Northern Rail: The most cynical TOC out there?

[scipiiouse]

Sounds just like the old days of "secondary action" in industrial disputes...

Ahah, I put that? I meant ticket!

Freudian slip I guess

 

[34D]

Yeah. At home, 90% of the services to my nearest town are London Midland, and here the vast majority are Northern Rail. Mauldeth road is pretty much a commuter station. If I ever travel from my home station to Mauldeth, I take a Cross Country train which travels past Mauldeth to Piccadilly, at which point I have to take a Northern Rail service back in the same direction.

Erm I hope you don't travel on one of the XC services that go via Styal, as you would then be doing a double-back.

 

[Chapeltom]

Nothing beats a good old, typical moan about Northern eh? I use their services frequently and I'd rather have the service than not, I'm just thankful trains in this country are so frequent. I generally enjoy travelling with Northern, so won't complain.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I won't 'have a moan' but I do find it very dissapointing that we, as a nation, have been unable to bring enough new and additional rolling-stock onto our railways to improve capacity and comfort; even in the 'boom' years of real estate investment across much of the UK, we still didn't manage to finance a few hundred more trains (though I do seem to remember that the Governement often talked about it, even boasted about it).

It just happens that the UK Government and our legacy of (under-)investment has left the oldest and shortest trains to the likes of Northern Rail.

The situation in which we find ourselves, with largely unnoccupied new 'business parks' and hard-to-fill retail parks while no more capacity to meet the daily demand on the railways, tells me more about our misdirected incentivisation and regeneration strategies of the past 20 years than it does about Northern Rail.

But I'm still eager to learn in what sense the Company has been 'cynical', though. I'm intriged!

 

[scipiiouse]

Nothing beats a good old, typical moan about Northern eh? I use their services frequently and I'd rather have the service than not, I'm just thankful trains in this country are so frequent. I generally enjoy travelling with Northern, so won't complain.

I think I find it more striking because for the first 20 years of my life, I never really used public transport. I boarded at school so never bore witness to the infamous schoolbus, and outside of University, I tend to drive everywhere (splitting petrol between two or three people tends to be much cheaper than a train ticket), and for the flak London Midland have been getting in recent weeks, during the rare times I used trains, I found their carriages to be comfortable and they ran smoothly. I dunno. Maybe Northern is the norm.

Also, my journey in this morning was something of a mess when it came to ticketing. According to the signs, if the ticket booth is open you MUST buy a ticket before travelling, but there was a guard on the train selling tickets, then there was nobody at Piccadilly to check them. Odd.

This is a problem I did have on London Midland. Whilst I'm sure Ticket legislation is in place in theory, execution seems to be incredibly arbitrary.

 

[Deerfold]

The biggest problem with Northern was it being let as a no-growth franchise despite many calls at the time, not least from the PTEs for this not to be done. With 40% growth in passenger numbers since the franchise was let in 2004 (and 2 extensions to the contract being granted) and only a handful of extra services and carriages (many of these paid for by PTEs) they've become very busy across much of their network.

 

[tbtc]

Is that just for Northern services or including other operator's services like the Virgin Pendolinos, which have plenty of spare capacity on northbound services in the morning peak?

All TOCs - but Northern's services into Manchester at rush hour clearly outnumber the three Pendolini an hour by some distance, so there appear to be plenty of Northern services with spare seats even during Manchester's rush hour.

It's also quite common for official passenger counts to be done based on the loading on arrival in Manchester in the morning peak. That gets the highest number on services which have come from Buxton or Bolton but is an ineffective method of counting on the Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool line and the Manchester-Altrincham-Chester line

Why are the Cheshire services different?

 

[scrapy]

All TOCs - but Northern's services into Manchester at rush hour clearly outnumber the three Pendolini an hour by some distance, so there appear to be plenty of Northern services with spare seats even during Manchester's rush hour.



Why are the Cheshire services different?

Thie Mid Cheshire Line interchanges with Metrolink at Altrincham before taking a longer route than Metrolink into Manchester via Stockport, therefore over 50% of commuters change at Altrincham and continue into Manchester via Metrolink. Of the people still on the train around half leave at Stockport (whereas few get on as they prefer the quicker Virgin services) meaning the train from Stockport to Manchester is usually less than half full,even though it was previously jammed between Knutsford and Altrincham and most seats taken betwen Altrincham and Stockport.

Other services from Cheshire eg those from Crewe or Macclesfield generally are busiest approaching Manchester.

TFGM are probably unwilling to fund extra carriages as services are generally only full for a short distance (within their boundarys) and transport is way down Cheshire East councils list of priorities.

 

[SGS]

I won't 'have a moan' but I do find it very dissapointing that we, as a nation, have been unable to bring enough new and additional rolling-stock onto our railways to improve capacity and comfort; even in the 'boom' years of real estate investment across much of the UK, we still didn't manage to finance a few hundred more trains (though I do seem to remember that the Governement often talked about it, even boasted about it).

It just happens that the UK Government and our legacy of (under-)investment has left the oldest and shortest trains to the likes of Northern Rail.

It's interesting that while Northern is regarded as a no-growth, high-subsidy backwater, with everyone's cast-off rolling stock, it provides the bulk of urban local rail services in Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Bradford, and a proportion of them in Liverpool and Newcastle. These are not insignificant places! Although Northern have obtained more rolling stock, and even with EMUs to come, I think those cities deserve a little better.

 

[northwichcat]

Why are the Cheshire services different?

In the case of the Warrington line - Trafford Park is a source of employment and there are similar sized cities at both ends of the line so there isn't really a counter-peak flow.

The Mid Cheshire Line interchanges with Metrolink at Altrincham before taking a longer route than Metrolink into Manchester via Stockport, therefore over 50% of commuters change at Altrincham and continue into Manchester via Metrolink.

Note that not every one alighting at Altrincham is travelling to Manchester. A number of people work in the Old Trafford/Stretford area, some make a further change at Cornbrook for Salford Quays and some work in Altrincham itself.

Of the people still on the train around half leave at Stockport (whereas few get on as they prefer the quicker Virgin services)

Of course with only half the peak time services continuing beyond Stockport commuters who don't have flexitime don't have much choice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's interesting that while Northern is regarded as a no-growth, high-subsidy backwater, with everyone's cast-off rolling stock, it provides the bulk of urban local rail services in Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Bradford, and a proportion of them in Liverpool and Newcastle. These are not insignificant places! Although Northern have obtained more rolling stock, and even with EMUs to come, I think those cities deserve a little better.

Note that local fares fully within West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Tyne & Wear, Greater Manchester and Merseyside all get heavily subsided to attract public transport use.

 

[Deerfold]

Of course with only half the peak time services continuing beyond Stockport commuters who don't have flexitime don't have much choice.

Presumably on those services everyone gets off, rather than just 50% of people!

Note that local fares fully within West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Tyne & Wear, Greater Manchester and Merseyside all get heavily subsided to attract public transport use.

Though I suspect not as heavily as they once were.

 

[northwichcat]

Though I suspect not as heavily as they once were.

The West Yorkshire ones were very heavily subsided at one point but they had to reduce the subsidy to be able to fund extra carriages. I think West Yorks is the only PTE area that has seen a fare rise above the standard formula for fare rises.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TFGM are probably unwilling to fund extra carriages as services are generally only full for a short distance (within their boundarys) and transport is way down Cheshire East councils list of priorities.

Forgot to say before. While Cheshire East don't spend enough on public transport, getting the Trafford children to school in Cheshire is the responsibility of TfGM (as Trafford council's transport responsibilities pass on to TfGM) and not Cheshire East council.

All TOCs - but Northern's services into Manchester at rush hour clearly outnumber the three Pendolini an hour by some distance, so there appear to be plenty of Northern services with spare seats even during Manchester's rush hour.

What definition was used for rush hour?

Arrivals between 06:30 and 09:30 (the morning peak period for pricing) would give a very different figure to those arriving between 08:15 and 09:15.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....(internet searches tell me it costs £20 a month to rent one).....

Do you know it works with Northern's ticket machines? How many do you think Northern need? One?

If it is £20 a month it is £240 a year for one machine, that's £2,400 for ten machines, £24,000 for 100 machines. I'm not a betting man, but I'd wager they need more than 100, so that small £20 per machine per month really adds up.

I'm told Northern can't get hold of the machines they have been using and are currently testing new ones for use across the network. The issue is far more widespread than one station, but it is being looked at seriously!

 

[Butts]

Northerns Stations are not up to much either from my experience....

Alnmouth - Train Indicator Boards not working for months with no staff in the Evening (witnessed 9 days ago)

Morpeth - Train Indicator Boards not working on my visit 9 days ago and no staff present in the Evening.

I don't know if this is typical but just my experience.

 

[Starmill]

Hahah. No seats on the 08:30? I got one this morning. A 323s 3+2 is your friend! You'll have to shove, but people leave free seats so they can put down their bags and spread out. Don't allow it; just push towards a seat. If a 15x turns up its a different story.

Want to use the up and coming 09:29? Buy an off-peak ticket on the Northern website, collect it from the TVM at MAU et voilà off-peak price paid. It won't be checked on the train and G4S at Piccadilly won't know any better!

Note that Mauldeth Road does indeed have buy-before you board posters, a (crappy, but better than nowt) card-only TVM and (inadequate, but reasonable) ticket office opening hours of: Monday-Friday 07:10-13:50 - plus the friendliest ticket clerk I've ever known.

 

[jonbyrne]

I have started a reply to this thread but I didn't want it to sound like a I'm alright jack kind of guy.

My experience with Northern mostly on my daily commute Stockport - Manchester. I would say 70% of the to Manchester journeys and almost 100% of the back journeys in the last 3 years have been on Northern, I do have additional choice of Virgin, XC and EMT in my travel windows. We know there could be improvements in the stock but the staff and service are pretty good.

The £78 I pay a month Is far cheaper than running a 2nd car, parking etc

 

[Deerfold]

Want to use the up and coming 09:29? Buy an off-peak ticket on the Northern website, collect it from the TVM at MAU et voilà off-peak price paid. It won't be checked on the train and G4S at Piccadilly won't know any better!

While the odds on being caught may be low, if you are I'd say that's probably very good proof of "intent" to avoid the correct fare. If Northern could prove you did it with any regularity (I'm sure times tickets were printed could be obtained easily) they might want to make an example of you.

 

[maniacmartin]

The date and time of printing is in small print on the bottom of all tickets I've seen

 

[Deerfold]

The date and time of printing is in small print on the bottom of all tickets I've seen

Yes - but I was referring to the times other off-peak tickets might have been printed. If they were regularly just before the last peak train this could suggest a pattern.

 

[eastdyke]

The date and time of printing is in small print on the bottom of all tickets I've seen

And if bought on the internet then quite possibly your name as well?

 

[Silv1983]

Here's my 10 pence worth with a view from the inside..

- The fact their services have too few carriages (I've yet to get a seat on my daily communte)

As already mentioned: Northern have "suffered" an unanticipated (by the government) growth in passenger numbers of nearly 40% over 10 years - and despite the wishes of the company there is no spare stock to poach anywhere. They have to make do with what is available unfortunately from the government. Frustrating I know but it's not Northern being ignorant to your wishes for a seat.

- Their trains are never on time (Almost every day the train gets in at least 5 minutes late)

Usually Network Rail's fault. This morning I was held at Marsden by the signaller during a Huddersfield to Victoria turn for 5 minutes to allow a late running TPE express to run through. This is extremely common as local stopping services come last to express and freight.

- Their carriages are old, dirty and poorly maintained (I along with several other commuters almost missed our stop because the door wouldn't open)

You didn't nearly "miss" your stop. The doors can be released manually if faulty. The trains are cleaned inside every day, funnily enough This morning the train I took to Huddersfield - the first trip of its day - was spotless from the off. When changing ends at Huddersfield: it was full of newspapers, wrappers and dirty coffee cups. Northern's fault?
Externally - the trains are cleaned regularly (almost daily infact) but the network is wet and mucky in the winter and dusty in the summer. Autoglym HD wax is not an option! If you drove hundreds of miles each day in your car - it wouldn't be clean. I agree they're held together with paint and vinyl flooring - but again, you can't polish a t**d!

- They seem to be understaffed (There was a fuss because London Midland wouldn't travel without guards, but I VERY rarely see them at all on Northern Rail)

Without a guard or driver the service is cancelled - and as you've not mentioned cancelled services I think it's safe to say this remark wasn't thought through properly (plus you talked about the guards being pleasant: contradiction?). I can safely say, that unlike our London Midland counterparts - there are no staff issues. They are one of the most frequent recruiters and trainers of train crew.

Hope this helps

 

[Paul Kelly]

On stoppers an 09:29 time can mean different things. The arrival time may be 09:28:30 meaning the departure time is 09:29:00 or it may be 09:29:00 arrival and 09:29:30 departure, so it could only be a 30 second tweak.

It's not that hard to actually check rather than just speculating though!

From the December timetable update, every hour from 07:30 to 18:30 there is a train scheduled to arrive (in the working timetable) at 29 1/2 minutes past the hour, and to depart at half past the hour. Every hour this is shown in the public timetable as an arrival and departure time of xx:30, EXCEPT for the 09:29 departure, which is shown as 09:29 even though the departure time in the working timetable is 30 minutes past, just as in every other hour.

I can see why that would make people cynical, but with these sort of things I would always be wary of suggesting conspiracy when things can be adequately explained by cock-up. Here is my explanation:

In the current timetable, the 09:30 departure is an exception to every other, in that in the working timetable it is scheduled to arrive at 09:30 1/2 and depart at 09:31, i.e. 1 minute later than the corresponding arrival/departure times in every other hour. But the public arrival/departure times are still shown as 09:30, presumably in order to maintain easily-remembered clockface departure times.

In the December update the 09:30 departure has had its working time re-timed to be 1 minute earlier for consistency with all the other hours, but this must have caused the public departure time to be somehow automatically also re-timed 1 minute earlier (perhaps by some computer software?) and no one has really noticed.

Or does the OP have some evidence that the intention really is to ensure that off-peak fares from Mauldeth Road to Manchester Central Zone are not valid on this train? I don't think I am quite cynical enough to believe that.

 

[beeza1]

Northern pre-tax profits £38.5m, down 4% on the previous year, shareholder dividends £27.6m UP almost 25% on the previous year. (source Yorkshire Post newspapers Sept 2012).

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think this could be one for Barry Doe actually!

 

[WestCoast]

They're not cynical, they're just incompetent. Worst TOC I have ever experienced, and from my friends on Facebook and Twitter, worst TOC by miles (which is ironic, because their shaky carriages rarely make it miles)

I've been silenced and censored for criticising them on this forum so I'll just leave it there.

You can't expect your posts to go unchallenged. Northern's stock and the condition they are kept in is their main exceptional failing and sets them apart from e.g. TPE. Apart from that, they aren't that much different to other 'local' operators out there. Read LM's Facebook page and Twitter page!

I'm an ex-Northern commuter, now a regular on London Midland's Cross City line. I can't say I've ever had to queue for 15 minutes to buy a ticket at a Northern-operated station, nor have I experienced regular weekend cancellations due to "lack of available train crew".

Perspective is everything, Northern aren't the worst. If Virgin Rail Group had to operate such a franchise, I sincerely doubt they'd do better.

 

[tbtc]

What definition was used for rush hour?

Arrivals between 06:30 and 09:30 (the morning peak period for pricing) would give a very different figure to those arriving between 08:15 and 09:15.

Services arriving between 07:00 and 09:59 - it's the survey that you posted a thread about a couple of months ago - http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/files/happiest_commuter_index.pdf

Northerns Stations are not up to much either from my experience....

Alnmouth - Train Indicator Boards not working for months with no staff in the Evening (witnessed 9 days ago)

I don't know if this is typical but just my experience.

You're basing it on a station that Northern serve once a day?

Thie Mid Cheshire Line interchanges with Metrolink at Altrincham before taking a longer route than Metrolink into Manchester via Stockport, therefore over 50% of commuters change at Altrincham and continue into Manchester via Metrolink. Of the people still on the train around half leave at Stockport (whereas few get on as they prefer the quicker Virgin services) meaning the train from Stockport to Manchester is usually less than half full,even though it was previously jammed between Knutsford and Altrincham and most seats taken betwen Altrincham and Stockport.

Other services from Cheshire eg those from Crewe or Macclesfield generally are busiest approaching Manchester

So half of the Mid Cheshire passengers get off at Stockport (fair enough - it's a big place), but the same doesn't happen on trains from Buxton/ Stoke/ Crewe etc?

 

[Deerfold]

So half of the Mid Cheshire passengers get off at Stockport (fair enough - it's a big place), but the same doesn't happen on trains from Buxton/ Stoke/ Crewe etc?

No, because they haven't had the option of changing onto a tram with a faster journey time who had already got off.

 

[Starmill]

While the odds on being caught may be low, if you are I'd say that's probably very good proof of "intent" to avoid the correct fare. If Northern could prove you did it with any regularity (I'm sure times tickets were printed could be obtained easily) they might want to make an example of you.

The date and time of printing is in small print on the bottom of all tickets I've seen

Yes - but I was referring to the times other off-peak tickets might have been printed. If they were regularly just before the last peak train this could suggest a pattern.

And if bought on the internet then quite possibly your name as well?

In case any Northern staff have sat up at this idea, I should just quickly point out that my normal commute takes place at 07:30, the only reason I was on the 08:30 today was because I was going to a function in town rather than my usual commute to Stretford. Still, since its the last train to arrive in Manchester before 9am, I was impressed with the service. I would never have the luxury of waiting another two hours, so off-peak tickets are a dream for me, in fact, you should see the stack of anytime returns I've built up! Been doing it for months on two tickets a day

 

[Deerfold]

In case any Northern staff have sat up at this idea, I should just quickly point out that my normal commute takes place at 07:30, the only reason I was on the 08:30 today was because I was going to a function in town rather than my usual commute to Stretford. Still, since its the last train to arrive in Manchester before 9am, I was impressed with the service. I would never have the luxury of waiting another two hours, so off-peak tickets are a dream for me, in fact, you should see the stack of anytime returns I've built up! Been doing it for months on two tickets a day

I wasn't suggesting you might do it, but would strongly suggest no-one else does.

 

[All Line Rover]

2. Nonsense. No TOC's services are never on time. Northern's MAA PPM is 91.7%.

I don't think this argument holds water. VT's London to Chester services are frequently just over 10 minutes late upon arrival at Crewe, yet remarkably arrive in Chester within the 10 minute PPM limit and are therefore classed as 'on time.'

Whilst with Northern a 5 minute delay might not sound like a lot, being 3-4 minutes late each day is frustrating for the regular commuter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes - if they're that bad, don't use their services!

If you live in somewhere like Buxton, I don't think that's an option, but moving further out to take advantage of VT/XC/ATW/TPE is certainly appealing if you just can't stand Northern.