Northern Rail: The most cynical TOC out there?

[WestCoast]

I don't think this argument holds water. VT's London to Chester services are frequently just over 10 minutes late upon arrival at Crewe, yet remarkably arrive in Chester within the 10 minute PPM limit and are therefore classed as 'on time.'

Whilst with Northern a 5 minute delay might not sound like a lot, being 3-4 minutes late each day is frustrating for the regular commuter.

Northern's services have to be within 5 minutes of the scheduled time otherwise they are classed as late in the PPM figures. If you're a regular commuter, you have to accept 3-4 minute delays (the roads around e.g. Manchester are hardly better for peak delays?!). In fact, on the Cross City line in the West Midlands, I expect there to be at least a couple of minutes delay...

If you live in somewhere like Buxton, I don't think that's an option, but moving further out to take advantage of VT/XC/ATW/TPE is certainly appealing if you just can't stand Northern.

If your problem with Northern services is a lack of seats, then the chances are that TPE and XC won't be much better! On the Manchester - Preston corridor, it's usually the TPE services that are more overcrowded.

 

[snail]

Is this thread really anything to do with fares, tickets or routing?

No, from what I've read so far it's a whinge from a couple of people that have been caught by Northern without the correct tickets and a more reasoned response from people who know the constraints they are working to (G4S not included).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whilst with Northern a 5 minute delay might not sound like a lot, being 3-4 minutes late each day is frustrating for the regular commuter.

It shouldn't be. My TPE train into Piccadilly was often up to 5 minutes late, I just made sure I allowed for the additional time and treated on-time arrivals as a bonus (or 5 minutes longer for a coffee).

 

[34D]

You can't expect your posts to go unchallenged. Northern's stock and the condition they are kept in is their main exceptional failing and sets them apart

But there's nothing actually wrong with their stock, apart from that their class 158s etc haven't had a full 'gutted' refurb like the units on say SWT. They have hoever had new seat covers, and receive daily cleaning as well as daily/weekly maintenance attention.

As far as I can see, the only problem is the lack of a full refurb. Everything in the northern fleet as far as I can see had new seat covers under Northern spirit/Arriva trains northern/First north western, and indeed many pacers had completely new seats.

 

[cuccir]

Northerns Stations are not up to much either from my experience....

Alnmouth - Train Indicator Boards not working for months with no staff in the Evening (witnessed 9 days ago)

I don't know if this is typical but just my experience.

You're basing it on a station that Northern serve once a day?

That's not relevant - they run the station.

That said, Alnmouth serves a low population rural area - it's staffed till 18:15, and till 20:30 on q Sunday, which isn't terrible

 

[whitrope]

No excuse not to have clean trains. So please lets not waste time on justifying why not. I am more forgiving on the rest and think Northern are no better/worse than many and in the friendly helpful staff stakes are streets ahead.

So please Mr Engineering Director, fancy a bit of hand bashing?

 

[Wolfie]

But there's nothing actually wrong with their stock, apart from that their class 158s etc haven't had a full 'gutted' refurb like the units on say SWT. They have hoever had new seat covers, and receive daily cleaning as well as daily/weekly maintenance attention.

As far as I can see, the only problem is the lack of a full refurb. Everything in the northern fleet as far as I can see had new seat covers under Northern spirit/Arriva trains northern/First north western, and indeed many pacers had completely new seats.

Agreed. I haven't used Northern that often but what I would say is that when I have the stock has always been clean and well-presented (little things like toilet paper and soap in the loo), and the staff friendly. BUT it is often like time travel - welcome to the 1980s! - with none of the rolling stock properly refurbished. When for example you see an ATW Class 158 (which I do use pretty regularly) and compare it to a Northern Class 158 it is like comparing chalk and cheese. One appears fresh and modern after a decent refurb and the other looks old and tired (and many of the seat cushions are shot)....

 

[AndyLandy]

I won't 'have a moan' but I do find it very dissapointing that we, as a nation, have been unable to bring enough new and additional rolling-stock onto our railways to improve capacity and comfort; even in the 'boom' years of real estate investment across much of the UK, we still didn't manage to finance a few hundred more trains (though I do seem to remember that the Governement often talked about it, even boasted about it).

As already mentioned: Northern have "suffered" an unanticipated (by the government) growth in passenger numbers of nearly 40% over 10 years - and despite the wishes of the company there is no spare stock to poach anywhere. They have to make do with what is available unfortunately from the government. Frustrating I know but it's not Northern being ignorant to your wishes for a seat.

These two posts largely sum up my thoughts on the matter. The Northern franchise has seen a large amount of unexpected growth. Coupled with the fact that we haven't been buying enough trains to cater for that, means we're in this situation where Northern are running short, dirty, old BR stock.

The dead giveaway for me is every time I get a 150 on the Mid-Cheshire line, it's a different one to the last time I travelled, and is often in some other TOCs colours. Clearly every time a Sprinter comes off lease, Northern will nab it as fast as they can and get it in service to try and deal with the ever-growing passenger demands.

Travelling off-peak, the trains can be busy, but are rarely overcrowded. The overall condition of the trains leaves a lot to be desired (I swear Northern's Pacers are in better nick than their 150s). Threadbare upholstery, dirty floors and broken toilet doors are a common theme, but they still seem to run to schedule.

I think my only real gripe is the time it takes to travel. Over an hour from Cuddington to Manchester gets tedious pretty quickly, but that's never going to be an easy fix.

 

[Deerfold]

These two posts largely sum up my thoughts on the matter. The Northern franchise has seen a large amount of unexpected growth. Coupled with the fact that we haven't been buying enough trains to cater for that, means we're in this situation where Northern are running short, dirty, old BR stock.

The dead giveaway for me is every time I get a 150 on the Mid-Cheshire line, it's a different one to the last time I travelled, and is often in some other TOCs colours. Clearly every time a Sprinter comes off lease, Northern will nab it as fast as they can and get it in service to try and deal with the ever-growing passenger demands.

Travelling off-peak, the trains can be busy, but are rarely overcrowded. The overall condition of the trains leaves a lot to be desired (I swear Northern's Pacers are in better nick than their 150s). Threadbare upholstery, dirty floors and broken toilet doors are a common theme, but they still seem to run to schedule.

I think my only real gripe is the time it takes to travel. Over an hour from Cuddington to Manchester gets tedious pretty quickly, but that's never going to be an easy fix.

I agree, except for the fact the growth was unexpected - Metro in West Yorkshire were expecting growth to continue as it has in west Yorkshire since the mid-80s and said so at the time.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

The main issue I have with Northern is actually the fault of the Department for Transport.

I think it is shocking that advance fares can not be bought on Northern rail services for journeys over a certain mileage.

e.g

Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes Via Doncaster ( TPE ) fares from £8.50 single
Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes via Gainsbrough ( NR ) £19.30p Return ( No Advance )

 

[Deerfold]

The main issue I have with Northern is actually the fault of the Department for Transport.

I think it is shocking that advance fares can not be bought on Northern rail services for journeys over a certain mileage.

e.g

Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes Via Doncaster ( TPE ) fares from £8.50 single
Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes via Gainsbrough ( NR ) £19.30p Return ( No Advance )

That's one of the few things about fares that the DoT don't run - it's up to the TOC to decide if it's worth having advance fares. I'm guessing Northern don't think it is on trips that are stuffed (and they only have them on a couple of lines).

Quite pleased with a £7 Nottingham to Leeds I've picked up with less than a week's notice - the normal single fare is horrendous for that journey.

 

[northwichcat]

If your problem with Northern services is a lack of seats, then the chances are that TPE and XC won't be much better! On the Manchester - Preston corridor, it's usually the TPE services that are more overcrowded.

Yes but Northern are the only operator serving the Manchester area who don't offer seat reservations.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

That's one of the few things about fares that the DoT don't run - it's up to the TOC to decide if it's worth having advance fares. I'm guessing Northern don't think it is on trips that are stuffed (and they only have them on a couple of lines).

I got this e-mail from Northern Rail last week

"Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

I am disappointed that you feel our fares are set too high. I would like to assure you that we are committed to providing excellent value public transport.

The Department for Transport (DfT) regulates our fares, to make sure they are appropriate. Each year we review our fares with the DfT and try to strike a balance between our costs and investment commitments, and keeping our tickets at an attractive price-point. Thank you for taking the trouble to contact me with your views. We are confident that we provide cost effective public transport links throughout the North, but all feedback is welcome."

 

[AndyLandy]

I got this e-mail from Northern Rail last week

"Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

I am disappointed that you feel our fares are set too high. I would like to assure you that we are committed to providing excellent value public transport.

The Department for Transport (DfT) regulates our fares, to make sure they are appropriate. Each year we review our fares with the DfT and try to strike a balance between our costs and investment commitments, and keeping our tickets at an attractive price-point. Thank you for taking the trouble to contact me with your views. We are confident that we provide cost effective public transport links throughout the North, but all feedback is welcome."

TL;DR: "I'm sorry you think we're expensive, but we disagree, so tough. But thanks for contacting us all the same!"

I guess that was a fairly predictable response. But still, if you don't try, you definitely don't get.

 

[Deerfold]

I got this e-mail from Northern Rail last week

"Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

I am disappointed that you feel our fares are set too high. I would like to assure you that we are committed to providing excellent value public transport.

The Department for Transport (DfT) regulates our fares, to make sure they are appropriate. Each year we review our fares with the DfT and try to strike a balance between our costs and investment commitments, and keeping our tickets at an attractive price-point. Thank you for taking the trouble to contact me with your views. We are confident that we provide cost effective public transport links throughout the North, but all feedback is welcome."

The DOT only regulates some fares. Northern is free to bring in lower ones if they want. They have brought in Duo fares on some lines and advance fares between Leeds and Nottingham and between Newcastle and Carlisle. There's nothing stopping them introducing them elsewhere. Equally there's nothing forcing them to if they think it will just result in a lower turnover.

 

[Starmill]

It's not that hard to actually check rather than just speculating though!

From the December timetable update, every hour from 07:30 to 18:30 there is a train scheduled to arrive (in the working timetable) at 29 1/2 minutes past the hour, and to depart at half past the hour. Every hour this is shown in the public timetable as an arrival and departure time of xx:30, EXCEPT for the 09:29 departure, which is shown as 09:29 even though the departure time in the working timetable is 30 minutes past, just as in every other hour.

I can see why that would make people cynical, but with these sort of things I would always be wary of suggesting conspiracy when things can be adequately explained by cock-up. Here is my explanation:

In the current timetable, the 09:30 departure is an exception to every other, in that in the working timetable it is scheduled to arrive at 09:30 1/2 and depart at 09:31, i.e. 1 minute later than the corresponding arrival/departure times in every other hour. But the public arrival/departure times are still shown as 09:30, presumably in order to maintain easily-remembered clockface departure times.

In the December update the 09:30 departure has had its working time re-timed to be 1 minute earlier for consistency with all the other hours, but this must have caused the public departure time to be somehow automatically also re-timed 1 minute earlier (perhaps by some computer software?) and no one has really noticed.

Or does the OP have some evidence that the intention really is to ensure that off-peak fares from Mauldeth Road to Manchester Central Zone are not valid on this train? I don't think I am quite cynical enough to believe that.

Personally, I'm inclined to accept your explanation, but the man at the ticket office is not! What a turn of events!

 

[TUC]

Agreed. I haven't used Northern that often but what I would say is that when I have the stock has always been clean and well-presented (little things like toilet paper and soap in the loo), and the staff friendly. BUT it is often like time travel - welcome to the 1980s! - with none of the rolling stock properly refurbished. When for example you see an ATW Class 158 (which I do use pretty regularly) and compare it to a Northern Class 158 it is like comparing chalk and cheese. One appears fresh and modern after a decent refurb and the other looks old and tired (and many of the seat cushions are shot)....

Its the lighting that really needs sorting out on Pacers. Changing at Darlington from a brightly lit East Coast train to a Pacer that is so dimly lit its difficult to see to read is like stepping back into a different age-and very unhelpful to the area's image for visiting business people.

 

[6Gman]

So, I posted a while back about this faredodging letter I received (no response yet), and it seems they've had a long history of being draconian to those who have committed minor offences. However, some more things arose to my attention:

- The fact their services have too few carriages (I've yet to get a seat on my daily communte)

- Their trains are never on time (Almost every day the train gets in at least 5 minutes late)

- Their carriages are old, dirty and poorly maintained (I along with several other commuters almost missed our stop because the door wouldn't open)

- They seem to be understaffed (There was a fuss because London Midland wouldn't travel without guards, but I VERY rarely see them at all on Northern Rail)

1. Don't think I've ever had to stand on a Northern service [though I have seen overcrowded trains at the peak
2. Their trains are often right time; sometimes late
3. Their rolling stock is old (so what?), often clean, sometimes dirty; never noticed any maintenance issues
4. Any evidence of understaffed trains?

Perhaps I've been using a different Northern Rail

 

[steadmane]

So it's an acceptance of late, overcrowded, dirty trains up North then as long as they can carry on with their interesting fare collection practices?

On the few times I've used that operator this year once it was so unimaginably overcrowded that my opinions changed of South and Southeastern even during the Olympics. Anyone who says that Northern don't have a problem with filthy trains inside and out must be pretty deluded.

 

[craigwilson]

1. Don't think I've ever had to stand on a Northern service [though I have seen overcrowded trains at the peak

Depends which line you use I think. I've had to stand on off-peak Sheffield-Manchester stoppers before now.

 

[northwichcat]

4. Any evidence of understaffed trains?

There wouldn't be many Northern train services could be understaffed. If the train doesn't have both a driver and a conductor then it is cancelled, even if that means a driver is sitting around in a mess room for 3 hours instead of doing a return working. Some trains are booked to have a second conductor to do only revenue duties (subject to availability), although these are a small proportion of services and they are busy services so it's not always easy for the passengers to see whether or not there is a second conductor.

 

[tbtc]

4. Any evidence of understaffed trains?

Not officially.

But the problem that Northern have is that they have no DOO, and the guard needs to "dispatch" many trains...

...meaning that they need to be at the rear of the train at each station, which (given frequent stops on a lot of services means they may not get to the front coach very often - or the front unit in the case of a doubled up Pacer).

So, since the Unions insist that "safety" is the responsibility of the Guard, and the types of train used, you can often travel in the front coach without getting your ticket checked.

I've argued in the past that if Northern are going to keep this arrangement where ticket checking isn't a priority for guards (despite DOO working pretty well elsewhere...) one solution would be to have a "hit squad" of ticket checkers shuttling between Stockport and Manchester/ between Wakefield and Leeds/ between Bolton and Manchester (etc), since a lot of tickets just aren't being checked.

So, whilst they have enough staff to "man" trains, that's not the same as having enough to actually check tickets (hence the need for a G4S barrier at Manchester Piccadilly etc)

 

[northwichcat]

I've argued in the past that if Northern are going to keep this arrangement where ticket checking isn't a priority for guards (despite DOO working pretty well elsewhere...) one solution would be to have a "hit squad" of ticket checkers shuttling between Stockport and Manchester/ between Wakefield and Leeds/ between Bolton and Manchester (etc), since a lot of tickets just aren't being checked.

So, whilst they have enough staff to "man" trains, that's not the same as having enough to actually check tickets (hence the need for a G4S barrier at Manchester Piccadilly etc)

Stockport, Man Picc, Man Oxford Rd and Bolton all have ticket inspections between the entrance/exit and platforms at peak times.

A few months ago Northern did introduce second conductors doing only revenue duties on the busier parts of the lines e.g. on my local line there should be 2 additional conductors at peak times doing Altrincham-Knutsford or Northwich then back to Altrincham on another train, then the same again but that's subject to spare conductors being available. I understand there's similar operations scheduled to happen on other lines.

 

[Max]

As somebody has correctly stated, this thread is a general gripe as opposed to a specific ticketing one, and I have therefore moved it to NR General Discussion.

 

[Jonny]

Its the lighting that really needs sorting out on Pacers. Changing at Darlington from a brightly lit East Coast train to a Pacer that is so dimly lit its difficult to see to read is like stepping back into a different age-and very unhelpful to the area's image for visiting business people.

Or from an East Coast train to a pacer, never mind the lighting

 

[tbtc]

Stockport, Man Picc, Man Oxford Rd and Bolton all have ticket inspections between the entrance/exit and platforms at peak times

The idea I had was to check all of those passengers on journeys from Derbyshire/ Cheshire/ Lancashire (i.e. further out than just Stockport/ Bolton) who might not have had their tickets checked - as an alternative to the blunt "solution" of a big blockade at Piccadilly (etc).

Due to the large number of Northern stations with just one train an hour (if that) I can see why they don't have ticket offices at many stations. Due to the fact that Guards spend so much time dispatching trains from the back doors, I can see why they don't have time to always check tickets. But there has to be a way of ensuring tickets are checked that doesn't involve a human wall at certain stations.

 

[Starmill]

Personally, I'm inclined to accept your explanation, but the man at the ticket office is not! What a turn of events!

I am no longer inclined to accept any explanation for this other than "You profiteering *******s!".

There are actually posters going up saying that, for customers from Mauldeth Road, off-peak tickets will no longer be valid on the 0929 service. Nobody has noticed my rear end. Can I infer from your explanation, Indigo2, that the WTT will schedule the train in exactly the same way as the day's subsequent xx:30 departures? If so, there can be absolutely no justification for this alteration in the PTT - and I fully intend to let them know how thoroughly disgusted I am.

 

[Greybeard33]

But the problem that Northern have is that they have no DOO, and the guard needs to "dispatch" many trains...

...meaning that they need to be at the rear of the train at each station, which (given frequent stops on a lot of services means they may not get to the front coach very often - or the front unit in the case of a doubled up Pacer).

I don't follow you here I'm afraid. On the Northern services I use, the guard dispatches the train from whichever carriage is nearest to wherever s/he was selling tickets at the time the train arrived at the station. 142s and 156s have door control panels at both end doors, 150s and 323s at each cab and 323s also at one of the doors in the middle carriage.

I do find a bit irritating when the door release is delayed by up to 30 seconds while a ticket sale is completed - sometimes this can make the difference between catching a connection or not.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't follow you here I'm afraid. On the Northern services I use, the guard dispatches the train from whichever carriage is nearest to wherever s/he was selling tickets at the time the train arrived at the station. 142s and 156s have door control panels at both end doors, 150s and 323s at each cab and 323s also at one of the doors in the middle carriage.

I do find a bit irritating when the door release is delayed by up to 30 seconds while a ticket sale is completed - sometimes this can make the difference between catching a connection or not.

Certainly on 14*'s the guard always seems to have to go all the way to the back of the train to open the doors.

It's very irritating when you're waiting ages in the freezing cold/pouring rain for the guard to release the doors

 

[tbtc]

I don't follow you here I'm afraid. On the Northern services I use, the guard dispatches the train from whichever carriage is nearest to wherever s/he was selling tickets at the time the train arrived at the station. 142s and 156s have door control panels at both end doors, 150s and 323s at each cab and 323s also at one of the doors in the middle carriage.

I do find a bit irritating when the door release is delayed by up to 30 seconds while a ticket sale is completed - sometimes this can make the difference between catching a connection or not.

Certainly on 14*'s the guard always seems to have to go all the way to the back of the train to open the doors.

It's very irritating when you're waiting ages in the freezing cold/pouring rain for the guard to release the doors

Can only go on experience - am happy to be corrected by Northern staff - but they tend to stick to the rear coach/ dispatch from the rear doors.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Pacers they have to dispatch from the rear IIRC, other classes can be done from wherever controls allow.