Boxing Day: Should there be scheduled trains?

[ainsworth74]

So make Sundays the same as weekdays and then in a few years time we can have a thread on here about how much money the railway is wasting in staffing and running costs by running a weekday service on a Sunday with a small fraction of the number of passengers paying for it.

Maybe where you are but round my way long distance and local services are as busy as they are during the week (and in some cases busier). Further, maybe it was just me, but hasn't it been widely acknowledged that Sunday is one of the consistently most busy travelling days on the network?

 

[Flamingo]

On the trains in and out of South Wales from London, Sunday is the day that could do with a half-hourly service, from a capacity point of view there would be plenty of capacity if they were hourly from 10.00 to 16.00 Mon -Fri (something which is shown by the way that the XX:15 to Cardiff are the first trains cancelled in disruption).

However, this is not done as
1. It is not a franchise requirement
2. The WAG won't pay to subsidise the Sunday services (as they do Mon - Fri)
3. It can be enough of a struggle to cover the existing Sunday trains without introducing new ones.

 

[reb0118]

They have a much more modern railway in Europe-it was largely built post war rather than our Victorian set up. There are less major upgrade programmes as a result and more flexibility for them to do a certain amount of work without causing as much disruption.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollandsche_IJzeren_Spoorweg-Maatschappij#Statistieken

for example, shows considerable rail usage in the 1840s in the Netherlands. The Dutch actually went through their own Beeching-type network cull long before the UK did. So they have had to go through a continual process of infrastructure improvements as rail transport was prioritised since the 1970s.

So, please, give a better excuse why the UK can't do a 365 day railway, or at least a 7 day one.

The RAF & USAAF destroyed a whole swathe of the rail network in North Western Europe prior to D - Day (and to be honest throughout the war) and this had to be rebuilt after the war. Therefore the systems in that part of Europe date from the 1950's.

Our railways in comparison were ran into the ground during both world wars with little or no investment in post war times (unlike Europe with millions of $$$ in Marshal Aid.)

With the increase in services & patronage this lack of investment has come back to bite us on the bum - we were lucky that in most cases the Victorians built with the future in mind otherwise we would have been screwed long before now. It is just that the future has caught up - almost 112 years after Victoria died!

 

[Oswyntail]

.....
However, this is not done as
1. It is not a franchise requirement (Because some TOCs are happy to do the bare minimum required because their profits are protected?)
2. The WAG won't pay to subsidise the Sunday services (as they do Mon - Fri)(Because they still believe the idiocy - chapel inspired? - that people don't do anything on a Sunday?)
3. It can be enough of a struggle to cover the existing Sunday trains without introducing new ones.(Because those asked to "cover" don't see that, to continue providing them with a job, the industry has to evolve to meet the needs/wants of its clients?)

Evolve or die!

 

[Dave1987]

Evolve or die!

Different passengers want different things, some want services very late at night or very early in the morning. Some passengers want intercity trains to stop at more stations others want them to stop at less!

You can never provide a service that caters to the needs of every passenger.

I hope the railways do not try and increase the service on Sundays as it works well at the moment plus there really isn't the demand.

 

[FGW_DID]

Great to see all the selfish whining on here from people who want to go shopping or visit family on Boxing Day and expect me and fellow railway staff to lose our time with our families!

I was in the RAF for 22 yrs and spent many a Xmas / Boxing Day on duty, sometimes in far flung places, I did because it was my job. Now it's not and I look forward to having the two straight days off to spend it with my family and be able to enjoy myself and not have to worry about getting up at stupid o'clock just because someone wants to buy a half price HD/3D TV in the sales!

 

[noddingdonkey]

With the greatest of respect most of the "selfish whining" I'm seeing in this thread is from railway staff who feel that their right to a day off must be continued despite it leaving the millions of people whose contracts in other industries require them to work on Boxing Day unable to get to work.

The idea that the whole country shuts down for two days is an anachronism, much like your precious contract terms.

 

[EM2]

The idea that the whole country shuts down for two days is an anachronism, much like your precious contract terms.

Is it really? As already noted, many shops don't open on Easter Sunday, in fact The Entertainer chain of toy shops doesn't open on *any* Sunday. And yet the trains run.
Is that anachronistic?

 

[GB]

With the greatest of respect most of the "selfish whining" I'm seeing in this thread is from railway staff who feel that their right to a day off must be continued despite it leaving the millions of people whose contracts in other industries require them to work on Boxing Day unable to get to work.

The idea that the whole country shuts down for two days is an anachronism, much like your precious contract terms.

So millions of people were unable to get to work this Boxing day? Highly doubtful.

 

[Dave1987]

With the greatest of respect most of the "selfish whining" I'm seeing in this thread is from railway staff who feel that their right to a day off must be continued despite it leaving the millions of people whose contracts in other industries require them to work on Boxing Day unable to get to work.

The idea that the whole country shuts down for two days is an anachronism, much like your precious contract terms.

Now you see this is the precise problem. There are three sacred days in the Calender i.e Christmas day, Boxing Day and Easter Sunday. The blatant commercialisation of these days is to the detrement of us all. I.e forcing people to have to work when they actually want to be with their families. I do not think it is selfish to want to be with your family for these days instead of ferrying people to the sales. And for all who say a service could be run with volunteers, unless it was triple time or something along those lines you wouldn't get enough volunteers to run a service.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Is it really? As already noted, many shops don't open on Easter Sunday, in fact The Entertainer chain of toy shops doesn't open on *any* Sunday. And yet the trains run.
Is that anachronistic?

Spot on
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Now you see this is the precise problem. There are three sacred days in the Calender i.e Christmas day, Boxing Day and Easter Sunday. The blatant commercialisation of these days is to the detrement of us all. I.e forcing people to have to work when they actually want to be with their families. I do not think it is selfish to want to be with your family for these days instead of ferrying people to the sales. And for all who say a service could be run with volunteers, unless it was triple time or something along those lines you wouldn't get enough volunteers to run a service.

Exactly
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With the greatest of respect most of the "selfish whining" I'm seeing in this thread is from railway staff who feel that their right to a day off must be continued despite it leaving the millions of people whose contracts in other industries require them to work on Boxing Day unable to get to work.

The idea that the whole country shuts down for two days is an anachronism, much like your precious contract terms.

Laughable!

Like has been mentioned previously there are 3 sacred days to a lot of people, its commercialisation that is the knife twister, People still manage to get to work or do there shopping, I will protect MY right to have those Xmas and Boxing days off until my last breath (or the government takes even more rights away). Family to myself is a hell of a lot more important to me then a Boxing Day Sale that started on Xmas Eve (Online anyway) and no one will ever change my mind about it.

 

[noddingdonkey]

My point is that you're not going to put the genie back in the bottle. The commercialisation has already happened (for better or worse) and means that plenty of people need to work on that day and need transport to get them there.

Public transport needs to evolve to make sure it continues to serve its customers' needs, which arguably includes running a skeleton service on Boxing Day

 

[EM2]

My point is that you're not going to put the genie back in the bottle. The commercialisation has already happened (for better or worse) and means that plenty of people need to work on that day and need transport to get them there.

Public transport needs to evolve to make sure it continues to serve its customers' needs, which arguably includes running a skeleton service on Boxing Day

The problem is that the genie has been let out, and the evil Grand Vizier who let it out now expects everyone to bend to his will. But many people have no wish to and that includes a lot of bus companies.
I could decide that I want to be called Evangeline, but if people simply don't want to, I can't force them to.

 

[Flamingo]

Evolve or die!

Do you really think the entire Rail network is going to shut down as a commercial entity because it doesent transport people on the two quietest days of the year?

A wee bit extreme, but I'm a dinosaur, so what do I know.

 

[Oswyntail]

Do you really think the entire Rail network is going to shut down as a commercial entity because it doesent transport people on the two quietest days of the year?

A wee bit extreme, but I'm a dinosaur, so what do I know.

Even dinosaurs evolved - into Flamingos!
My point is that, on this and other matters, the industry as a whole has to have a flexible response to the changing demands of its customers. For instance, virtually everyone is more varied in their use of leisure time than even ten years ago, so a service that does not provide for this will lose out, with knock-on effects. In the present issue, families are more distributed round the country, so a "Family Christmas" involves a lot more travel than when we were young. This should be seen as a business opportunity, but it is not. Businesses that ignore opportunities tend to die - eventually.

 

[Lewisham2221]

But sacrificing the family time of railway employees so that other people can have more family time at Christmas isn't going to help anybody in the long run.

 

[Flamingo]

But sacrificing the family time of railway employees so that other people can have more family time at Christmas isn't going to help anybody in the long run.

My point earlier in the thread, I'm not penalizing my family for the benefit of someone elses. I do that on every Sunday I work the rest of the year.

 

[Clip]

My point earlier in the thread, I'm not penalizing my family for the benefit of someone elses. I do that on every Sunday I work the rest of the year.

Its a very good point. Most people generally work mon-fri so get every weekend off. We don't. They also don't get called in the middle of the night due to disruption and sort that out then still get up for work the next day. Yet still begrudge us the only 2 guaranteed days off a year outside leave allocation.


But 'they pay our wages' is the claim yet also then begrudge wanting to give me a pay rise. Fantastic.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Its a very good point. Most people generally work mon-fri so get every weekend off. We don't. They also don't get called in the middle of the night due to disruption and sort that out then still get up for work the next day. Yet still begrudge us the only 2 guaranteed days off a year outside leave allocation.


But 'they pay our wages' is the claim yet also then begrudge wanting to give me a pay rise. Fantastic.

I do love the old "We pay their wages" argument, so I pay myself through Taxes of course, I'm with Flamingo on this totally.

 

[nedchester]

I wonder how those who work on the railways in Europe (which have a 365 day service) would view some of the comments made by rail staff?

If staff were offered, say triple time or more on Boxing Day I suspect the TOCs who would be overrun with staff wanting to work and sacrificing time with their families.

A bit like drivers who said that for safety reasons they needed an assistant driver to drive a train over 110 mph a few years ago. Drivers then were offered a pay rise and suddenly it was safe for them to drive on their own!!! Everyone has their price.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its a very good point. Most people generally work mon-fri so get every weekend off. We don't. They also don't get called in the middle of the night due to disruption and sort that out then still get up for work the next day. Yet still begrudge us the only 2 guaranteed days off a year outside leave allocation.


But 'they pay our wages' is the claim yet also then begrudge wanting to give me a pay rise. Fantastic.

Quite of few of those who work just M-F have had a pay freeze for the past 3 years. Imagine that happening in the rail industry?!

 

[Lewisham2221]

What's this obsession with comparing our railways with Europe all the time? They speak funny languages in Europe and they spend funny money, do we need to start charging rail fares in Euros and do all announcements in German/French etc too?

 

[nedchester]

What's this obsession with comparing our railways with Europe all the time? They speak funny languages in Europe and they spend funny money, do we need to start charging rail fares in Euros and do all announcements in German/French etc too?

Might be better if the UK had the same attitude to the railways as those of the Europeans. Just because it isn't English doesn't make it 'funny'. I see your comments as rather xenophobic!!!

 

[PauloDavesi]

It is surprising that when the franchises changed hands the contracts of the operatives were not revised to require availability to work as required at any time on all days of the year.

It would be logical and make scheduling work patterns a lot easier.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Might be better if the UK had the same attitude to the railways as those of the Europeans. Just because it isn't English doesn't make it 'funny'. I see your comments as rather xenophobic!!!

There was a certain amount of tongue in cheek there, monsieur.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I wonder how those who work on the railways in Europe (which have a 365 day service) would view some of the comments made by rail staff?

If staff were offered, say triple time or more on Boxing Day I suspect the TOCs who would be overrun with staff wanting to work and sacrificing time with their families.

A bit like drivers who said that for safety reasons they needed an assistant driver to drive a train over 110 mph a few years ago. Drivers then were offered a pay rise and suddenly it was safe for them to drive on their own!!! Everyone has their price.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Quite of few of those who work just M-F have had a pay freeze for the past 3 years. Imagine that happening in the rail industry?!

Its about Family to me, whatever other people decide is their business however they could offer me 10 x and it wouldn't matter, some things are sacred.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was a certain amount of tongue in cheek there, monsieur.

even I figured that out lol

 

[GB]

I do love the old "We pay their wages" argument, so I pay myself through Taxes of course, I'm with Flamingo on this totally.

Almost as good as the "I didn't get a pay rise so why should you" argument or the current theme of this thread..."I don't get boxing day off so why should you":roll:

I really do wonder if those that are complaining about some railway staff having XX day off would be so vocal if the shoe was on the other foot.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Almost as good as the "I didn't get a pay rise so why should you" argument or the current theme of this thread..."I don't get boxing day off so why should you":roll:

I really do wonder if those that are complaining about some railway staff having XX day off would be so vocal if the shoe was on the other foot.

somehow I seriously doubt it lol

 

[nedchester]

There was a certain amount of tongue in cheek there, monsieur.

Apols!!!

 

[EM2]

It is surprising that when the franchises changed hands the contracts of the operatives were not revised to require availability to work as required at any time on all days of the year.

It would be logical and make scheduling work patterns a lot easier.

Because it's not allowed. Workers terms and conditions must remain the same (or be improved). New starters can be given a different contract, and this can be offered to existing employees, but they are under no obligation to accept it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUPE

 

[Dave1987]

Another thing is though that rail staff and particularly train crews, when the service is severely disrupted like a few weeks back with the fatality that never was, crews stayed on way past their booking off time to make sure ppl got home. They didn't have to, and no doubt if they hadn't passengers would have cursed them till they were blue in the face, this because all ppl were focused on was the fact THEY wanted to get home. I bet none of them spared a thought for the staff that had to work extra like me. I booked off 3 hrs after I was supposed to.