electrical (replacement of motor-alternators) and braking systems as well as seating, vehicle accessibility and toilets.

The PRM-TSI regulations require all rail vehicles operating from 2020 onwards to be fully accessible. For the Mark 3s this could range from providing some or all coaches with sliding 'plug' doors (as has recently been implemented by Chiltern Trains), providing high back seating and accessible toilets (with closed tanks for waste storage rather than on-track discharge).

The refurbishment of Mark 3 coaches for use on Chiltern and Cross Country services highlights the flexibility of this design of coach. A significant refurbishment of this type could typically add a further 15 years of service life to these coaches and certainly see out the next franchise. ROSCOs have estimated that a major refurbishment of the Mark 3‟s, including new plug doors, would cost around £250,000 per coach.

In addition to the Mark 3 coach proposals, Porterbrook has come up with a further proposal to replace the DVTs with a passenger carrying vehicle. This could either be achieved by converting the existing DVTs into passenger carrying vehicles, or preferably building new dedicated passenger vehicles. Figure 7 and 8 provide an example of how these vehicles could look (both pictures courtesy of Porterbrook).
 
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ginger

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excellent document......deals with all the issues ignored by successive DFT tender processes......

Come on the DFT....get rid of Abelio and give us a professional TOC who can implement these recommendations!
 

ainsworth74

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Unless it's in the franchise agreement no company would implement those recommendations. Nowt to do with it being Abellio.
 

tbtc

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Come on the DFT....get rid of Abelio and give us a professional TOC

Gosh - I'm surprised by your instant reaction... :lol:

Seriously though, since there's no way of speeding up the 321s to 110 (which are by far the largest fleet that GA have, esp on the Ipswich corridor) then is talk of upgrading the 360s and loco hauled services to 110?

Also, sounds like there is little scope to order a fleet of just over a dozen locos specifically for this service.

(also, Abelio's franchise was only ever a short term one - not Abelio's fault - and it was obvious that there was going to be a longer term approach taken after that)
 

ginger

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Gosh - I'm surprised by your instant reaction... :lol:

Seriously though, since there's no way of speeding up the 321s to 110 (which are by far the largest fleet that GA have, esp on the Ipswich corridor) then is talk of upgrading the 360s and loco hauled services to 110?

Also, sounds like there is little scope to order a fleet of just over a dozen locos specifically for this service.

(also, Abelio's franchise was only ever a short term one - not Abelio's fault - and it was obvious that there was going to be a longer term approach taken after that)

The entire document deals with all these issues.....makes for a good read!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and Abelio are rubbish at even the basics! PPM for the GEML down to 86% and 80% in the past 2 months....even many of the staff have had enough already and are openly voicing their dissatisfaction with management.....trains filthy, unreliable, late.....need I go on.....
 

tbtc

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The entire document deals with all these issues.....makes for a good read!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and Abelio are rubbish at even the basics! PPM for the GEML down to 86% and 80% in the past 2 months....even many of the staff have had enough already and are openly voicing their dissatisfaction with management.....trains filthy, unreliable, late.....need I go on.....

I'm sure there was something in the newspaper about a touch of rain in southern England, maybe the kind of thing that would have affected the railways? I could be wrong, of course.

The point is that the temporary franchise was always going to be a short term thing - the document listed by the OP is about longer term capacity problems. You've predictably used this as another excuse to criticise Abelio, of course - that's nothing to do with this thread though.
 

SprinterMan

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In FGE days, the service from stations north of Shenfield to London per hour was like this:

Norwich - London Fast (Anglia Railways)
Norwich - London Fast (Anglia Railways)
Ipswich - London Fast (FGE)
Ipswich - London Slow (FGE)
Clacton - London Slow (FGE)
Colchester Town - London Slow (FGE)
Braintree - London Slow (FGE)


Nowadays, it is:

Norwich - London Fast
Norwich - London Fast
Ipswich - London Slow
Clacton - London Slow
Colchester Town - London Slow
Braintree - London Slow


There is one less train now, as the Ipswich-London fast (321 operated, Manningtree/Colchester/Chelmsford only) no longer runs. What took the path for this, as even with this timetable Anglia managed to run a couple of extras for Crosslink until that was cancelled.

Adam :D
 
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LE Greys

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In FGE days, the service from stations north of Shenfield to London per hour was like this:

Norwich - London Fast (Anglia Railways)
Norwich - London Fast (Anglia Railways)
Ipswich - London Fast (FGE)
Ipswich - London Slow (FGE)
Clacton - London Slow (FGE)
Colchester Town - London Slow (FGE)
Braintree - London Slow (FGE)


Nowadays, it is:

Norwich - London Fast
Norwich - LondonFast
Ipswich - London Slow
Clacton - London Slow
Colchester Town - London Slow
Braintree - London Slow


There is one less train now, as the Ipswich-London fast (321 operated, Manningtree/Colchester/Chelmsford only) no longer runs. What took the path for this, as even with this timetable Anglia managed to run a couple of extras for Crosslink until that was cancelled.

Adam :D

Probably, an additional Freightliner or two. I'd be interested to see the loading figures for the FGE trains vs the Anglia ones, it sounds like FGE path-blocking to get a bigger revenue share. WAGN did something similar at one point, by running an extra peak train through Welwyn to Letchworth (which nobody ever used north of Welwyn).
 

SprinterMan

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Probably, an additional Freightliner or two. I'd be interested to see the loading figures for the FGE trains vs the Anglia ones, it sounds like FGE path-blocking to get a bigger revenue share. WAGN did something similar at one point, by running an extra peak train through Welwyn to Letchworth (which nobody ever used north of Welwyn).

The trains left Ipswich at xx:30, which was in between the xx:14 and xx:41 Anglia departures for London. The FGE train called Manningtree/Colchester/Chelmsford on it's way to London, with Anglia only rarely calling at Chelmsford and this was before the days Stratford was as important as it is now. I travelled on one of these trains before, and it was a 12-car 321. Loadings weren't massive tbh, plenty of empty seats.

Adam :D
 

tbtc

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it sounds like FGE path-blocking to get a bigger revenue share. WAGN did something similar at one point, by running an extra peak train through Welwyn to Letchworth (which nobody ever used north of Welwyn).

It was a relatively short lived ORCATS "raid", from what I remember, with FGE competing for a bigger slice of the Ipswich - London "pie" rather than concentrating on their own core services. I don't think that it was around for long enough to be a reasonable benchmark for what the Ipswich - London service should be today.
 

GB

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In FGE days, the service from stations north of Shenfield to London per hour was like this:

Norwich - London Fast (Anglia Railways)
Norwich - London Fast (Anglia Railways)
Ipswich - London Fast (FGE)
Ipswich - London Slow (FGE)
Clacton - London Slow (FGE)
Colchester Town - London Slow (FGE)
Braintree - London Slow (FGE)


Nowadays, it is:

Norwich - London Fast
Norwich - LondonFast
Ipswich - London Slow
Clacton - London Slow
Colchester Town - London Slow
Braintree - London Slow


There is one less train now, as the Ipswich-London fast (321 operated, Manningtree/Colchester/Chelmsford only) no longer runs. What took the path for this, as even with this timetable Anglia managed to run a couple of extras for Crosslink until that was cancelled.

Adam :D

Don't forget you had the through Peterborough/Lowestoft class 170 service that used to depart Colchester around xx48 which replaced the Ipswich London service. It's only relatively recently this train no longer runs.
 

SprinterMan

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Don't forget you had the through Peterborough/Lowestoft class 170 service that used to depart Colchester around xx48 which replaced the Ipswich London service. It's only relatively recently this train no longer runs.

Incorrect I'm afraid, under ONE/NX's "insanity" timetable the pattern was as follows:

Norwich - London Fast
Norwich - London Fast
LWT/PBO - Ipswich - London Semi-Fast
Harwich Town - London Slow
Clacton - London Slow
Braintree - London Slow


Which is the same number of trains as today's timetable, and one fewer than FGE's timetable. The differences are that the Harwich train now serves Colchester Town instead as Harwich never attracted the anticipated custom, and the 170 operated services were cut back to Ipswich so they could be EMU operated and serve alot more local stations.

Adam :D
 

317666

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The idea of Bombardier TRAXX locos replacing the 90s isn't a new one, I'm sure I read it elsewhere a few years ago.
 

F Great Eastern

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Incorrect I'm afraid, under ONE/NX's "insanity" timetable the pattern was as follows:

Norwich - London Fast
Norwich - London Fast
LWT/PBO - Ipswich - London Semi-Fast
Harwich Town - London Slow
Clacton - London Slow
Braintree - London Slow


Which is the same number of trains as today's timetable, and one fewer than FGE's timetable.

That Lowestoft to Peterborough to London train was quite often a two car 170 as three cars were quite often not available. It basically replaced a twice hourly four car EMU from London to Ipswich that was run by FGE and whilst there was overcapacity there previously, it was cut back too much.

Whilst providing through services for people north of Ipswich was beneficial for them, running a two car 170 to London was always going to suffer from the obvious capacity problems it had. It was inefficient use of stock if you ask me.

True it may be a pain to change trains now they've got rid of such services, but it provides everyone with a more regular service, a more efficient use of stock and reduces what was at times crazy overcrowding on the through services.
 

ginger

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what do people think about this "3rd" track between Chelmsford and Boreham? Seems a bit bonkers to me.....why not just 4 track it? And then put fast passing loops between Kelvedon and Marks Tey (where it is flat farmland)...........
 

MCR247

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Isn't 3 tracks pretty much a long passing loop anyway?
 

jopsuk

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at peak times on many lines capacity is only constrained one way- a third track can be used in a "tidal" manner, as is now happening on the Paisley line out of Glasgow.
 

aylesbury

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Just been reading about Crossrail ,how will the GE section trains fit in with the high level of service to Shenfield ?All these surburban services must surely slow down everything coming from Norwich,Ipswich as well ,so anyone got any ideas?
 

jopsuk

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I think part of the idea is that, with the increased service on the GE from Crossrail, most local trains to further out will stop basically at Stratford and Shenfield, running fast otherwise
 

captainbigun

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I think part of the idea is that, with the increased service on the GE from Crossrail, most local trains to further out will stop basically at Stratford and Shenfield, running fast otherwise

It'll be little different to now, today's metro services will become Crossrail services.

However there will be necessity to use the infrastructure as a pair of two track railways between Stratford and Shenfield to ensure that Crossrail isn't b******* up by issues on the outer GE and vice versa.

As for the report itself it's only part of the story given the requirements that were fed into it. There's a lot more to it, not least who's paying for all of the infrastructure and stock.
 

F1Ken

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I'm sorry but it seems this report want's rid of the Class 321's which are perfectly fine for the job. The 321's should stay and anyway why waste all this money for an extra 10mph. I would say acceleration is more important on the GEML.

And why replace the 90's with new stock. What will the new stock do when the mark 3 coaches have run out of life.
 
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captainbigun

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Replacing the 321s does seem a little far fetched, I can't see that happening unless there is a cascade opportunity. Fitting them with inverter drive and better braking should suffice. I'm not sure what the obsession with 110mph running is. I suspect that part at least will go on the too expensive pile, if not for the capital cost, the extra maintenance.
 

F1Ken

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Replacing the 321s does seem a little far fetched, I can't see that happening unless there is a cascade opportunity. Fitting them with inverter drive and better braking should suffice. I'm not sure what the obsession with 110mph running is. I suspect that part at least will go on the too expensive pile, if not for the capital cost, the extra maintenance.

I agree. I think a lot of people just want new trains which is stupid. The trains we have now new a refurb. I also seriously think a good overhaul and the 90's will be fine for another 10 years.

The 321's were pretty much built for what they are doing now and it's ludicrous to say they need replacing. that's 94 units I believe. 100 trains basically.
 

colchesterken

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The 321 are a bit sluggish. Rather than spend £4m as on the 317 upgrading to A/C
would it be possible to fit more powerful D/C motors within the frame as fitted.
Also rather than slowing at stations to save harsh braking would it be reasonable to fit regen brakes at not too much cost
They are slow off the mark against the 360s
 

captainbigun

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There's simply no value in investing in DC motor changes. You'd basically have to rewind the motor, not that you'd get any more copper into the carcass. You'd then have to look at the rating of the converters and also the transformer. Adding regen would just complicate things further.

Far better to bin the kit and refit new kit.

I'm not sure where the £4m figure comes from, I would not expect it to be anything like that for a traction upgrade.

As for the comparison with the Desiros, don't forget the latter have eight powered axles per unit and a lot more installed power.
 

Pugwash

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I agree. I think a lot of people just want new trains which is stupid. The trains we have now new a refurb. I also seriously think a good overhaul and the 90's will be fine for another 10 years.

The 321's were pretty much built for what they are doing now and it's ludicrous to say they need replacing. that's 94 units I believe. 100 trains basically.

The 321's are very tired, they need a total refurb internally, new toilets are required in the next 7 years, A/C would be a nice touch as well to bring them up to modern standards, additionally they cannot run in the snow at full speed. If there are to get any of this the GEML will need more stock to cover whilst they are away as there is not enough slack to cover.

Surely as the stock are not owned by the operator but by a bank, it would make sense to see if something can be obtained that costs similar to run than the current fleet.
 

D365

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The 321's are very tired, they need a total refurb internally, new toilets are required in the next 7 years, A/C would be a nice touch as well to bring them up to modern standards, additionally they cannot run in the snow at full speed. If there are to get any of this the GEML will need more stock to cover whilst they are away as there is not enough slack to cover.

Surely as the stock are not owned by the operator but by a bank, it would make sense to see if something can be obtained that costs similar to run than the current fleet.

cough317/7orPretendolinocough - latter to release 2x321 on Norwich fasts...

I'm looking forward to the refurbs for sure :D
 
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